These young girls travelling to Syria

I quote Marcel from a recent thread...

Anyone can have a different opinion as long as it's put forward politely, civilly and more importantly....in the right place at the right time.
Too much disruption and bad feeling on TP and it's got to stop. Bitching, willy waving and generally just 'not getting along' is not what TP is about. It's not why we started the forum.

We don't expect everyone to agree with each other but we do expect everyone to get along politely.

This isn't just about strong political opinions, it's about the behaviour of a few members that take it upon themselves to bully others because they don't like them.
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Byker sems to think that hurling racist insults around is polite and civil. I assume that from his time in uniform bullying and hectoring have become second nature.

My comments were not racist and could in no way be interpreted as such. Others on here seem agree with them, so does that make us all racist? Is everyone out of step except Byker?

I have reported his comments twice to the mods, who appear to have done very little. I have reported his comments twice to Admin who appear to have done even less - they haven't even acknowledged my reports. The assumption must be that TP and it's staff support Byker in his racist insults.
 
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mickledore said:
I quote Marcel from a recent thread...
Byker sems to think that hurling racist insults around is polite and civil. I assume that from his time in uniform bullying and hectoring have become second nature.
My comments were not racist and could in no way be interpreted as such. Others on here seem agree with them, so does that make us all racist? Is everyone out of step except Byker?
I have reported his comments twice to the mods, who appear to have done very little. I have reported his comments twice to Admin who appear to have done even less - they haven't even acknowledged my reports. The assumption must be that TP and it's staff support Byker in his racist insults.
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Do you seriously expect to have your report dealt with right away?
The mods and admin here volunteer their time, many of them whilst also carrying out full time jobs.
How about getting a sense of proportion and being patient?

Oh, and for the record, I fail to see how the comment you made regarding mud huts could be taken as anything other than a racial slight.
 
mickledore said:
Not to worry, they are all pregnant now and living in a mud hut.
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That is a sweeping generalisation of epic proportions. Have you actually ever spent any time in the middle east or do you base your views of the whole region on what you saw in Life of Brian?

That statement is ignorant at best and could easily be construed as racist.

So wind your moaning bloody neck in.
 
mickledore said:
I quote Marcel from a recent thread...



Byker sems to think that hurling racist insults around is polite and civil. I assume that from his time in uniform bullying and hectoring have become second nature.

My comments were not racist and could in no way be interpreted as such. Others on here seem agree with them, so does that make us all racist? Is everyone out of step except Byker?

I have reported his comments twice to the mods, who appear to have done very little. I have reported his comments twice to Admin who appear to have done even less - they haven't even acknowledged my reports. The assumption must be that TP and it's staff support Byker in his racist insults.
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Sorry been working.

For what it's worth I've not reported you - but have now. It seems to be the way these days that bigoted people think they can spout rubbish and get away with it, then bluster when confronted. I found your racist overtones (living in mud huts) overtly racist and offensive and pulled you up on it. I'm surprised you think others on here support your views. If thats true then I want nothing more to do with this forum.
 
mickledore said:
I have reported his comments twice to the mods, who appear to have done very little. I have reported his comments twice to Admin who appear to have done even less - they haven't even acknowledged my reports. The assumption must be that TP and it's staff support Byker in his racist insults.
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We have noted your RTM's the same as we have noted other RTM's from other parties.
We are discussing all aspects of the posts on both sides and we will act accordingly once we have reached a decision, on the best way forward.
 
fracster said:
That is a sweeping generalisation of epic proportions. Have you actually ever spent any time in the middle east or do you base your views of the whole region on what you saw in Life of Brian?

That statement is ignorant at best and could easily be construed as racist.

So wind your moaning bloody neck in.
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Please don't swear. It diminishes your argument.
 
Cobra said:
We have noted your RTM's the same as we have noted other RTM's from other parties.
We are discussing all aspects of the posts on both sides and we will act accordingly once we have reached a decision, on the best way forward.
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Thank you.
 
Ive resisted replying to this thread up until now...and thats what im going to continue to do :angelic:


...as you were
 
just had a read of the RTMs, the thread and the contact us emails.

Im not editing the thread as i dont see anything wrong in any of the comments. There are some HUGE sweeping generalizations in this thread, from lots of people, and some some of them are wandering a little down the right hand side of the road, however i think there is a good chance that if a couple of people went and had a fag and then came back later a little more chilled out then it will be all fine - we all have opinions, im not going to tell you what i think you should think until you are out of order. You're all adults, do YOU think YOU are out of order?

Dont lets start getting silly with ideas of suing people because that is going to get laughed out of court and it'll be expensive and silly. if you dont want to get accused of being racist/homophobic/PC/fantasist etc then dont post stuff that might be taken that way.
we are trying not to have to edit the forums like a CIA special ops report, so if you can avoid getting annoyed at each other then we wont have to.
 
mickledore said:
I quote Marcel from a recent thread...



Byker sems to think that hurling racist insults around is polite and civil. I assume that from his time in uniform bullying and hectoring have become second nature.

My comments were not racist and could in no way be interpreted as such. Others on here seem agree with them, so does that make us all racist? Is everyone out of step except Byker?

I have reported his comments twice to the mods, who appear to have done very little. I have reported his comments twice to Admin who appear to have done even less - they haven't even acknowledged my reports. The assumption must be that TP and it's staff support Byker in his racist insults.
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Your argument seems quite flimsy in that you are expressing indignation at somebody calling your post racist while doing the exact same thing? Or have I misunderstood your post?
 
Matt said:
he cant tell you that, or he'd have to kill you.
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Second new keyboard of the day required.
Clearly I'm going for the record!
 
Byker28i said:
Mickledore used it in a derogatory fashion with racist overtones. Sorry but thats unnecessary and detracts from valid arguments about these girls actions
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Having been to the Middle East, I can assure you that not everyone lives in cities with all mod cons. I very much expect that once you go a couple of miles outside Raqqa, you will find people living in buildings very much unchanged for two thousand years.

http://www.meda-corpus.net/libros/pdf_manuel/syria_eng/ats_eng_3.pdf

There is every possibility that they WILL end up living in a mud hut. The city of Bam in Iran which was destroyed by an earthquake years ago, was one of the largest cities in the World where its buildings were almost exclusively built from clay and mud.
 
Better get yourself a touch screen device with a waterproof case, Ruth!
 
dejongj said:
That is indeed what it seems like, and I'm convinced they've done that out of free will. But you know what, so what. As a parent I'll always be there to help them out when they do stupid things, it is part of growing up. This one is as stupid as it gets, but I would never ever leave them. .
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thats what parents are for

however society should act on the basis that actions have consequences, if a teeanger goes twocking and gets caught they face the consequence... okay so the consequencve here is more severe, but then so is the offence
 
andy700 said:
Having been to the Middle East, I can assure you that not everyone lives in cities with all mod cons. I very much expect that once you go a couple of miles outside Raqqa, you will find people living in buildings very much unchanged for two thousand years.

http://www.meda-corpus.net/libros/pdf_manuel/syria_eng/ats_eng_3.pdf

There is every possibility that they WILL end up living in a mud hut. The city of Bam in Iran which was destroyed by an earthquake years ago, was one of the largest cities in the World where its buildings were almost exclusively built from clay and mud.
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Given that isis fighters move arround theres a good chance they'll wind up in a tent, or in a shanty built hut at whichever camp their husband is at - when the husband gets killed in the fighting its debateable what will happen to them next - but it won't be good
 
big soft moose said:
thats what parents are for

however society should act on the basis that actions have consequences, if a teeanger goes twocking and gets caught they face the consequence... okay so the consequencve here is more severe, but then so is the offence
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Parent's cannot be held resposible - children/teenagers are beings with independent thoughts/actions.

However, my understanding of Muslims in my experience is their female children are closely supervised, picked up/dropped off from school, no going out in public sort of thing. Thus they wouldn't normally have lots of money given to them by family/parents as they'd have no need for it and the family to keep them under control wouldn't want them having it.

Thus who paid for these flights? Doubt these kids did, and 15yr olds don't get the debit cards you need to book air travel? Where did the parents keep their passports, securely or not? evidently not securely. Something just doesn't add up...
 
ST4 said:
Parent's cannot be held resposible - children/teenagers are beings with independent thoughts/actions.

However, my understanding of Muslims in my experience is their female children are closely supervised, picked up/dropped off from school, no going out in public sort of thing. Thus they wouldn't normally have lots of money given to them by family/parents as they'd have no need for it and the family to keep them under control wouldn't want them having it.

Thus who paid for these flights? Doubt these kids did, and 15yr olds don't get the debit cards you need to book air travel? Where did the parents keep their passports, securely or not? evidently not securely. Something just doesn't add up...
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You're assuming a great deal about how these girls have been raised Steve, and about their financials.
 
ST4 said:
So they've roamed free all their lives and had lots of money to spend on fags, booze?
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Just because that's what you might have spent your money on at 15, doesn't mean everyone does.
Why does it have to be the extreme end of either?
Can't they just happen to have been middle class girls leading (seemingly) middle class lives?
There are plenty of Muslim girls leading their teenage lives just like their non Muslim friends do.
They go out with their mates, they're not chaperoned.
They just happen to dress differently and follow a different faith.
 
Doesn't seem as plausible in my experience.
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In my experience, it's not unusual for Muslim kids to have money and or bank accounts. Or indeed white Anglo Saxon kids. Are they closer supervised? Possibly at times, but like all close supervision there're ways round it. My parents didn't keep my passport once I hit 16, why should a Muslim family be any different?
 
I'm not quoting government statistics but my personal experience of Muslim families is their male off spring roam free, their female counterparts are quite sheltered and the family supervision/control is very strong. It may not be the case here, but the question in my mind did spring up.

I find it bizarre any 15yr old would have enough funds to procure expensive flights abroad. I wonder who bought them? The grooming element may be ISIS husbands to be did?
 
viv1969 said:
There are plenty of Muslim girls leading their teenage lives just like their non Muslim friends do.
They go out with their mates, they're not chaperoned.
.
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but they tend to bethe secular ones, not likely to then suddenly decide to run off to join IS
 
dejongj said:
Sure it is incredibly stupid and dangerous to go out there. But so far there is actually no evidence that these girls are jihadists and until such time I strongly belief and would urge others not to give up on them.
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I think the fact that they have been in contact with someone who has also married into IS, means they haven't gone out there for a brief holiday and a visit. If you really think otherwise, I'd say you were somewhat more naïve than the three girls put together.
 
ST4 said:
Either they've been groomed by ISIS, or the family has sent them, or they've gone on their own free will
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i'd suspect a combination of 1 and 3 - but the point is that these won't have been the secular girls with plenty of cash and freedom that ruth was talking about - to be persuaded that life wis IS is a preferable option they must have been fairly religious already, and as you rightly noted the religious islamic families don't give their girls that much freedom. (as to how the flights were booked the police will bottom that out, but my guess would be that someone fronting for IS paid online)
 
ST4 said:
I'm not quoting government statistics but my personal experience of Muslim families is their male off spring roam free, their female counterparts are quite sheltered and the family supervision/control is very strong. It may not be the case here, but the question in my mind did spring up.

I find it bizarre any 15yr old would have enough funds to procure expensive flights abroad. I wonder who bought them? The grooming element may be ISIS husbands to be did?
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It is not that expensive to go out there. Heck I'm on a scheduled flight (for work purposes unfortunately) out there next week. The tight buggers only :) only allowed economy but that was only about £350. Not a lot of money these days.
 
big soft moose said:
but they tend to bethe secular ones, not likely to then suddenly decide to run off to join IS
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I'm not saying they can't be recruited, or that they cant become radicalised. Im saying that there are Muslim girls from devout Muslim families who enjoy far more personal freedom than many people seem to want to believe. It's not the Qur'an that insists that females are put under tight restrictions, it's family and community. Same applies to the dress code.

And Steve, I mentioned middle class only because that seems to perhaps be where these families fall into the scheme of things. If that's wrong, no problem.
 
ut the point is that these won't have been the secular girls with plenty of cash and freedom that ruth was talking about - to be persuaded that life wis IS is a preferable option they must have been fairly religious already, and as you rightly noted the religious islamic families don't give their girls that much freedom. (as to how the flights were booked the police will bottom that out, but my guess would be that someone fronting for IS paid online)
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Its really quite funny reading what a white male thinks of Muslim girls. Just as it's amusing reading the howls of those who simply because someone has decided to run off to ISIL, they must have been groomed.

Neither are confirmed, neither are the only answer and both theories show that in reality, very few of you have met any many Muslims.

As for flights, it is very very simply to book and board a flight. Especially for the 16 years olds. You book your flight on a debit/credit card. Most teenagers I know have the former. If asked for your DOB, you simply give one, any one you like. There is no check, there is no cross reference on that. Not even at Immigration.

I'm sorry but some of you, on both sides of the argument are showing distinct lack of awareness of reality. These aren't the first young girls, or boys, to have sneaked out of the UK. It's really very simple to do. No doubt they wont be the last. Because someone has decided to join IS does not mean they have been 'brainwashed', some have made up their own minds without any help. Muslim teenagers are just as capable of deception as any other race or group, and guess what, some of them have more than 2 and six in their bank accounts.
 
Bernie174 said:
Its really quite funny reading what a white male thinks of Muslim girls. Just as it's amusing reading the howls of those who simply because someone has decided to run off to ISIL, they must have been groomed.
Neither are confirmed, neither are the only answer and both theories show that in reality, very few of you have met any many Muslims.
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That is quite an assumption Bernie!

The simple fact is, that MANY (not all) young girls from Sunni/Wahhabi families (usually a Pakistani background) have upbringings which are far more controlled and stricter than their peers from outside that particular cultural demographic.
If they were groomed, then was it done locally or via social networking? It looked to me as though they went quite willingly and planned the "excursion" quite well. They may well have had their own bank accounts, but if someone provided tickets then a lot of money wouldn't have been a priority.
To go along with this willingly, I presume that they would have been quite serious about their faith, as well as having some misguided political ideology.
I still find it hard to believe that friends and family had no idea that this was going to happen, the same way that people who knew "Jihadi John" described him as an "angelic boy" and a "beautiful man".
 
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Bernie174 said:
Its really quite funny reading what a white male thinks of Muslim girls. Just as it's amusing reading the howls of those who simply because someone has decided to run off to ISIL, they must have been groomed.

Neither are confirmed, neither are the only answer and both theories show that in reality, very few of you have met any many Muslims.

As for flights, it is very very simply to book and board a flight. Especially for the 16 years olds. You book your flight on a debit/credit card. Most teenagers I know have the former. If asked for your DOB, you simply give one, any one you like. There is no check, there is no cross reference on that. Not even at Immigration.

I'm sorry but some of you, on both sides of the argument are showing distinct lack of awareness of reality. These aren't the first young girls, or boys, to have sneaked out of the UK. It's really very simple to do. No doubt they wont be the last. Because someone has decided to join IS does not mean they have been 'brainwashed', some have made up their own minds without any help. Muslim teenagers are just as capable of deception as any other race or group, and guess what, some of them have more than 2 and six in their bank accounts.
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Actually that is not wholly correct. Under the pre departure checking scheme a connection between the dob and document number is made. https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...nd-travel-bans-authority-to-carry-scheme-2012

And not only that in order to validate the passport the MRZ will be read which will provide the known facts that than allow the chip to be read as per the standards. So there are two checks of that already besides the visual inspection by check-in staff. The fines are pretty serious if they don't comply.

This has been operating very successfully for many years now. Albeit EU laws don't make it is and was preventing mandation on all routes.
 
andy700 said:
Having been to the Middle East, I can assure you that not everyone lives in cities with all mod cons. I very much expect that once you go a couple of miles outside Raqqa, you will find people living in buildings very much unchanged for two thousand years.

http://www.meda-corpus.net/libros/pdf_manuel/syria_eng/ats_eng_3.pdf

There is every possibility that they WILL end up living in a mud hut. The city of Bam in Iran which was destroyed by an earthquake years ago, was one of the largest cities in the World where its buildings were almost exclusively built from clay and mud.
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I've also travelled extensively throughout the area, so on hearing of the destruction and areas Isis are in brings sad thoughts.
The mud huts comment was made in a derogatory not factual way.
 
The trouble with assumptions is that is all that is left, as the parents are at a loss and don't understand, neither do the school, not any of their friends have commented or explained (or have I missed that).
Until we hear any further, speculation is all there is.
 
Matt said:
just had a read of the RTMs, the thread and the contact us emails.

Im not editing the thread as i dont see anything wrong in any of the comments. There are some HUGE sweeping generalizations in this thread, from lots of people, and some some of them are wandering a little down the right hand side of the road, however i think there is a good chance that if a couple of people went and had a fag and then came back later a little more chilled out then it will be all fine - we all have opinions, im not going to tell you what i think you should think until you are out of order. You're all adults, do YOU think YOU are out of order?

Dont lets start getting silly with ideas of suing people because that is going to get laughed out of court and it'll be expensive and silly. if you dont want to get accused of being racist/homophobic/PC/fantasist etc then dont post stuff that might be taken that way.
we are trying not to have to edit the forums like a CIA special ops report, so if you can avoid getting annoyed at each other then we wont have to.
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I'd like to know who threatened to sue?
 
Byker28i said:
I'd like to know who threatened to sue?
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That in itself was a pre-emptive generalisation, as there have been a couple or so threats to sue over racist / alleged racist comments,
and indeed people being called racist, not least in here but other threads as well.

Whether or not Mickledore's comment was intended as a slur, and whether or not you miss-interpreted his comment or intentions
are at best or worse, a matter open for interpretation.

Petty squabbles over interpretations are the fastest way to get a thread closed down.
As Matt has asked everyone to move on, I'll just re-iterate his comment.
 
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Fair enough chap. Apologies I was playing catchup after a busy afternoon.
 
Byker28i said:
I've also travelled extensively throughout the area, so on hearing of the destruction and areas Isis are in brings sad thoughts.
The mud huts comment was made in a derogatory not factual way.
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I totally agree with you on the destruction of ancient artifacts and the like, and this is something which we have witnessed before by another Wahhabi movement - the Mujahideen/Taliban in Afghanistan.
When you are in countries such as Iraq, Iran, Syria etc., even though you may one minute be in a very modern, built up area with Western style shopping centres and the like, it may also be that half an hour later you are in rural areas where the people are genuinely living off the land, in quite primitive dwellings and are totally devoid of any sort of materialism.
I also find it quite disgusting that many of the ISIL fighters come from very rich backgrounds, have been educated to a high standard, yet are using this religious/political ideology to murder and displace some of the very poorest people in the area.
 
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