And that is just the excuse which many Muslims give for the current atrocities committed by ISIL, despite the FACT that many of the fervent believers in radical Islam have been schooled/incited by extremist Islamic preachers.
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These young girls travelling to Syria
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And that is just the excuse which many Muslims give for the current atrocities committed by ISIL, despite the FACT that many of the fervent believers in radical Islam have been schooled/incited by extremist Islamic preachers.
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Again, shouldn't we encourage them all to leave rather than forcing them to stay and cause massacre over here? We don't need them, they can go if they hate us so much. They can even go to Mars for all I care about them.
boyfalldown
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It's not an excuse. There is no excuse for that.
Are you suggesting that without Islam in the current unholy mess over there then some group wouldn't be trying to exercise power and violent control in the name of something else? (Btw, no need to shout)
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boyfalldown
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Humans need to belong though. We're a tribal species. Much as we like to think otherwise.
My point always has been that without religion we'd just find something else to do the same thing, in the same places to each other and they'd still be the same people wielding power in the same way. Just with another name
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boyfalldown
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Bernie174
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You wouldn't need something else, ban Islam, and you'd have 10x the problem, simply because you have banned it.
So it's all a bit pointless saying that religion should be banned, because it's never going to happen.
So given we are stuck with that as a catalyst, and given that people have free will to interpret things as they like when you put the 2 things together there are some that will pervert the meaning, intention and actions of that faith. Thats where the effort needs to be targeted, changing/correcting/educating about the assumed meaning of the Islamic faith.
Lindsay D
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Going back to the matter of the three girls under discussion.
I'm sure this has been said but my view is that they are of an age and intelligence level where they become personally culpable for their own decisions, at least to an extent. They are of course at an impressionable age but nevertheless they are also at an age when they will understand right from wrong. They will surely understand the nature of murder, they will know what terrorism is and it's possible outcomes and consequences. Their decision to leave this country to join a brutal terrorist group was not a spontaneous one. Their journey will have been many months in the planning, throughout this period their mindset remained constant - in other words it was a long considered decision. I will also add that teenage girls generally find it very difficult to keep things to themselves and if their lives have been sheltered then planning a major relocation probably didn't come easily either. Therefore I find it hugely improbable that a number of other people did not know about their plans. Those people clearly failed to report this to the authorities and must in some way have aided and abetted the girls. I also find it very hard to believe that their families knew absolutely nothing of their activities, but of course that is simply speculation.
I've read that when recruits join extreme terrorist groups they are expected to prove themselves immediately, often via some sort of initiation process. I wonder what that might have been, for the girls. Perhaps they were handed a gun and told to execute a hostage, or similar. I also suspect that once you join an extremist organisation you can't simply go home when it all becomes too much - you're carrying a lot of inside information and the group will likely regard you as a spy, and so the chances of you leaving alive are probably fairly limited.
On the matter of religion - I'm of the view that religion breeds more division, mistrust, and discord than good. Ancient and modern history supports that amply. I have also experienced religious division firsthand because I've lived in many parts of the world throughout my life and I have also seen religious judgement and bigotry here in the UK - my positive experiences have unfortunately been few. In light of my experiences (and also the fact that I see no evidence to support the existence of deities) I have chosen not to be part of any faith. However, I believe in the freedom to choose one's beliefs, but I cannot help feeling that the world would be a better place if many religions did not dictate or impinge upon the company we keep, where we might live, who we might marry or divorce, and the rules we're subjected to. Religion has always been about power, and power breeds corruption and contempt - religion also breeds hypocrisy and extremism. Of course there are good people in every religion, but there are far too many who will use their faith to justify their actions - actions which are often unpleasant, repugnant, illegal, or destructive. I think the world would be a better place if religion were a private matter, not something forcibly foisted upon those who may not share the same set of ideals, because one religion is always going to be 'better' than every other.
I'm sure this has been said but my view is that they are of an age and intelligence level where they become personally culpable for their own decisions, at least to an extent. They are of course at an impressionable age but nevertheless they are also at an age when they will understand right from wrong. They will surely understand the nature of murder, they will know what terrorism is and it's possible outcomes and consequences. Their decision to leave this country to join a brutal terrorist group was not a spontaneous one. Their journey will have been many months in the planning, throughout this period their mindset remained constant - in other words it was a long considered decision. I will also add that teenage girls generally find it very difficult to keep things to themselves and if their lives have been sheltered then planning a major relocation probably didn't come easily either. Therefore I find it hugely improbable that a number of other people did not know about their plans. Those people clearly failed to report this to the authorities and must in some way have aided and abetted the girls. I also find it very hard to believe that their families knew absolutely nothing of their activities, but of course that is simply speculation.
I've read that when recruits join extreme terrorist groups they are expected to prove themselves immediately, often via some sort of initiation process. I wonder what that might have been, for the girls. Perhaps they were handed a gun and told to execute a hostage, or similar. I also suspect that once you join an extremist organisation you can't simply go home when it all becomes too much - you're carrying a lot of inside information and the group will likely regard you as a spy, and so the chances of you leaving alive are probably fairly limited.
On the matter of religion - I'm of the view that religion breeds more division, mistrust, and discord than good. Ancient and modern history supports that amply. I have also experienced religious division firsthand because I've lived in many parts of the world throughout my life and I have also seen religious judgement and bigotry here in the UK - my positive experiences have unfortunately been few. In light of my experiences (and also the fact that I see no evidence to support the existence of deities) I have chosen not to be part of any faith. However, I believe in the freedom to choose one's beliefs, but I cannot help feeling that the world would be a better place if many religions did not dictate or impinge upon the company we keep, where we might live, who we might marry or divorce, and the rules we're subjected to. Religion has always been about power, and power breeds corruption and contempt - religion also breeds hypocrisy and extremism. Of course there are good people in every religion, but there are far too many who will use their faith to justify their actions - actions which are often unpleasant, repugnant, illegal, or destructive. I think the world would be a better place if religion were a private matter, not something forcibly foisted upon those who may not share the same set of ideals, because one religion is always going to be 'better' than every other.
Bernie174
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Lindsay
Firstly, its possible that others knew something, but it is not a given. Kids/youngsters however you want to refer to them of that age do a runner all the time. Some are very well planned, and those from my experience are the ones who told no one. The success, such as it is, is from there being no one to grass them up.
However, even if there were others helping out, no one has any evidence against them so it really makes no difference. But one thing I will say is that everyone still seems hell bent on finding a way of proving this happened because IS, or someone acting for them groomed them. It is not necessarily so. In the same way as boys aged 15/16 were lying about their age and running away from home to join up in the Great War, there is also the possibility that they for whatever reason found that Fundamentalist Islam was attractive to them. I think the current fad for dismissing any thought that people can find IS something people want to be part of without being coerced, is a very dangerous route to go down.
As for what happens to them once in Syria. Again, from evidence given at the HOC Home Affairs Select committee yesterday, it seems there is no current intelligence or evidence that they have committed any crime, and will therefore be welcomed back as free women. Assuming of course 1. They actually want to come back, and B if they do, they can do so.
IS has for the past few months been encouraging women to join them, to provide 'Jahadi wives'. I think thats where these 3 are destined, not as infantry.
Firstly, its possible that others knew something, but it is not a given. Kids/youngsters however you want to refer to them of that age do a runner all the time. Some are very well planned, and those from my experience are the ones who told no one. The success, such as it is, is from there being no one to grass them up.
However, even if there were others helping out, no one has any evidence against them so it really makes no difference. But one thing I will say is that everyone still seems hell bent on finding a way of proving this happened because IS, or someone acting for them groomed them. It is not necessarily so. In the same way as boys aged 15/16 were lying about their age and running away from home to join up in the Great War, there is also the possibility that they for whatever reason found that Fundamentalist Islam was attractive to them. I think the current fad for dismissing any thought that people can find IS something people want to be part of without being coerced, is a very dangerous route to go down.
As for what happens to them once in Syria. Again, from evidence given at the HOC Home Affairs Select committee yesterday, it seems there is no current intelligence or evidence that they have committed any crime, and will therefore be welcomed back as free women. Assuming of course 1. They actually want to come back, and B if they do, they can do so.
IS has for the past few months been encouraging women to join them, to provide 'Jahadi wives'. I think thats where these 3 are destined, not as infantry.
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As i understand it the female .... ahem... recruits aren't there to join as fighters - the idea is that they become wives for the ISILfighters and breed the next generation of their version of the master race (The nazis had similar ideas), so if there's an initiation i'd guess its getting raped by a large hairy isis fighter (except in their context its not rape because women are property and have no right to say no)
they won't be able to leave easily because again they are property - by the time they realise what a terrible mistake they've made it will be too late to do anything about it. Part of me says tough s*** should have thought of that sooner, but another part says thats a very high price for being impressionable and easily led
Lindsay D
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Bernie, I didn't say that they had been groomed by IS, I simply maintained that three young girls who had probably lived sheltered lives would most likely have needed help in order to plan and execute a journey of this nature - and there is evidence that they had help given that they were met and transported across the Syrian border (at least that is the account I saw reported on the news).
Nor have I said that they were there to join the fighters - but nevertheless their resolve and commitment is likely to have been put to the test early on, whatever their apparent role.
Nor have I said that they were there to join the fighters - but nevertheless their resolve and commitment is likely to have been put to the test early on, whatever their apparent role.
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is joining IS not a crime in itself - given that they are a proscribed organisation ?
Grayman
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Can't disagree with you there.
Bernie174
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BSM
What constitutes joining IS?
Unfortunately, BHH has put it publicly, that at the moment, there's no crime, so even if they have 'joined' a prescribed organisation, they have a cast iron way of getting it dropped.
Lindsay
The help you think they may have had would be part of 'grooming', but as I said, you'd be surprised what apparently sweet innocent sheltered people are capable of. Yes, it's possible, but its just as possible that there was no help. Being met at the boarder isn't evidence of assistance at an earlier stage.
I'm sure it will be, and in a way that the 60's peace movement would have been very supportive of.
What constitutes joining IS?
Unfortunately, BHH has put it publicly, that at the moment, there's no crime, so even if they have 'joined' a prescribed organisation, they have a cast iron way of getting it dropped.
Lindsay
The help you think they may have had would be part of 'grooming', but as I said, you'd be surprised what apparently sweet innocent sheltered people are capable of. Yes, it's possible, but its just as possible that there was no help. Being met at the boarder isn't evidence of assistance at an earlier stage.
I'm sure it will be, and in a way that the 60's peace movement would have been very supportive of.
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Bobsyeruncle
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Bernie, why do you remove the names from the posts that you quote?
It makes it more difficult to see who said what.
It makes it more difficult to see who said what.
viv1969
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Bernie, why do you remove the names from the posts that you quote?
It makes it more difficult to see who said what.
Stealth quoting.
That way the person being quoted doesn't get notified and is more likely to miss it.
Bernie174
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The help you think they may have had would be part of 'grooming', but as I said, you'd be surprised what apparently sweet innocent sheltered people are capable of. Yes, it's possible, but its just as possible that there was no help. Being met at the boarder isn't evidence of assistance at an earlier stage.
I'm sure their commitment and resolve will be tested, in a way that the 60's peace movement would have been very supportive of.
But as Bob has caused me to re post my reply to you, perhaps you can answer a question?
Why is everyone so hell bent on finding ways of 'proving' or suggesting that these 3 were groomed (and I take your point thats not the word you used), and helped (which is your point) to do what they have?
Is there a reason why it can't have been a decision they came to alone, or within their group of 3, and in the same way as 100's of other 15 & 16 year olds managed to make lots of secret squirrel arrangements on their own, and then carrying their own plan out?
It seems odd looking at it as dispassionately as I can, that the help/grooming subject is repeated time and time again, even though there isn't one shred of evidence to support it.
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Bobsyeruncle
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Bernie,
You didn't have to fix it just for me, I just wondered why you removed the names, which you haven't answered
boyfalldown
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Bernie,
You didn't have to fix it just for me, I just wondered why you removed the names, which you haven't answered
'Cause that would be helpful, actually take less effort and would make it far easier to follow the conversation. And of course provide notification there had been a reply. None of which we can have, can we?
Bernie174
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Bernie,
You didn't have to fix it just for me, I just wondered why you removed the names, which you haven't answered
It wasn't intentional. It seems to not put names in when you use the insert quote icon in the new reply box. Simple as that.
Bernie174
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Do you need to to be told that someones pointed out you are talking rubbish? I would have thought you'd be used to it.
But as your over developed sense of entitlement seem,s to demand, I am happy to help you out.
boyfalldown
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right you are Bernie. Lets not use the forum properly but fling insults when someone calls you on it. Mature
viv1969
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And you reckon I'm insulting? Blimey.
Bernie174
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Well Viv, as it seems to be alright for you to do it, I thought I'd join in!
The plan must be working though, you said something relevant, thats a first.
Bernie174
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Bobsyeruncle
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Is that a site issue that should be reported?
boyfalldown
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stop doing what? Maybe (perhaps by PM) you'd share where I've ever insulted you prior to that post. Disagreed with you often but never actually thrown an insult despite your behaviour
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Bernie174
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I don't know.
So the above was by using the
was by using
If the second is supposed to add in names then I guess its a site issue, if not then it's a Bernie issue.
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Heres how I think quoting works.
the +Quote Quote in the bottom right of each post, takes the whole post and wraps it in a quote block with the poster's name at the top. Quote adds it straight into your reply, +Quote adds it to an "invisible list" along with any other +Quote youve done on other posts. You then do 'Insert quotes' in your reply box to put all the quotes in. Each quote will have the authors name preceding.
Fairly new to the forum is the ability to highlight sections of text in a post. Once you have, a dynamic "+Quote, Quote" box pops up allowing you to quote only parts of an entire post. Again these parts are preceded by authors name when they appear in your reply area.
The icon shown as the second one in bernies post, between the "media" icon and "drafts" icon, simply inserts "Quote" markers (with no author information) around any text you've highlighted in your own reply area.
I'll quote the following word 'terminator' using this method
HTH
the +Quote Quote in the bottom right of each post, takes the whole post and wraps it in a quote block with the poster's name at the top. Quote adds it straight into your reply, +Quote adds it to an "invisible list" along with any other +Quote youve done on other posts. You then do 'Insert quotes' in your reply box to put all the quotes in. Each quote will have the authors name preceding.
Fairly new to the forum is the ability to highlight sections of text in a post. Once you have, a dynamic "+Quote, Quote" box pops up allowing you to quote only parts of an entire post. Again these parts are preceded by authors name when they appear in your reply area.
The icon shown as the second one in bernies post, between the "media" icon and "drafts" icon, simply inserts "Quote" markers (with no author information) around any text you've highlighted in your own reply area.
I'll quote the following word 'terminator' using this method
HTH
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Bobsyeruncle
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I see what you mean. It is easier though just to do it the original way unless you only want to highlight a smaller section of text.
So nowt to do with stealth posting after all
Bobsyeruncle
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Not a site issue, and not a Bernie issue either, unless you were using the second way to deliberately "stealth" quote, which I'm sure you wouldn't do
Bernie174
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Yes, funny that, you asking a question without making a silly and insulting comment gets a totally different answer. Thanks Bob for clearing that up.
boyfalldown
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waiting with baited breath @Bernie174 - what am I doing I need to stop? Disagreeing with you? Its a discussion forum. Insulting you? I'm not sure how
Bernie174
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Hugh
You can disagree with me all you like. Thats isn't the issue, its the petty snide remarks that you and others need to stop.
In this case, it was "'Cause that would be helpful, " that annoyed me. No one is trying to be unhelpful!
And yes, on reflection, you probably got the flak as a side issue after Viv did her best to wind up things that have SFA to do with her.
You can disagree with me all you like. Thats isn't the issue, its the petty snide remarks that you and others need to stop.
In this case, it was "'Cause that would be helpful, " that annoyed me. No one is trying to be unhelpful!
And yes, on reflection, you probably got the flak as a side issue after Viv did her best to wind up things that have SFA to do with her.
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dejongj
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Of course it wouldn't be used on purposeNot a site issue, and not a Bernie issue either, unless you were using the second way to deliberately "stealth" quote, which I'm sure you wouldn't do
boyfalldown
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In that case Bernie, I'll apologise for that remark. It wasn't intented to offend. But I can see how it would.
I'll carry on disagreeing with you though. I suspect its something that may not be a rarity
I do always try to play the ball and not the man though
viv1969
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Nice late edit Bern.
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Honestly this thread is like a bloody playground!
It would help no end if one or two of you realised that you are not always right,
that your word is not the be all and end all, other people have "lived" too!
Either stop bickering or say bye bye thread,
your call.
It would help no end if one or two of you realised that you are not always right,
that your word is not the be all and end all, other people have "lived" too!
Either stop bickering or say bye bye thread,
your call.
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Please, pretty please....