These young girls travelling to Syria

I do not think it will turn out well, but I hope it does.

I agree with Martyn's comments in post 21 which is why I included my (a) and (b) reservations in my first post. Any control is going to be difficult but, isn't there something that could reduce the chances of this happening? However, I think many of us do not understand the world in which some live.

Dave
 
viv1969 said:
Who's to say they didn't buy their own tickets?
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I couldn't afford to pay for tickets so I would love to know how a teenager could :D

At sixteen I had my own account but I couldnt pay for a for a day return to the next town
 
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archangel said:
I couldn't afford to pay for tickets so I would love to know how a teenager could :D

At sixteen I had my own account but I couldnt pay for a for a day return to the next town
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Times have changed old fella :lol:
 
what a load of awfull and frankly dissapointting comments, young and easilly influenced children that have been coerced by bad people and jokes are being made.
I find this forum increasingly sad these days.
 
Mr Bump said:
what a load of awfull and frankly dissapointting comments, young and easilly influenced children that have been coerced by bad people and jokes are being made.
I find this forum increasingly sad these days.
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Why awful and disappointing? We live in a country with freedom of speech and opinion and in all honesty you can't please all the people all of the time........kids are no longer kids they grow up so much sooner than they did thirty years ago.....but that aside it beggars belief how 3 "kids" can get through airport security and also that their friends and family didn't notice any change of attitude.....I grew up in conflict in Northern Ireland and I never felt the need to "sign up" or be radicalized nor did my kids......in fact I took my son out of a religious based "community" group after they told him that he could have all the cola and biscuits he wants if he converts to their belief.....there are a arguments and reasoning on both sides but hey ho this is life.....
 
ancient_mariner said:
It sounds to me, from many of the comments here, that some have forgotten what it's like to be 15 or 16 and to feel strongly enough about what you see as injustices to do something. :whistle:
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I do not believe for one instant that this has anything to do with "injustices", but everything to do with being indoctrinated into a religion, being radicalised by an extreme part of that religion, and then thinking it may be cool to run away and marry a "warrior".
On the one hand I feel sorry that they have been brainwashed at an early age, but on the other hand they will be accessories to murder if they join ISIL, and I would say that anyone calling them "children" at the age of 15/16 in this day and age, is shutting their eyes to what young people have knowledge of and what they are capable of doing.
 
Mr Bump said:
what a load of awfull and frankly dissapointting comments, young and easilly influenced children that have been coerced by bad people and jokes are being made.
I find this forum increasingly sad these days.
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Knowing what I do about the religion (thirty years thorough knowledge), I doubt if they have been coerced at all. They have been contacted by their friend and decided that they are going on quite an exciting and hopefully romantic journey.
 
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POAH said:
because the bible is a horrific place to get your moral compass from.
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Generally not the church though, whatever the denomination and the bible has all life in it, man is fallible after all. The bible gives rules, provides examples through stories, and documents the history, much the same as the Quran, Torah, or the teachings of Buddha.

It not just Islam that has radical, forceful preachers. I saw billy graham in bristol, been to some southern baptist bible bashing sermons, love the evangelist (beware the temptations, celebrate with great singing), Methodist, baptist ( long, long sermons), right down to Christian rock (cliff Richard used to do a great Christian show).
I went for the music, but there's a lot of the 'Christian' church promoting the donation of money (generally to the church or mission)

Not quite sure why you say it's bad. This country stills wears oaths on it.
 
Byker28i said:
A grade students, all from the same school. There's so many questions. How did they get radicalised, who bought them airline tickets to Turkey.

Poor parents must be distraught
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I went to a school which had a significant proportion of people who were born, or whose parents were born, in the middle east. At the time of the first gulf war, I remember discussing an element of this with some of my friends with this heritage, and they had a completely different view of it. Our news sources were effectively completely different and many had a view that the mainstream news was purely a propaganda machine. They were intelligent, educated etc people as these girls appear to be so it was interesting to hear. Now none of them were likely to go and sign up to fight or even necessarily felt massively strongly against the UK, but my point is they did have a completely different take on things.

And in this age the media outlets are of course much changed with social media at the forefront in many ways and the 'ability' to follow people and or spread 'propaganda' is so much easier. The view of which side is propaganda, rightly of wrongly, will be interpreted differently by different people and groups. The question we should ask is why people believe one side more than the other. We can all guess at some of the answers, some which probably lie in some of the comments in this thread, but ultimately some proper research should be done.

Personally I feel sorry for those girls who you can only assume have no idea what really awaits them out there, and of course for their families for whom this must be awful.
 
For a significant portion of the world, western culture is decadent, wicked, cruel, abusive, cynical, corrupting and thoroughly evil. It isn't unreasonable for someone who is able to see things through eyes other than those of a European to reject it and chose to do something else, especially if they are a little naive and idealistic.
 
Byker28i said:
Generally not the church though, whatever the denomination and the bible has all life in it, man is fallible after all. The bible gives rules, provides examples through stories, and documents the history, much the same as the Quran, Torah, or the teachings of Buddha.

It not just Islam that has radical, forceful preachers. I saw billy graham in bristol, been to some southern baptist bible bashing sermons, love the evangelist (beware the temptations, celebrate with great singing), Methodist, baptist ( long, long sermons), right down to Christian rock (cliff Richard used to do a great Christian show).
I went for the music, but there's a lot of the 'Christian' church promoting the donation of money (generally to the church or mission)

Not quite sure why you say it's bad. This country stills wears oaths on it.
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the bible is horrific as are the other books of religion. it has nothing good to teach
 
POAH said:
the bible is horrific as are the other books of religion. it has nothing good to teach
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Crikey! I'm an atheist and largely anti religion, but I can't possibly agree.

There are many aspects of religious texts with which I strongly disagree, and many aspects which are deeply unpleasant, but to say they teach nothing is, IMO, too strong.
 
If these girls are wanting to join the IS who carry out such abhorrent acts as burning people alive and then broadcasting it then good luck to them. Personally I hope they have got there and never come back to this country. It is unfortunately only a matter of time until we see something horrific here. What I find so disappointing is the lack of the Muslim leaders to condem this type of action. If (actually when) we have an atrocity here we will see reactions against the Muslim communities which will be aimed at the wrong people and will make the whole thing worse.
 
Various great empires in the past managed to keep order without the bible - Persian, Greek, Roman, and they influenced the way we behave far more than the bible, which was only known to "ordinary" man some four hundred years ago.
As an atheist, I think that all religions command respect by frightening or threatening people, demanding that they follow certain dogma or risk unimaginable horrors.

The above all sounds a bit like ISIL to me.
 
Religion was a central tenet of Persian, Greek and Roman society with very sophisticated religious structures.

Religion doesn't do what you suggest, people use religion for that purpose.
 
@andy700 I find your post and the thoughts behind it very sad indeed,
 
Unfortunately, be them young and naive, or mature and evil, the result will be the same. If they end up with a suicide belt strapped to them, people will die...................
 
andy700 said:
Various great empires in the past managed to keep order without the bible - Persian, Greek, Roman, and they influenced the way we behave far more than the bible, which was only known to "ordinary" man some four hundred years ago.
As an atheist, I think that all religions command respect by frightening or threatening people, demanding that they follow certain dogma or risk unimaginable horrors.

The above all sounds a bit like ISIL to me.
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I've traveled a lot, religion is one way to get to know people, cultures. It's not the writings of the religions but they way some 'leaders' interpret them for their own ends.
 
rick448 said:
It is unfortunately only a matter of time until we see something horrific here.
[SNIP] ... [/SNIP]
If (actually when) we have an atrocity here we will see reactions against the Muslim communities which will be aimed at the wrong people and will make the whole thing worse.
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Have you been away in recent years?

andy700 said:
all religions command respect by frightening or threatening people, demanding that they follow certain dogma or risk unimaginable horrors.

The above all sounds a bit like ISIL to me.
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You are very far from the truth and have quite obviously never seriously considered the teachings and actions of Jesus Christ.
 
Does it matter if the Bible or Koran is accurate? Certainly not in this case, no.

What matters is the interruption of a religion and the way that is being used. We all know, or should know that Fundamental Islam is not shared by the majority of Muslims, but it is being adopted by some as "The way".

So the issue isn't should be a discussion over religion, right or wrong, it's how do you tackle the consequences of an interpretation.

Is anti radicalisation simply going to be seen by someone who has decided that Fundamentalism is correct as propaganda? Yes, in many cases I think it will be. When I decided at age 5, without any real idea why, I didn't believe in God, and told my Catholic Fundamentalist grandmother, no amount of clips round the ear, threats of going to hell or anything else was going to change my mind. In fact, it simply entrenched my position.

You can try and stop people leaving the Country to join ISIL, you wont stop everyone though. There's a lot of ways round that and not enough resource to plug all ways.

You can let them go, and withdraw citizenship from those who are identified, but the lefties wont like that, and it isn't legally possible at the moment.

So I don't know what the answer is. There probably isn't an answer in any case.
 
gramps said:
Have you been away in recent years?



You are very far from the truth and have quite obviously never seriously considered the teachings and actions of Jesus Christ.
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I was forced to follow the teachings from the age of five to the age of sixteen, at which stage I decided to abandon the whole "religious gig" because it really did not make me very happy. Any time I challenged the teachings at school, I was humiliated or punished - or both, and the same happened at home.
What I understand, is that religion wishes people to conform "religiously" (there is a clue in that word which keeps cropping up) without trying to question or rock the boat. In their most extreme form, religions are utterly barbaric and kill people in horrific ways to send a message to people who would stand up to them.
 
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Mr Bump said:
@andy700 I find your post and the thoughts behind it very sad indeed,
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Well it is a pretty sad situation which we are discussing, and there are reasons why it has happened. Sometimes we need to understand the causes in order to improve things.
 
simon ess said:
Religion was a central tenet of Persian, Greek and Roman society with very sophisticated religious structures.

Religion doesn't do what you suggest, people use religion for that purpose.
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I said - "Various great empires in the past managed to keep order without the bible", meaning that I was drawing attention to the fact that there was civilisation before Christian times, whether it be the monoatheist Persians or the Romans and Greeks who believed in multiple deities.
It was the Aarabs who forced Islam on the Persians. It was the Christians who organised crusades to Jerusalem. It was Christians who wiped out the so called "savages" in North America, Belgian Congo (8 million slaughtered).
Religion has been responsible for many millions of deaths since time began.
 
Come on guys, let's try to keep vaguely on topic.

Whether religion is the best/worst thing ever to happen in the world is (a) irrelevant to this discussion and (b) extremely tedious.
 
andy700 said:
I was forced to follow the teachings from the age of five to the age of sixteen, at which stage I decided to abandon the whole "religious gig" because it really did not make me very happy. Any time I challenged the teachings at school, I was humiliated or punished - or both, and the same happened at home.
What I understand, is that religion wishes people to conform "religiously" (there is a clue in that word which keeps cropping up) without trying to question or rock the boat. In their most extreme form, religions are utterly barbaric and kill people in horrific ways to send a message to people who would stand up to them.
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I was forced to attend religious educational facilities from and to the same ages, but even the frankly evil priests, nor their "brothers and sisters could force me to follow or believe the teachings.

The bible is indeed a "good book", but so are many other works of fiction. I didn't feel the need to live my life according to any of them.
 
andy700 said:
I was forced to follow the teachings from the age of five to the age of sixteen, at which stage I decided to abandon the whole "religious gig" because it really did not make me very happy. Any time I challenged the teachings at school, I was humiliated or punished - or both, and the same happened at home.
What I understand, is that religion wishes people to conform "religiously" (there is a clue in that word which keeps cropping up) without trying to question or rock the boat. In their most extreme form, religions are utterly barbaric and kill people in horrific ways to send a message to people who would stand up to them.
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So you had a personally bad experience, that doesn't make all religion bad, it may well indicate that those who represented Christianity (I assume) to you failed to grasp it's concepts, particularly that of the qualities of love and kindness ... or of course it could be that you failed to understand the concepts of respect and consideration for others.
 
simon ess said:
Crikey! I'm an atheist and largely anti religion, but I can't possibly agree.

There are many aspects of religious texts with which I strongly disagree, and many aspects which are deeply unpleasant, but to say they teach nothing is, IMO, too strong.
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you don't need the bible, the way the church has changed in the last 1000 years has been nothing to do with the moral aspects of the bible. we pick and choose which verses of the bible we like and reject those that we don't is not based on biblical or religious views. The bible and other religious texts are not required to give society its moral compass.
 
Mr Bump said:
yes because google is the absolute truth and all is good .
i feel so much sadness for you.
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well yes it does. Google and other search engines allow you to find information. I can't off the top of my head quote scripture so by using google I can find the information I require and copy and paste.

10 commandments, thy shall not kill

exodus 31:14 sabboth violators should be stoned to death

lots of other killing too, great place to take your moral compass from. don't kill unless it's my name (God)

Why you feel sadness for me because I can use a search engine to source information is beyond me.
 
gramps said:
Do we? Who are you speaking for?
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society over the years. we don't go about killing non-believers any more do we

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


this change had nothing to do with the bible or religious reasons but society's own morality.
 
POAH said:
society over the years. we don't go about killing non-believers any more do we

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


this change had nothing to do with the bible or religious reasons but society's own morality.
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Actually 2nd Chronicles doesn't speak of 'non-believers' it speaks of the Israelites who were in a covenant with God under the Mosaic Law and it wasn't changed as a result of society's morality it was changed by God in bringing the Mosaic Law to an end and introducing the Christian church under Jesus Christ and the Law of Love.
Just as there is much misinformation concerning the bible, so there is much misinformation concerning the Muslim faith and sadly that misinformation seems to have led three more girls to be deceived into doing something that can only bring them into harm's way.
 
10 commandments?
Try 67.
Or the 600-odd in the torah.
 
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