The wonders of technology..

lawrenceots

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Seems incredible to me, back when I was 14, I bought after much saving up, a Panasonic fz50 with 12x loon and aa. Recently bought the Leica equivalent for nostalgia. Now today... They reach 2000mm with the Nikon p900.. How far have we come? It's literally incredible when you think if the zoom ranges on the current crop of models. I think it's interesting how, despite all this advancement.. There must still be something wrong in that true DSLRS still have a massive place in the market with their "puny" 70-300mm kens!

Anyone care to discuss?
 
Well firstly the image quality is going to be serverly lacking compared to a DSLR with big prime lens. Secondly that camera doesn't shoot raw.

There are probably many other reasons but you're right it's a great feat of technology. Just not good enough to replace long DSLR lenses by a long stretch.
 
Aye I agree. It's just interesting how despite all this advancements with kens power and reach, the quality of one of these new ones, say pick the canon sx60 HS as it does raw.. Still probably won't beat a 10 year old canon 350D with a reasonably basic 70-300 lens. Some things have advanced massively.. But to a real world effect or is it just a numbers and "my kens is bigger than yours" kind of situation now..
 
Certainly for non pro use some of these superzooms kick DSLRs right where the sun doesn't shine, a friend of mine has a Fuji something or other and during the eclipse last year she got some great pics with it, comparable to my severe crops from my XT1 and 55-200mm lens with filters (she had no filters), and she was shooting handheld. That's actually pretty impressive really if you compare £200 camera vs £1500 worth of camera + added kit to do the same job.

Obviously the best images came from people who had 500, 600 and bigger still lenses costing several ££££ but still, the progress of miniaturization seems relentless.
 
My current kit includes a 700D and Canon 70-300 IS and old canon 200mm 2.8. The clarity from these is immense.. Just never going to happen with a. Hybrid bridge camera I suppose. Got to be a trade off someplace!
 
Not sure what you mean by something wrong? Large zoom bridge and compact cameras owe their 'incredible' zooms to the tiny sensors which effectively crop the image to give the 'zoom', so it's not a true focal length. It's actual focal length in 357mm. Also, handholding a camera with the equivalent 2000mm focal length is not an easy task to say the least. So whilst it's cool to get a close up of the moon etc, for day to day use 2000mm isn't that practical.

Also you can get lenses longer than 300mm for DSLR, such as 600mm, which when used on crop bodies give you 900mm effective focal length (on Nikon), and I would imagine that if you cropped the final image to match the P900 focal length the images from the DSLR would look far better. You can also get 1200mm+ lenses for DSLRs if you have a money tree in your garden ;) The other issue is size, on a teeny tiny sensor like in the P900 the lens doesn't have to be very big to cover it, but the bigger the sensor the bigger then lens which is why realistically anything over a 600mm lens becomes impractical. But I'd choose 600mm on a modern DSLR over 1200mm on a bridge camera all day long. And that's just based on IQ without then getting into autofocus systems, metering etc etc.
 
@lawrenceots I think your autocorrect is stuck unless you're typing "Kens" on purpose every time you mean "lens" ;)
 
I mean when I say "wrong" how crazy it ultimately is that you can have these cameras today, take the canon sx60, that has this phenomenal zoom lens but still generate images that are sub par to DSLRS... Exactly the same as it was 10 years ago! And yes I think my iPhone keyboard proficiency is gradually reducing @htid
 
Horses for courses. Most people are entirely happy with what they get from a superzoom. Even a 6MP like the old Nikon S10 can produce pleasing pictures at small sizes...

14051476047_1190956f5b_b.jpg
 
I mean when I say "wrong" how crazy it ultimately is that you can have these cameras today, take the canon sx60, that has this phenomenal zoom lens but still generate images that are sub par to DSLRS... Exactly the same as it was 10 years ago! And yes I think my iPhone keyboard proficiency is gradually reducing @htid
Well you can't beat sensor size, and as these are using the same sized sensors as they always have then there will be limitations. That being said, technology has moved on and in perfect lighting conditions they can produce image quality that is almost on par with DSLRs which is pretty impressive imo.
 
you pays your money you takes your choice.
much as dslr lenses and sensors have advanced quite a bit the area of most advancement has been the smaller sensors and I think that's where the comaprisoms are becoming very close.

however if you want to pixel peep a garden budgie at 40metres................

I gave up my big DSLR not because I got bored it was just stupid and heavy and you look a plonker walking about with it :)

Personnally I think Micro 4/3rds is where the future is.
 
however if you want to pixel peep a garden budgie at 40metres................

Funny you should mention that. I have a pixel peep of a robin taken with a Panny TZ40 from something like thirty feet and while it won't win any awards it shows the little beggar quite clearly...

12344853705_896aa3e82f_b.jpg
 
Funny you should mention that. I have a pixel peep of a robin taken with a Panny TZ40 from something like thirty feet and while it won't win any awards it shows the little beggar quite clearly...

12344853705_896aa3e82f_b.jpg

Yep but try putting that up in the birds section here and let the sniggering begin :-)
 
Seems incredible to me, back when I was 14, I bought after much saving up, a Panasonic fz50 with 12x loon and aa. Recently bought the Leica equivalent for nostalgia. Now today... They reach 2000mm with the Nikon p900.. How far have we come? It's literally incredible when you think if the zoom ranges on the current crop of models. I think it's interesting how, despite all this advancement.. There must still be something wrong in that true DSLRS still have a massive place in the market with their "puny" 70-300mm kens!

Anyone care to discuss?
I'd much rather shoot with a dslr and a 300mm lens than a p900 anyday! And you know a p900 doesn't have a 2000mm lens don't you? It's only the **equivalent** of that because of its tiny sensor and crop factor. The camera produces pretty poor images.

It's not even comparable to a dslr in quality. I take it sensor quality, AF speed, high ISO etc isn't important to you in terms of technological advancement?
 
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you pays your money you takes your choice.
much as dslr lenses and sensors have advanced quite a bit the area of most advancement has been the smaller sensors and I think that's where the comaprisoms are becoming very close.

however if you want to pixel peep a garden budgie at 40metres................

I gave up my big DSLR not because I got bored it was just stupid and heavy and you look a plonker walking about with it :)

Personnally I think Micro 4/3rds is where the future is.
Why did you look like a plonker holding it? Were you wearing a thong??
 
I'd much rather shoot with a dslr and a 300mm lens than a p900 anyday! And you know a p900 doesn't have a 2000mm lens don't you? It's only the **equivalent** of that because of its tiny sensor and crop factor. The camera produces pretty poor images.

It's not even comparable to a dslr in quality. I take it sensor quality, AF speed, high ISO etc isn't important to you in terms of technological advancement?


Do you have a P900? Have you used one? Have you seen any pictures from one? I'm guessing I'm 3 for 3!

Compared to my X-T1 with its 100-400 and 1.4x converter, the images are a little lacking BUT the CSC combination "only" racks out to an EFL of 840mm. Beyond that, the P900 is ahead of the game. It won't replace the Fuji kit or the FF Nikon kit I have but it certainly has a place in my collection of kit.
 
Do you have a P900? Have you used one? Have you seen any pictures from one? I'm guessing I'm 3 for 3!

Compared to my X-T1 with its 100-400 and 1.4x converter, the images are a little lacking BUT the CSC combination "only" racks out to an EFL of 840mm. Beyond that, the P900 is ahead of the game. It won't replace the Fuji kit or the FF Nikon kit I have but it certainly has a place in my collection of kit.
You have 1/3 there.

Don't get me wrong it has a place if you can't stump up for 600mm etc. It's just not the leap in technology the OP is creaming over simply because it has a decent zoom (but probably not as decent as he thinks it is).
 
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I gave up my big DSLR not because I got bored it was just stupid and heavy and you look a plonker walking about with it :)
Which very aptly describes how I'd feel trying to capture a robin at 30' with a P900
 
You have 1/3 there.

Don't get me wrong it has a place if you can't stump up for 600mm etc. It's just not the leap in technology the OP is creaming over simply because it has a decent zoom (but probably not as decent as he thinks it is).

If only there was a perfect camera! I bought the P900 as a holiday camera and it should cover that pretty well as a one camera, fixed lens solution, especially if carrying relatively big tubular and electronic stuff gets difficult as a result of the recent attacks in Belgium. There's a Buzzard's nest about 100 yards from our balcony and last year we were lucky enough to see the chick's first flight - the longer reach should get me better shots than a 200mm on a crop body got me. Not sure how well it'll cope with falcons in flight but that's not my forté either!

Which very aptly describes how I'd feel trying to capture a robin at 30' with a P900

It's fine for a head shot!
 
Horses for courses. Most people are entirely happy with what they get from a superzoom. Even a 6MP like the old Nikon S10 can produce pleasing pictures at small sizes...

14051476047_1190956f5b_b.jpg
I had a fixed lens Canon compact (no zoom) of 3MP that could produce top quality 5" x 7" prints, and very good A4 prints which only I could see on careful close scrutiny were a bit short of pixels. I'd probably still be carrying it around as a pocket camera if it hadn't needed so many batteries so often. Here's one.
486777392_96c5d8e4d2_o.jpg
 
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I gave up my big DSLR not because I got bored it was just stupid and heavy and you look a plonker walking about with it :)

You mean you looked like a plonker with yours? I look like a photographer with mine :-)
 
This was taken with SX60HS. Im happy with the result.
 

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Seems incredible to me, back when I was 14, I bought after much saving up, a Panasonic fz50 with 12x loon and aa. Recently bought the Leica equivalent for nostalgia. Now today... They reach 2000mm with the Nikon p900.. How far have we come? It's literally incredible when you think if the zoom ranges on the current crop of models. I think it's interesting how, despite all this advancement.. There must still be something wrong in that true DSLRS still have a massive place in the market with their "puny" 70-300mm kens!

Anyone care to discuss?

Ha ha...I "scoffed" at the Panny FZ50(back in the day) and opted for the Panny FZ28(because it had an 18x optical zoom) which to me, was way better than the "puny" 12x optical zoom of the FZ50!!...what an idiot i was back then!
Fast forward to last September 2015, and i finally got my hands on the legend that is the FZ50. This is after buying into the usual DX Nikon bodies, and now settling on a D700(which i like a lot). Ive also just recently got the Nikon V1/J1's to use with my Nikon 300mm f'/4D lens, to give the equiv. 810mm, with the V1's 2.7 crop factor...i call it the "poor mans super zoom", great for "birding"...better than my Panny FZ150 with nikon TC-E15ED teleconverter.

So back to the FZ50...why did i want one?...Well, i wanted to use the FZ50 for close up/macro work, like most Panny Bridge cameras, they are very good for this, especially when used with Raynox/close up filters. Ive used both DSLR's along side Bridge Cameras out in the field, and theres not really much difference in IQ. The Bridge Camera is much lighter in weight, its cost is a lot less too...I would say, take both camera systems out in the field, cover all bases.

A couple of reasons why i wanted the FZ50...It has a slightly larger sensor than most bridge cameras of today, it being 1/1.8".
It is capable of f/11, most modern bridge cameras max out at f/8. It has a fixed length lens(zooms internally, by hand) modern bridge camera lenses when zoomed, extend in length, which can be off putting to your subjects, when you are really close to them!
The only FZ50 downside, is the tiny 2" screen, thats a pain, and it is a bit slow to focus at times.

I saw my FZ50 advertised locally for just £20!!! what a bargain, one owner, hardly used, the guy even delivered it by hand to my front door!................Thats the best 20 quid ive ever spent.
Dont use the FZ50 for "Birding" is not really a super zoom, it will fail!...but it "shines" in other areas of photography. ;)

A couple of Images, cheers Paul.

Note - no "stacking" here(ive never stacked images)...all just the single shot, thanks to the FZ50's f/11 capability.

Leaf cutter Bee (uncropped). 12th-September-2015. by Testudo Man, on Flickr

Ivy Bee (Colletes hederae) garden photo (uncropped). 15th-September-2015. by Testudo Man, on Flickr

Migrant Hawker Dragonflies, in Cop. Macro/close up (uncropped). 4th-October-2015. by Testudo Man, on Flickr

Hornet feeding on Ivy. 13th-October-2015. by Testudo Man, on Flickr
 
Very nice image...perhaps a Heath Fritillary?

Thanks, but I'm afraid I don't know. I took it halfway up the Penken, above Mayrhofen in Austria. It had just settled on my wife's finger and seemed quite happy to pose in the sunlight.
 
Thanks, but I'm afraid I don't know. I took it halfway up the Penken, above Mayrhofen in Austria. It had just settled on my wife's finger and seemed quite happy to pose in the sunlight.

Im not familiar with Butterflies outside of the UK, but going by your image, i would say that it could be either a False Heath Fritillary? or a Heath Fritillary? Im not sure on the exact species?
We are lucky here in Kent/South East, we do have a couple of locations/areas for the Heath Fritillary ;)...here is one of my images i took last year, for a comparison against yours.

Panasonic FZ150 (Bridge Camera!) used, plus the Raynox 150 macro lens. Cheers Paul.

Heath Fritillary Butterfly. 7th-June-2015. by Testudo Man, on Flickr
 
Aye I agree. It's just interesting how despite all this advancements with kens power and reach, the quality of one of these new ones, say pick the canon sx60 HS as it does raw.. Still probably won't beat a 10 year old canon 350D with a reasonably basic 70-300 lens. Some things have advanced massively.. But to a real world effect or is it just a numbers and "my kens is bigger than yours" kind of situation now..
Its all a question of 'perspectve'; most of the 'advances' in camera technology in the last century, have done little to expand the envelope of possibility or lift the level of achieveable 'quality'...
The pioneers were taking full-frame photo's of the moon over 150 years ago; full-colour photographs were being shot at almost the same time. High resolution images, were being captured on 10x8 inch 'plate' cameras, and continued to deliver resolutions far beyond that acheveable by 'ameteurs' with smaller format cameras, right up until the modern era.
The greatest 'advances' in camera technology in the last hundred years has NOT beein in making better photographs, but in putting the equipment to make 'acceptable' quality images into the hands and pockets of joe-public in the street ameurs.
And the most significant way that this has been achieved, has simply by making cameras smaller.
The standards we stll work to were significantly established with the boom in 35mm film photography from the 1960's on, when the smaller film size allowed camera's to be made almost half the size, and need 1/4 the expensive chemicals and materials to make and make photo's; hence 'cheaper' and more compact, easier to carry and use.
It has only been in the last decade that digital cameras have started to regularly offer the same 'acceptable quality level' of 35mm film, and even high end digital start to challenge the ultimate quality that migh be achieved with medium or large format film.
As to the question of 'zoom' as a measure of technological advancement? Very mute debate really, and rather like miga-pixel counting, of little real relevence to taking 'better' photo's.
Idea that a bridge camera with 20 or even 50x 'zoom' is some-how 'better' or more 'advanced', than the 3x'zoom' offered by an early 70-210mm 'long' zoom for a 35mm film camera, is rather querilouse.
Frame size for 35mm film is 24x36mm; 'half-frame' or APS-Crop film/digital sensor sze is 16x24mm, giving a 1.5x crop-factor increase in effectve 'reach' for any lens. Shrink the frame/sensor size down further, and even a 'big' sensor in a bridge camera is likely no more than '1/4 frame, 8x12mm, giving at least a 2x 'zoom-magnifying' crop factor; Sensors used in lower end bridge or compacts, action-cams & smart-phones tend to be even smaller, and have a crop factor as much as maybe 8 or 10x.
This pulls the 'normal' angle of view down to rediculousely short focal lengths; maybe as little as 5mm instead of 50mm! So if you can reletively easily make a lens with perhaps 40mm, on a 'full-frame' 35mm camera, that would only just about offer you very cncervative by modern dtandards, 3x zoom from maybe 30-70mm, around the 'normal' angle of view. But put that infront of a micro-sensor for a consumer-compact, where the 'normal angle' is provided by a 5mm focal length, that same, 40mm of 'travel' can take you from perhaps 4mm to 44mm, a much more 'impressive' 11x zoom.
And it's a double, if not tripple, whammy; if you fit a lens 'optimised' for a 35mm film camera on a crop-sensor DSLR, the sensor only captures the image from the centre of the image circle; it 'crops' off the corners and edges, and hence 'looses' a lot of the edge aboratons and distortions that effect image quality. This is one of the reasons, that lenses for crop-sensor DSLR's tend to be that much cheaper tha for full-frame DSLR's, and same 'ecconomics' apply when going even smaller for smaller sensor bridge or compacts
Other 'whammy', is to do with Depth-of-Field; as focal length degreases, (for given camera to subject focal dstance) so the Depth of Field, around the subject 'increases'. This reduces focus criticality, meaning that auto-focus mechanism's dont have to be as precice, and tends to increase percieved 'sharpness', giving a illusion of better mage resolution.
Or in short; making sensors smaller, makes making cameras 'easier' and 'cheaper' for any given level of percieved 'aceptable image quality'... doesn't neceserily make them a 'better-camera', let alone support the mis-conception that better cameras take better photo's!
The big zoom factors, and big pixel counts basted by so many contemprary 'consumer' compact & bridge camera's, are to my mnd little more than sales gimmicks.
For almost all practical purposes, ever since my very first 1.3Mpixel compact camera, 13 years ago, I have had to shrink the pixel-size from what the camera can deliver, to print or display! The 24Mpix offered by my DSLR now, then doesn't really do much to help me make 'better' pctures! Especially if I dont have anything interesting to point it at!
While BIG zoom? Well... Many moons ago (pun!) I bought a 3x tele-converter for something daft like 50p from the bargain bin in the camera shop to fit my M42 screw fit 35mm film cameras. That baged my 300mm prime tele-photo out to a wopping 900mm to get almost frame filling moon-shots! But even with the stablity provided by shear mass of an old lead-loaded Zenith, it was NOT a set-up you were going to get sharp shots 'hand-holding'!!
Few years back, the O/H bought a 21x zoom 'Bridge' as a carry-about; actual lens spec is 4.5mm-94mm, 25-425mm '35mm equivilent', which is pretty impressive, and more than covers the 28-300mm range I had for my flm cameras with two or three seperate lenses; and close enough to the 27-450mm 'equivilent' range I have on DSLR from 'kit' 18-55 & 55-300's... but even there, I rarely use more than about 200 on the big-zoom, and again, hand-holding, even with a larger, heavier more stable camera, and a practiced steady-hand; it's not condusive to blurr-free images, hand-holding. The smaller lighter, less stable 'bridge' at that sort of 'reach' is almost mpossible to hand-hold and get un-fuzzy photo's in all but the 'best' light, and even then, still a bt ht and miss; and ulike the DSLR you can use on a tripod with remote release; Bridge only has a self timer to put to the task.
Like the pixel-count, its largely a 'redundant-feature' to all practical purposes, more use to sales-man flogging cameras on the numbers rather than any-one wanting to take better photo's.
And in THAT, there is an irony to ALL these suggested 'advances'..... go back quarter of a century, and a half decent 35mm 'consumer compact', with a fixed, usually 35mm lens, but a 'full-frame' sensor, replenished every photo, could often deliver pictures as good or better in terms of image quality as a 35mm SLR... and you could slip it in your pocket!
I have a much vanted Olympus 35mm XA2 'clam-shell-compact' for over 30 years; it still fts in my pocket; it still delivers 'full-frame' quality photo's, that even scanned on an almost 20-year old film-scanner, have almost 10Mpix resolution I still have to shrink to display! Which as a 'pocketeable' carry-around,gets far more 'outings' than the 'bridge', for all that's suggested 'technical advancement' and consumer-usefulness.. because despite what the specs suggest on the box.. practically it just ENT 'more useful'..
Like I said, the very idea of "Advances" are pretty subjective.
 
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