These young girls travelling to Syria

yeah didnt the same survey find that the majority of them were opposed to violent action ?

according to this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31293196 95% feel loyalty to britain , 93% agree they should obey british laws and 11% feel some sympathy for those who fight against western interests

The other thing is that this survey was based on a sample of 1000 - not exactly a representative sample of the UK muslim population

Just had a look at the survey myself. Here's a shocker...

A strong majority - 78 per cent - said they find depictions of the Prophet "deeply offensive to me personally".

If anything, I'm surprised that it was only 780/1000 who found the depictions offensive; particularly as depictions of the Prophet Mohammed is 'haram' to Muslims. I don't know what this statistic is supposed to illustrate?
 
Does the survey specify from where they gathered their survey subjects?
 
'Our' way of life? Meaning what, exactly? Drinking alcohol? Eating bacon? Sex outside of marriage? Making profit in bank accounts? Mortgages? Accepting some people are gay?... Not agreeing with 'our' (Western?) way of life is too much of a general term. Of course, it's a great thing to use in a survey if you've an agenda. How was the Hebdo terrorists survey worded? 'Do you disagree with the cartoons Hebdo published of the Prophet Mohammed?' Either way, I bet I could go into 100 mosques and not find a single person who had been surveyed. Sample sizes are very important when making such sweeping generalisations. Furthermore, I have Muslim friends who were as appalled as I about the Hebdo terrorists. By your 'data', at least one of them must be a closet terrorist?

Sam
I said freedom of speech because publishing the pictures of their prophet was enough for them to murder. But yes, all the things we have in this country much of them you listed, are abhorrent to some Muslims. As the families of the girls of which this thread was created had no idea they had terrorist sympathies, do you this your friends would just pop their extremist views into the conversation ? ( I do not know your friends and this isn't meant to accuse, I am pointing out almost always, the family of a terrorist never know )
 
Can you provide a link for that please? - I'm betting there is no higher a % Muslim, then % Christian or any other religion with extremist views
Sorry no I can't, I came across it weeks ago and can't remember where. And as been pointed out many times on these boards, it's only Muslim extremists who want to murder those who they consider the enemy. That's a crucial difference.
 
I tend to agree with you - but if i was David Cameron I'd still have him shot - doubtful he could do more damage as a martyr than he does alive , he's clearly an enemy of the state and if he's british (I can't remember and CBA to look it up) he's guilty of treason

Last February I had to attend a Trauma conference at the Royal College of Surgeons in London. It was full of civvie and military folk and was largely focussed on medical research and developments which had come of operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. One of the speakers (I think his surname was Wilson... can't remember tbh) was a 'security advisor' for the Government. I didn't recognise him but I knew his voice from some documentaries I've watched. He spoke of 'terrorist preparedness' and disaster planning for the emergency services and the military yadda yadda, but went onto say how the biggest threat to the UK was from a 'marauding firearms attack' and from 'lone wolf' operatives... he said how intelligence was absolutely essential to combat these types of attacks. Now, I reckon people like Choudary are handy in drawing these nutters from under their stones and bring them to the interest of the security services. Therefore, whilst I support your sentiments, I think the clever thing to do is to let Choudary rattle on and draw all the wannabe jihadists out of the woodwork. Without people like him, there is no flame for the moths to gather around... that makes it harder to swat 'em.
 
Sorry no I can't, I came across it weeks ago and can't remember where. And as been pointed out many times on these boards, it's only Muslim extremists who want to murder those who they consider the enemy. That's a crucial difference.
For what it is worth, I think you worded the original response spot on. You are right it is a minority who goes as far to murder, however the sympathy for the reasons is indeed far more widespread. It is kinda if convenient I would think when you have a minority that does your dirty work and you can blame them as well. A cynic could see it as a win win situation.
 
Why would we need to monitor them abroad? - I would have thought that was obvious?... because they wish harm to Britain. That's why we have 'foreign intelligence' - MI6. Our intelligence services would be quite poor if they limited intelligence gathering to those only on British soil, don't you think?

To answer your points in their numerical order:

1. Yes. But were they groomed?

2. I'm not sure if 'we' can; I could be wrong but I think there is some kind of law about making someone 'stateless', so-to-speak. Furthermore, how would revoking their British passport neutralise them as a threat? If some shellsuit-clad illegal immigrant can breach our borders aboard a HGV and remain here until their asylum appeal, I'm sure a terrorist group could arrange something.

3. Ok, so without MI6 tracking them, how would you know who was who? What's stopping them coming back on the back of a truck without any papers or identity?



Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your point of view most are heading to areas where it would be very difficult for them to be monitored but as you say MI6 are already watching for threats .

1. What proof is there that they were groomed and to what extent.

I will give you that most are young and impressionable, we all have been at some point but most of us do not resort to the type of barbaric violence we see perpetrated by IS or whatever you want to call them or travel to support it. They must realise that decisions made come with consequences not just come back and everything is forgiven what does that teach.

2. We can the legislation already exists and has been use on a number of time all ready.

A brief extract: There is no entitlement to a passport and no statutory right to have access to a passport. The decision to issue, withdraw, or refuse a British passport is at the discretion of the Secretary of State for the Home Department (the Home Secretary) under the Royal Prerogative

Full text here www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-issuing-withdrawal-or-refusal-of-passports

3. We know who they are we allow them to leave we then withdraw their right to a British passport and use the millions spent on monitoring and paying for them to stay to increase border security
 
I said freedom of speech because publishing the pictures of their prophet was enough for them to murder. But yes, all the things we have in this country much of them you listed, are abhorrent to some Muslims. As the families of the girls of which this thread was created had no idea they had terrorist sympathies, do you this your friends would just pop their extremist views into the conversation ? ( I do not know your friends and this isn't meant to accuse, I am pointing out almost always, the family of a terrorist never know )

You'll find that there are many things which religious people - not just Muslims - disagree with in the UK. Why should Muslims agree with it all? I've already posted my criticisms of the survey.

'Freedom of Speech' - That's always a tricky one in my opinion. Does a line ever get drawn? Personally, whilst I don't know too much about the cartoons in question, I don't quite understand why they were published unless it was to intentionally upset people? I guess they knew how offensive they would be? By this (I hasten to add) I am by no means defending any attack! But if I was to get some holocaust images of dead Jewish children and printed flyers headlined 'Jews - Keep yourselves in Israel' - or something equally as offensive - is that still 'freedom of speech'? What I'm saying is whenever you have group 'A' make a stand for something, you'll have a group 'B' who will have something to say about it. There are abortion clinics in the states who will advertise their services and, as a result, there are 'Christian' lunatics who nailbomb them.

I very, very much doubt the terrorist's motives were purely down to the publication of some cartoons. At a guess, I would say they would probably have found something else to kill over if it wasn't for the cartoons. That wasn't Islam attacking... Muslims are not a collective, a group of terrorists did the killing.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure my friends aren't on some MI5 watch list, but some of them are Muslim... I better devise some 'test' so they can prove a negative. Equally, I'm pretty sure my wife isn't a child molester but I have seen in the occasional crime documentary that often the spouse was the last to know. I was always straight home then straight out when I was a youth; I rarely spoke to my parents or told them what I was up to. I can only guess the advent of broadband and smartphones has only made teenagers even harder to keep tabs of.
 

Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent” of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year, according to a report by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC).

The information comes from the 2011 NCTC Report on Terrorism, which is based on information available as of March 12, 2012.

“Sunni extremists accounted for the greatest number of terrorist attacks and fatalities for the third consecutive year,” the report says. “More than 5,700 incidents were attributed to Sunni extremists, accounting for nearly 56 percent of all attacks and about 70 percent of all fatalities.”

The report says that in 2011, a total of 10,283 terrorism attacks across the world killed 12,533 people. Terrorism also is blamed for 25,903 injuries and 5,554 kidnappings.

According to NCTC, of the 12,533 terrorism-related deaths worldwide, 8,886 were perpetrated by “Sunni extremists,” 1,926 by “secular/political/anarchist” groups, 1,519 by “unknown” factions, 170 by a category described as “other”, and 77 by “Neo-Nazi/Fascist/White Supremacist” groups.
 
Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your point of view most are heading to areas where it would be very difficult for them to be monitored but as you say MI6 are already watching for threats .

1. What proof is there that they were groomed and to what extent.

I will give you that most are young and impressionable, we all have been at some point but most of us do not resort to the type of barbaric violence we see perpetrated by IS or whatever you want to call them or travel to support it. They must realise that decisions made come with consequences not just come back and everything is forgiven what does that teach.

2. We can the legislation already exists and has been use on a number of time all ready.

A brief extract: There is no entitlement to a passport and no statutory right to have access to a passport. The decision to issue, withdraw, or refuse a British passport is at the discretion of the Secretary of State for the Home Department (the Home Secretary) under the Royal Prerogative

Full text here www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-issuing-withdrawal-or-refusal-of-passports

3. We know who they are we allow them to leave we then withdraw their right to a British passport and use the millions spent on monitoring and paying for them to stay to increase border security

Hi again,

In the usual manner...

1. I don't need proof, I posed the question. I'm sure further detail will come out in the news but, at a guess, I think something, or someone, must have existed in order to transform a British schoolgirl into a Jihadist Wag wannabe.

2. Yes, my apologies - I read into 'passport' as being citizenship. The latter, I don't think you can revoke if it renders the subject stateless. Again, I could be wrong on this.

3. If we allow them to go into lawless ISIL territory, withdrawal of their passport will do nothing should ISIL (or some other dodgy organisation) wants them back in the country. As I said, if people traffickers can figure it out, I'm sure terrorists can too. Although I'm unsure to why I need to justify the need for MI6, that's where they would come in handy.
 
Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent” of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year, according to a report by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC).

The information comes from the 2011 NCTC Report on Terrorism, which is based on information available as of March 12, 2012.

“Sunni extremists accounted for the greatest number of terrorist attacks and fatalities for the third consecutive year,” the report says. “More than 5,700 incidents were attributed to Sunni extremists, accounting for nearly 56 percent of all attacks and about 70 percent of all fatalities.”

The report says that in 2011, a total of 10,283 terrorism attacks across the world killed 12,533 people. Terrorism also is blamed for 25,903 injuries and 5,554 kidnappings.

According to NCTC, of the 12,533 terrorism-related deaths worldwide, 8,886 were perpetrated by “Sunni extremists,” 1,926 by “secular/political/anarchist” groups, 1,519 by “unknown” factions, 170 by a category described as “other”, and 77 by “Neo-Nazi/Fascist/White Supremacist” groups.

I'm not sure what point you think you are making - we all know that there are a lot of muslim terorists , however you've fallen into the classic "a lot of drug dealers are black therefore all blacks are drug dealers" trap of thinking

It is patently untrue that "only muslim extremists want to muder those with whom they disagree" when in fact you also get christian terrorists, jewish terrorists, hindu terrorists, marxist terrorists, and various other politically motivated terorist groups- all of whom want to murder those with whom they disagree. . Your own post proves this
 
Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent” of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year, according to a report by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC).

The information comes from the 2011 NCTC Report on Terrorism, which is based on information available as of March 12, 2012.

“Sunni extremists accounted for the greatest number of terrorist attacks and fatalities for the third consecutive year,” the report says. “More than 5,700 incidents were attributed to Sunni extremists, accounting for nearly 56 percent of all attacks and about 70 percent of all fatalities.”

The report says that in 2011, a total of 10,283 terrorism attacks across the world killed 12,533 people. Terrorism also is blamed for 25,903 injuries and 5,554 kidnappings.

According to NCTC, of the 12,533 terrorism-related deaths worldwide, 8,886 were perpetrated by “Sunni extremists,” 1,926 by “secular/political/anarchist” groups, 1,519 by “unknown” factions, 170 by a category described as “other”, and 77 by “Neo-Nazi/Fascist/White Supremacist” groups.

Are there any other kinds of Muslims you don't like?
 
Why would we have to monitor them abroad?
The UK has a global network of Embassies and Commissions, not to mention British Council offices, British companies' regional offices, plus millions of British tourists, business travellers and ex-pats. All of whom are considered valid targets by anti-British extremists.
 
Are there any other kinds of Muslims you don't like?

well ironically the Shia militias in iraq are now officially the good guys (ironic because US and UK troops spent quite some time fighting them in 2003/4 - this is classic the enemy of my enemy is my friend stuff)
 
The UK has a global network of Embassies and Commissions, not to mention British Council offices, British companies' regional offices, plus millions of British tourists, business travellers and ex-pats. All of whom are considered valid targets by anti-British extremists.

Not to mntion that most attacks on UK territory will start or at least be aided from abroad
 
I'm not sure what point you think you are making - we all know that there are a lot of muslim terorists , however you've fallen into the classic "a lot of drug dealers are black therefore all blacks are drug dealers" trap of thinking

It is patently untrue that "only muslim extremists want to muder those with whom they disagree" when in fact you also get christian terrorists, jewish terrorists, hindu terrorists, marxist terrorists, and various other politically motivated terorist groups- all of whom want to murder those with whom they disagree. . Your own post proves this
You posted a link to attacks half of which were from the 80's and 90's. I just pointed to another more recent survey. Hey, I even included the nasty white men in there too :)
 
A philosophical question to consider.

In the context of people we regard as enemies.

A national army are not terrorists, or can they be?

A national army has state support.

Terrorists have no state support, or do they?

"Auxillaries," "irregulars," "special" forces, "embedded agents," and so on. How are they to be described and by whom.

In short, is any statistic regarding "terrorists" to be taken seriously without close questioning?
 
Are there any other kinds of Muslims you don't like?
Haha a classic. Don't like the message so shoot the messenger. And for the record, yes, I don't like the type who hack off the heads of british citizens on their own streets. I also don't like the type who kill british aid workers who go into their country with nothing but charitable intentions.
 
You fail at this logic thing

Originally you said

And as been pointed out many times on these boards, it's only Muslim extremists who want to murder those who they consider the enemy. That's a crucial difference.

When i pointed out that that was b*****ks you then said

According to NCTC, of the 12,533 terrorism-related deaths worldwide, 8,886 were perpetrated by “Sunni extremists,” 1,926 by “secular/political/anarchist” groups, 1,519 by “unknown” factions, 170 by a category described as “other”, and 77 by “Neo-Nazi/Fascist/White Supremacist” groups.


Thus proving that it is not in fact only muslim extremists who want to muder those they consider the enemy , as arround 3500 murders from those figures have been commited by terrorists of other faiths/beliefs (also those figures don't include things like the LRA which are considered civil war rather than terrorist)
 
Haha a classic. Don't like the message so shoot the messenger. And for the record, yes, I don't like the type who hack off the heads of british citizens on their own streets. I also don't like the type who kill british aid workers who go into their country with nothing but charitable intentions.

Erm, no, my attempt at observational humour obviously needs some work. Nevermind.

I'm unsure to what your hastily wikipedia'd statistics prove? - particularly when these figures are products of war-torn and unsettled countries. Also, I can't imagine there are many who like people who hack the heads off people, or kill aid workers... but I don't get your point?

In living memory, people - who happened to be Irish Catholics - killed, injured and brutally executed British citizens. Do I have an automatic distrust of the Irish? No. Do I hold Catholics responsible for crimes committed by other Catholics? No.
 
You fail at this logic thing

Originally you said



When i pointed out that that was b*****ks you then said




Thus proving that it is not in fact only muslim extremists who want to muder those they consider the enemy , as arround 3500 murders from those figures have been commited by terrorists of other faiths/beliefs (also those figures don't include things like the LRA which are considered civil war rather than terrorist)
Then I'll retract what I said ( but I won't alter my previous post for others to see ) and replace only with predominantly. There you go, I'm nothing but fair :) Also, those figures will probably increase in subsequent surveys.
 
Hi again,

In the usual manner...

1. I don't need proof, I posed the question. I'm sure further detail will come out in the news but, at a guess, I think something, or someone, must have existed in order to transform a British schoolgirl into a Jihadist Wag wannabe.

2. Yes, my apologies - I read into 'passport' as being citizenship. The latter, I don't think you can revoke if it renders the subject stateless. Again, I could be wrong on this.

3. If we allow them to go into lawless ISIL territory, withdrawal of their passport will do nothing should ISIL (or some other dodgy organisation) wants them back in the country. As I said, if people traffickers can figure it out, I'm sure terrorists can too. Although I'm unsure to why I need to justify the need for MI6, that's where they would come in handy.


Sorry slight misread on my part but as I said they have to take responsibility for their actions and there has to be consequences for their decision.

They will either come back using said cancelled passport or a forged one(which I agree would be very stupid of them) in which case hopefully the new increased border security will catch them or if like you say they are smuggled back in and you don’t need to justify the existence MI6 as hopefully they and increased border security will catch them and if as a result of increased border security there is less illegal people trafficking well that’s a good thing. And hopefully there will be a lot less of them trying to get back.
 
Interesting to note that for 2011 there were 12644 murders in the US.
 
Erm, no, my attempt at observational humour obviously needs some work. Nevermind.

I'm unsure to what your hastily wikipedia'd statistics prove? - particularly when these figures are products of war-torn and unsettled countries. Also, I can't imagine there are many who like people who hack the heads off people, or kill aid workers... but I don't get your point?

In living memory, people - who happened to be Irish Catholics - killed, injured and brutally executed British citizens. Do I have an automatic distrust of the Irish? No. Do I hold Catholics responsible for crimes committed by other Catholics? No.
A smiley face would have helped :)

The page I cut an extract from was huge, it included lots of countries. Lots of people from these warring countries seek asylum here. Great if they come to join in. Not so great if they don't. Remember, Hamza wasn't so keen to go to Jordan where he knew they wouldn't be so easy going on him. We're a soft touch.

As for Ireland, the British Goverment capitulated to the IRA. Freed people who murdered, pardond those who could be found guilty of murder in the future and allowed them to keep one finger on the trigger whilst negotiations went on. I'm sure many Irish people know a whole lot about certain murders that took place, the same as some Muslims will know lots about atrocities that have taken place. Silence is guilty as far as I'm concerned.
 
Sorry slight misread on my part but as I said they have to take responsibility for their actions and there has to be consequences for their decision.

They will either come back using said cancelled passport or a forged one(which I agree would be very stupid of them) in which case hopefully the new increased border security will catch them or if like you say they are smuggled back in and you don’t need to justify the existence MI6 as hopefully they and increased border security will catch them and if as a result of increased border security there is less illegal people trafficking well that’s a good thing. And hopefully there will be a lot less of them trying to get back.

Somebody earlier raised an interesting point regarding British embassies and whatnot which of course are also targets. I guess the same is true for British businesses abroad and ex-pat communities. Either way, I think MI6 is as important as MI5 is for internal threats, regardless of our border control. Without them the UK's reaction time would be a lot shorter to deal with imminent attacks. That said, I always thought the 'war on drugs' reasoning for our involvement in Afghanistan was ridiculous... if that was the indeed the case then surely it would have been phenomenally cheaper, more efficient and certainly less bloody to choose tighten up our borders?
 
Have to admit, I don't remember that claim being made.

If it was, it's beyond ridiculous.
No, it was claimed. In practise though, the farmers were Taliban outside of growing season. It was realised that to disrupt them would increase their hostility so they turned a blind eye.
 
A smiley face would have helped :)

The page I cut an extract from was huge, it included lots of countries. Lots of people from these warring countries seek asylum here. Great if they come to join in. Not so great if they don't. Remember, Hamza wasn't so keen to go to Jordan where he knew they wouldn't be so easy going on him. We're a soft touch.

As for Ireland, the British Goverment capitulated to the IRA. Freed people who murdered, pardond those who could be found guilty of murder in the future and allowed them to keep one finger on the trigger whilst negotiations went on. I'm sure many Irish people know a whole lot about certain murders that took place, the same as some Muslims will know lots about atrocities that have taken place. Silence is guilty as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, you're right, a smiley would've been a good idea.

I'm not sure if you've completely understood my comments about terrorism stemming from Ireland? - I was saying that just because it was largely Irish Catholics attacking the British (British paramilitaries had a fair pop at Catholic civilians too) doesn't mean I have developed some kind of hatred of distrust for the Irish or Catholics. Similarly, if I was mugged by some black guy I wouldn't develop a hatred of black people. Maybe that's just me, but the same applies for my views on Muslims.

Yes, I'm sure there were some who knew the identities of Republican terrorists or knew of impending attacks. Similarly, I'm sure there are those who know rub shoulders with extremists... but I fail to see your point? Yes, turning a blind eye holds a degree of guilt but you can't go round being suspicious of people just because they're Irish, Muslim, have ginger hair, were born on a Thursday or have any other loose similarities with an offender.
 
Have to admit, I don't remember that claim being made.

If it was, it's beyond ridiculous.

It was something to do with 90% (I think) of UK street heroin originating from Afghanistan... our soldiers burning poppy fields, attacking the warlords who order poppies to be grown and the UK/US paying farmers to grow different crops. I think this was spun for us staying in the country. I'm sure Google will drag something up about it.

It's getting late but I just Googled this from 2001... not sure if it's got what I'm claiming in but you'll get the drift...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1575510.stm
 
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I'll leave my opinions on "The war on drugs" to one side.

It was my understanding, and I'm happy to be proved wrong, that the Taliban drove down heroin production and it has seen a huge growth since the invasion.
 
I'll leave my opinions on "The war on drugs" to one side.

It was my understanding, and I'm happy to be proved wrong, that the Taliban drove down heroin production and it has seen a huge growth since the invasion.

Sounds familiar to me too. Personally, I think spending a nano-fraction of the money we've spent 'liberating' Afghanistan would have tightened up our borders sufficiently, or paid for extra coppers, to at least have made a good old dent in UK heroin supply.
 
Yes, you're right, a smiley would've been a good idea.

I'm not sure if you've completely understood my comments about terrorism stemming from Ireland? - I was saying that just because it was largely Irish Catholics attacking the British (British paramilitaries had a fair pop at Catholic civilians too) doesn't mean I have developed some kind of hatred of distrust for the Irish or Catholics. Similarly, if I was mugged by some black guy I wouldn't develop a hatred of black people. Maybe that's just me, but the same applies for my views on Muslims.

Yes, I'm sure there were some who knew the identities of Republican terrorists or knew of impending attacks. Similarly, I'm sure there are those who know rub shoulders with extremists... but I fail to see your point? Yes, turning a blind eye holds a degree of guilt but you can't go round being suspicious of people just because they're Irish, Muslim, have ginger hair, were born on a Thursday or have any other loose similarities with an offender.
Well, when you have a community ( and I freaking hate that word, the Muslim community, the black community, the Asian community ) who choose to live amongst us, but not with us, that will naturally breed suspicion. If you don't know it, you don't trust it. For people outside of London, Birmingham, Leeds etc the only Muslim they will see will be the likes of Hamza and Choudrey. The only voices they hear from Muslims, are radicals. They hear the hate and they hate.
 
There are actually very good geopolitical arguments for a presence in Afghanistan

Just look at a map.

Historically, Afghanistan was the front line between The British and Russian Empires. Now, it projects power to Pakistan, Iran, Russia and Iraq. Not sure why our glorious leaders can't be a bit more honest about it TBH.
 
The only voices they hear from Muslims, are radicals. They hear the hate and they hate.

Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree.

The media would have you believe that. The media will focus on Muslim radicals. You won't read about the majority of normal, decent citizens who happen to be of the Muslim faith because it doesn't sell newspapers and can't justify military adventures.
 
Well, when you have a community ( and I freaking hate that word, the Muslim community, the black community, the Asian community ) who choose to live amongst us, but not with us, that will naturally breed suspicion. If you don't know it, you don't trust it. For people outside of London, Birmingham, Leeds etc the only Muslim they will see will be the likes of Hamza and Choudrey. The only voices they hear from Muslims, are radicals. They hear the hate and they hate.

Do you mean a 'community' like how we have ex-pat communities on the Costa del Sol?

Although I detest those kinds of phrases too, they exist... and I can see why. Mosques (as do Churches, Synagogues and Kingdom Halls) also serve as social hubs... people fly the nest and buy houses near their parents, second generations buy houses near their parents and grandparents etc. - it's human nature and how settlements have always worked. To be honest, it makes sense. Anyway, then you have shops spring up to cater for 'homely' goods... you get the same in the ex-pat areas of Spain selling Cadbury chocolate, Marmite and the red-top papers. The reason why it's so noticeable in some areas is because they're not of the indigenous white skin colour. Why should 'they' (many of whom are as British as you (?) or I) speak to 'us', why should it be us who make the first move if you feel they're insular?

As for 'not knowing it therefore not trusting it'... well yes, you've pretty much highlighted the problem. Although I'd suggest that's a problem with our outlook of the world, not theirs. Xenophobia.

Choudary winds people up. Airing his nonsense turns channels and sells papers. The media love that. I can go down to Speaker's Corner and shout all kinds of things... if no one listens then I'm powerless and my views are irrelevant; if the media stopped taking notice of him then he would lose his clout.

** SANDAL-SCANDAL! - Footwear thefts at inner-city mosques rise 3% on last year **

or

** Local Imam's fury as Muslim convert skips Friday prayers for the second week in a row **

See? Boring! People want to get angry, and the media know it. 'All is calm, as you were' stories are dull. The same goes for TV... there's loads of 'Benefits Street' or 'The Romanians are coming' type programs about showing the worst of people. We lap it up.
 
Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree.

The media would have you believe that. The media will focus on Muslim radicals. You won't read about the majority of normal, decent citizens who happen to be of the Muslim faith because it doesn't sell newspapers and can't justify military adventures.
I agree the media will focus on what sells. But, 20 years ago Muslims would walk down our streets wearing jeans and sweatshirts. They lived in the same streets as us. Now, they live amongst one another in major cities and wear traditional clothing. My point still stands, people outside the big cities only see and read about Muslims from the media. As you state, the media has to sensationalise to sell issues.
As for foreign wars, I couldn't agree more. Oil Oil Oil.
 
I think we're more or less on the same page, there's just a difference of perception.

Most Muslims still wear Jeans and sweatshirts, it's just that, because of media hype, you only see the ones in traditional dress.

"They" live more in the same streets as us than ever before, although ghetoisation is a long standing, global phenomenon.

Interestingly, traditional clothing is more popular in Muslim countries than previously. Compare photos of Cairo, for example, from the 70s to now.

Oh, it's not about oil.

It's about global influence
 
I agree the media will focus on what sells. But, 20 years ago Muslims would walk down our streets wearing jeans and sweatshirts. They lived in the same streets as us. Now, they live amongst one another in major cities and wear traditional clothing. My point still stands, people outside the big cities only see and read about Muslims from the media. As you state, the media has to sensationalise to sell issues.
As for foreign wars, I couldn't agree more. Oil Oil Oil.

Is it a case that there simply wasn't as many Muslims knocking about and thus their choice of attire wasn't as noticeable? Personally, it doesn't bother me what they're wearing - no more so than when I see a Sikh bloke wearing a turban or some trendy hipster sporting a beard... it just doesn't bother me.
 
Sorry no I can't, I came across it weeks ago and can't remember where. And as been pointed out many times on these boards, it's only Muslim extremists who want to murder those who they consider the enemy. That's a crucial difference.


I don't understand what the crucial difference is? Do you mean Muslim extremists are the only ones likely to murder? Every group has extremists who can and have murdered from them. Similarly every religion has groups who's interpretation is so strict it causes damage (without going as far as murder).

It's one of those highly dubious figures that can't be shown to have been said, it's not been said many times on here either. A quick search doesn't throw up a reference either.
 
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