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I wondered how long the mod patience would last and who would lose it first, I guessed right on the latter..............
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These young girls travelling to Syria
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I wondered how long the mod patience would last and who would lose it first, I guessed right on the latter..............
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I guessed right on the latter..............
That really didn't take much working out did it. It's always the same when people who think they know what they're talking about start spouting off. That's why I never really joined in this thread, I don't have the patience for such ignorance.
Lindsay D
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If I dare go back on topic for a moment ..... According to the BBC a man has just been arrested for aiding the girls in their border crossings, apparently he's part of a people smuggling organisation. I think that to engage with people smugglers takes quite a bit of organisation and coordination, to my mind that might be a bit much for the girls to sort out themselves. I'm still of the view that there must be a number of people involved in this. At this point I don't think there's any information available about whether IS directly helped with the arrangements, but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe they did not. People smuggling is normally an expensive game and we don't know if the girls would have had access to that sort of cash, but I think it unlikely.
viv1969
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You speak though as if the cash required to get to the Syrian border is vast. It really isn't.
They may have had assistance crossing the border, but with the right local knowledge even that's not so difficult.
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To follow that up, it was a news item on the radio this morning, they were elusive about the persons nationalityThe man is said to work for the intelligence agency of a country which is part of the coalition against Islamic State (IS) militants.
from the BBC (not Clarkson)
but said "they" were not from the UK or any other country, within the EU.
Nor would the girls be prosecuted if they returned to the UK.
Which was a kinda pointless statement if they were actually "trafficked"
But no so much if they went voluntary, neither scenario was clear from the report I heard though.
Keith W
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Or use that exciting new feature you mods have and selectively remove members from posting in the thread
Lindsay D
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It may not be vast to you or I, but this trip had to be financed somehow. They are schoolgirls after all so even if they had saved everything from a weekend job, for a year or so, they may well have fallen short. I could be wrong but I think I saw a news report saying that the girls had sold some family jewellery, but it's still unclear as to whether they had financial help from any other parties.
viv1969
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At 15 / 16, I could have found the money....and that's 30 years ago. And not by selling anything.
Lindsay D
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So could I, but I don't assume it's the same for everyone.
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The Jury is still out on that one Keith
We would prefer "some" people to act like adults, rather than sanction them though.
kendo1
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The report I read was that they sold about a thousand pounds worth of jewellery belonging to a family member, without their knowledge at the time. (Presumably their ethics allow them to steal, if this was true) The tickets were, apparently, in the region of £300 - £350 each.
viv1969
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We tried that with Jeremy Clarkson... [crossthreading controversy]The Jury is still out on that one Keith
We would prefer "some" people to act like adults, rather than sanction them though.
Lindsay D
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I haven't assumed anything Ruth - in fact I tend to preface my thoughts with 'I could be wrong/it's still unclear/I think/I wonder/they may well' and so forth, because all we can do at this stage is speculate as to what went on. I have my own opinions, you have yours, as do the other contributors - as I understand it the thread is about exchanging those views and discussing them. And it's been a good debate, until the sniping started.
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does anyone think they haven't gone to syria with the intent of joining IS ?
Bernie174
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It doesn't really matter what anyone thinks. What is important is whats provable. I don't think IS operate like the Labour Party for example, they don't have a register of members and cards handed out to people when they join. Given thats the case, you can't prove they 'joined' IS.
Besides, as I said, BHH and his side kick have given them a get out of jail free card.
As I said a while ago on the subject, there's SFA chance of these 3 being charged with anything, unless someone gets a picture of them without face coverings beheading someone. As thats not why they are going I don't see that happening.
Lindsay D
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I can't help musing on what those girls must've thought of the UK, and British culture, and what really drove them towards such a traitorous act. It also makes me wonder about how they might have been raised. I remain of the view that they made their decisions with their eyes open, whether they were groomed or not. Their age and intelligence level is such that they will have known the nature of the group they were joining, and their decision to collude with that group is depraved in every way. I'm still struggling to see how three sets of families had absolutely no inkling of the girls' feelings, and I wonder when the missing/sold jewellery was discovered. On the subject of missing things, it appears the girls' basic moral compass deserted them as well.
Meanwhile the families are doing a great job of trawling about for people to blame, namely the British police. Of course we don't know what will come to light - in a few weeks time maybe there'll be a story about how the police did have intelligence but didn't act, but at the moment I haven't seen anything like that being reported. It wouldn't surprise me if the families wanted to sue the police as well.
Either way, I regard those girls as a disgrace and they will probably pay a very big price for this little jaunt - and I daresay the UK will be blamed for it.
Meanwhile the families are doing a great job of trawling about for people to blame, namely the British police. Of course we don't know what will come to light - in a few weeks time maybe there'll be a story about how the police did have intelligence but didn't act, but at the moment I haven't seen anything like that being reported. It wouldn't surprise me if the families wanted to sue the police as well.
Either way, I regard those girls as a disgrace and they will probably pay a very big price for this little jaunt - and I daresay the UK will be blamed for it.
Bernie174
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I think you'll find that you've hit the nail on head, and why I asked what I did about why everyone seems to be hell bent on proving there was help and grooming.
The fact that these are apparently sensible, level headed intelligent people, and have apparently of their own volition run off to join a group that are so extreme is a worrying development. If IS can appeal to people like that, then they can very easily appeal to those who aren't as gifted. If that happens we, everyone is in a whole heap of poo, especially if IS get the boot from Syria and Iraq, and therefore have time and resource on their hands to be a pain elsewhere.
To be fair to the Families, I'd be interested to see if if they acted the same way if they had a better solicitor, not one who's interests appear to lay in the direction the families are now pointing, but we wont find out that unless they suddenly see the light.
Lindsay D
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It's tempting to conclude that the girls may not have been as sensible, levelheaded, or intelligent as some reports have been making out. And if they were, then they must have held the UK in such contempt that they were prepared to leave their lives behind.
I suspect the families are worrying that they might be held accountable in some way and would rather deflect blame towards British establishments instead. I don't think they want to face any responsibility or questioning about how these girls have turned out. Were the girls raised to love their country of birth, to respect Western ideals, or were they raised to always put Islam first, no matter how extreme? Yes, teenage girls are very likely to be impressionable in some way - but if they were groomed by a terrorist group then the people doing the grooming probably pick their targets carefully, perhaps because the target is known to be sympathetic in some way, or idealistic, or some other reason why they may be ripe for radicalisation. I'm just trying to figure out if this was a random thing entirely of the girls' own concocting and volition, or if they became part of something much bigger before deciding to leave the country. I suppose only time will tell.
I suspect the families are worrying that they might be held accountable in some way and would rather deflect blame towards British establishments instead. I don't think they want to face any responsibility or questioning about how these girls have turned out. Were the girls raised to love their country of birth, to respect Western ideals, or were they raised to always put Islam first, no matter how extreme? Yes, teenage girls are very likely to be impressionable in some way - but if they were groomed by a terrorist group then the people doing the grooming probably pick their targets carefully, perhaps because the target is known to be sympathetic in some way, or idealistic, or some other reason why they may be ripe for radicalisation. I'm just trying to figure out if this was a random thing entirely of the girls' own concocting and volition, or if they became part of something much bigger before deciding to leave the country. I suppose only time will tell.
Lindsay D
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I remember seeing that.
I could be wrong, but I think I read a report on the web news stating that the authorities had said that if the girls returned they would not be sanctioned.
Bernie174
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The Head of the Met Police, and the Head of Anti Terrorist Branch said that in evidence before the Home Affairs Select Committee earlier this week. So its a done deal.
Lindsay D
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So a traitorous act does not merit any punishment? Surely that will set a precedent - it's hardly going to be a deterrent. Why was that decision made - to avoid a backlash from the Muslim community? Maybe the police will be expected to say sorry to the girls for making them feel 'persecuted' by their country of birth.
One can only wonder about the likelihood of the girls getting away if they have indeed joined IS.
What every way you look at it those silly girls have enter a world of s***,the battle to take on IS has now started in full swing,and i cant see it stopping and i don't think they will make it back
Bernie174
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Yes.
There's a number of 'it could be' reasons. First the lack of evidence. And yes, not wishing to upset the Muslim Community is possibly amongst the others.
If simply thinking MI5/MI6 is watching you somehow causes you to turn from Mild Mannered IT support Tech to head removing Muslim Fundamentalist, then anythings possible.
Or wonder if they will ever want to?
Lindsay D
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I think that's one of the more frightening thoughts about this. It's tempting to feel that in leaving a civilised country and joining an unsavoury organisation the girls will immediately begin to suffer and feel regret, but I understand IS is a very wealthy organisation so I suppose it is also possible they may have whatever they need or think they want, providing they continue to offer their support and do the job they were recruited to do. If so, and if any return to the UK took place, I think there would be a public outcry if punishment was not delivered.
They make the choice, they suffer the consequences.
Not prosecuting them, FFS.
Actually they want them to come back and they will have s*** loads of people watching them, as they are unlikely to return and have no contact with these terrorists.
Not prosecuting them, FFS.
Actually they want them to come back and they will have s*** loads of people watching them, as they are unlikely to return and have no contact with these terrorists.
Bernie174
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I doubt we'll see them back in the UK unless 1. they are pregnant or 2. IS get the boot from Syria after they get the boot from Iraq.
In the latter, then we really will have far more to worry about than them. In the former, they'll be much huff and puff, and then it will die down in case the huffers and puffers are accused of being racists.
Yes, well, much as I agree, it is a done deal now. Sir Bernie HH, Commish of the Metropolis has said the words to the HASC, and thats screwed it. In the great scheme of things, its 3 silly girls who aren't that important to either IS or the UK. It's not worth losing sleep over what might or might not happen. Who knows they may spend their last milliseconds on earth reading what it says on the side of a 454kg Bomb, so we wont need to worry about them at all.
Oh dear, another generalisation.
I do not for one minute think that EVERYONE contributing to this thread thought that they had been groomed. However, if and when they get to the Turkish/Syrian border then they will need help because I do not think that it in any way resembles the border between say France and Germany.
I also assume that there is no regular bus service running between Turkey and Raqqa, and I don't see them walking all the way.
The truth is that none of us knows what has happened to them, but there are plenty of people on both sides of the border who will smuggle people across for not very much money.
boyfalldown
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Having crossed that border during one of the brief periods they weren't chucking mortars or taking potshots over it, and having a family member serving in the Turkish military along there its safe to say you think correctly.
Bernie174
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Generalization? Did I mention this thread in there? Erm, no, I didn't. Please stop assuming. I actually meant in terms of the press and Muslim community. But you could have cleared that up much easier than going on the attack couldn't you? I've explained the reasons behind it the point, so I am a tad lost about what point you are trying to make, assuming there is one, and you aren't just attacking?
I think you mean 'GOT', not 'when they get'. They have been and gone at the boarder. Please keep up.
Now, what exactly is your point? Without the attack this time?
kendo1
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It seems from your post that you don't think they crossed the border?
Lindsay D
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This is why, having been in two unstable zones myself (both a very long time ago, and nowhere near as bad as Syria) I cannot hold with the view that the girls simply toddled off themselves with no one else assisting them. Whether this is grooming or not is unclear, but somehow the girls absorbed the notion that they could or should join a radical group, and I'm guessing they were able to locate and communicate with facilitators while they were planning their departure.