The 'Woman' point of view

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My apologies for being at the start of my education rather than at the end of it.

I trust you will also be telling all those photographers on these forums who are posting pictures that 'retread' what others have done before not to bother.

No and I am not having a go. I am simply stating my viewpoint that, in the same way as when you take that first photo you are proud of but many have seen before, whilst great from a personal point of view, there is no real artistic merit to it, do not expect everyone to agree with you and also do not expect that it is something that many have not seen or heard before.
 
No and I am not having a go. I am simply stating my viewpoint that, in the same way as when you take that first photo you are proud of but many have seen before, whilst great from a personal point of view, there is no real artistic merit to it, do not expect everyone to agree with you and also do not expect that it is something that many have not seen or heard before.

Well, hopefully I will find all these people who have written about photography's social history before me before I start my dissertation... otherwise I will just be rehashing stuff that people have written before. But to be honest, I'm struggling.
 
Sorry to break a bubble here but men and women think differently. I wrote my thesis on pornography for women and there was a study done that looked at functional MRI scans of men and women looking at various videos, including pornographic ones. Different areas of the brain reacted in men and women looking at the same clips.

So there is a point of view that is gender based.
 
Sorry to break a bubble here but men and women think differently. I wrote my thesis on pornography for women and there was a study done that looked at functional MRI scans of men and women looking at various videos, including pornographic ones. Different areas of the brain reacted in men and women looking at the same clips.

So there is a point of view that is gender based.

Do they think differently from birth or did their brains develop differently because of the environment to which they were exposed?
 
Sorry to break a bubble here but men and women think differently. I wrote my thesis on pornography for women and there was a study done that looked at functional MRI scans of men and women looking at various videos, including pornographic ones. Different areas of the brain reacted in men and women looking at the same clips.

So there is a point of view that is gender based.

So there are four things I'd be interested to know from studies like that.

1. If all those who were identified as biologically male at birth reacted the same way.

2. If all those who were identified as biologically female at birth reacted the same way.

3. The anomalies experienced (or lack of) when the results are compared to self-identified gender.

4. To what extend cultural conditioning and environmental factors can affect apparent biological reaction. For instance with a control study from somewhere like India where imagery does *not* have a dominant male gaze ingrained in it and images of sex are considered to not debase one gender or the other.
 
Feel free to read the studies yourself. The first show that under stress, men and women react differently (ie different areas of the brain and different physiological reations)

http://www.pnas.org/content/102/49/17804.full.pdf html

And the second is with regard to pornographic specifically:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11870922

There is also an article by Russell called "Sex is on the brain" from Trends in Cognitive Science. To quote from there, and from my own thesis:

"The differences were recorded and for both sexes, significant bilateral foci of activation were noted in both male and female subjects in the medial prefrontal cortex (expression and moderating social behavior), orbitofrontal cortex (decision making), anterior cingulate cortex (control of autonomic functions), insula (perception, motor control, self-awareness, cognitive functioning), occipitotemporal cortex (vision), amygdala (memory and emotional reaction) and ventral striatum (controlling behaviour in social interactions).

However, where men reacted differently was in the hypothalamus, which, in large, controls body temperature, hunger, and thirst (National Cancer Institute, 2013). There was a positive correlation between male subjects’ reports of arousal and magnitude of hypothalamic activation but, the crucial finding for sexual dimorphism, no such correlation was detected in the female subjects (Russell, 2002). With different neurological responses to stimuli, it is appropriate to consider that subject matter should be targeted to the gender of the audience."

There are whole rafts of data and studies that show men and women think and react differently and it not being about the environment. There are of course environmental factors in many cases too but very few can cause deep physiological changes.
 
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I find this all very strange.
At college in the 50's there were similar numbers of young women and young men. After army service and coming up 22 I was one of the older starters.
There was little to chose between the general standard of work or indeed aptitudes. There was no distinction at all given in our weekly criticism period.

I have never thought at all about the sex of of the originator of a photograph. I am certain that I could not ascertain it anyway.
It is True I have met more male working Photographers in my career, but it has never occurred to me that they might be better.

Today Photographers on the touch line, or at events and in social and wedding photography seem to be balanced fairly equally between the sexes.

I am not sure that the Psychology of what is going on, is all that important. It is just social change.

( The need for spacial awareness is perhaps at its greatest in fast Jet, airline and space pilots. An area increasingly employing females at the top level.)
 
you dont need studies to know that men and women think differently. You just need to get older, have some real life experience of the opposite sex and realise we think differently and there is nothing wrong with that at all. Thank god we do think differently. It would be an awful place if we didnt.

Asking for a womans point of view on something isnt demeaning, insulting, condescending or any other derogatory xxxx'ing you might want to think of.
 
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Asking for a womans point of view on something isnt demeaning, insulting, condescending or any other derogatory xxxx'ing you might want to think of.

I think the cartoon linked in post 2 sums it up well enough. There's a difference between "asking a woman for her point of view" and "asking for a woman's point of view"; the former being focussed on the individual and valid the latter being a generalisation and probably inaccurate.

I have no doubt that males and females have different perspectives on life, as do rich and poor, straight or gay, fat or thin, tall or short etc; neither do I think that all tall, fat, poor men think alike. Gender, or rather the chemical soup that comes with a particular set of organs, probably does affect how brains develop and function - but is it signifiant enough to lump 50% of the population into one mind set?

Let's play on stereotypes for a moment - let's assume that aggression is a male trait; compassion is a female one; a brief google will throw up many scholarly articles to support these hypothesis. Does that mean that all men are aggressive or all women are compassionate? Or that compassion is an exclusively female trait? No. it's a generalisation. When you're looking for a "Woman's view" on something, what are you looking for? What's the context? Is the quality you are seeking present in all women? Exclusively in women?

I'm not saying it's never valid - find a trait that applies to all women, and it's perfectly valid. Same with any other generalist grouping, but as a phrase, it is rather overused.
 
I think the cartoon linked in post 2 sums it up well enough. There's a difference between "asking a woman for her point of view" and "asking for a woman's point of view"; the former being focussed on the individual and valid the latter being a generalisation and probably inaccurate.

I have no doubt that males and females have different perspectives on life, as do rich and poor, straight or gay, fat or thin, tall or short etc; neither do I think that all tall, fat, poor men think alike. Gender, or rather the chemical soup that comes with a particular set of organs, probably does affect how brains develop and function - but is it signifiant enough to lump 50% of the population into one mind set?

Let's play on stereotypes for a moment - let's assume that aggression is a male trait; compassion is a female one; a brief google will throw up many scholarly articles to support these hypothesis. Does that mean that all men are aggressive or all women are compassionate? Or that compassion is an exclusively female trait? No. it's a generalisation. When you're looking for a "Woman's view" on something, what are you looking for? What's the context? Is the quality you are seeking present in all women? Exclusively in women?

I'm not saying it's never valid - find a trait that applies to all women, and it's perfectly valid. Same with any other generalist grouping, but as a phrase, it is rather overused.

But we all stereotype constantly, as the OP did in her post about model photographers. Replace woman's with any grouping or genre and we all become guilty. It is part of human nature to do this and in many facets of life we are encouraged to do so.
 
I haven't had a chance yet to read Charlotte's article so my responses here are very generalised. I firmly believe that most of the differences between the genders (or "gender traits") are due to 2 things - conditioning and hormonal responses. To an extent we are at the mercy of the latter but there is no doubt in my mind that much of what we regard as typical female behaviour is a result of upbringing and training. Girls are given dolls to play with and dressed in pink dresses (heaven help them). Little boys are often given action man and toy guns and are often encouraged to display masculine traits in certain situations, be it the rugby field, at the pub, or when interacting with females. Girls are conditioned to believe that they should be in charge of domestic duties such as housekeeping and cooking, and childcare. Men supposedly go out to work, cut the lawn, and do barbecues. However if we look back in history at certain civilisations was was not uncommon for certain social groups to raise both male and female children in the same way - to be warriors or leaders, and it appears that they excelled fairly equally (notwithstanding physical strength differences).

Whilst testosterone is known to play a role in aggression and sexual response, which may have provoked the changes reported by Gerard above, I think it is also true to say that females are raised to repress their own sexuality - after all, we know that a girl who has slept with several men would be labelled a slut, and we don't want that. A man on the other hand might be much I admired for the same kind of behaviour. Therefore the judgement which is placed upon both genders is quite different and has a huge influence on the behaviour of both. We also know that as career barriers have been lifted there are more and more females permeating what were previously known as male professions - often very technical professions.

I had a female acquaintance awhile back who was seriously into rally driving, and she was very good. But she was criticised hugely and labelled as selfish and irresponsible. This is because she had a family, and in order to do her rally driving she would go away for the odd few days. Then there were the ominous accusations of leaving her family to fend for themselves if anything happened to her. Interesting, I don't hear the same complaints levied at most men - funny, that. It's as if men aren't considered capable of taking care of themselves, or their children. I would argue that they are - and it is an insult to assume otherwise.

I feel that technical forums are mostly populated by men because their female partners are more likely to bear the burden of domestic duties and probably don't have time to put their feet up in front of a computer!

I have been on the planet long enough to have witnessed and to have been subjected to the kind of sexism which was part of the workplace up until a couple of decades ago. I am relieved to say that the world we live in now is notably different, or rather our particular society. I don't see much sexism nowadays or judgement based on my gender. But I will say this - when presumptions are made about my achievements, lifestyle, or abilities it is very often a woman who is making those assumptions. Pretty much every woman I meet will assume that the cars I drive have been bought for me by a man, and that my business was probably provided to me by a husband, and in short that a man will be paying for the things I have. Why is this? Quite simply because they have been conditioned to adopt a stereotypical way of thinking, rather than consider alternative possibilities.

It works both ways of course, I'm not for a moment saying that it's all a bed of roses for men - men are subject to enough stereotypes of their own.
 
Interesting article Charlotte.

As a straight, white middle aged man I was never in a minority or disadvantaged group until I became disabled a few years ago and then the discrimination from able bodied people (all races, ages and gender) hit me like a brick, so I would feel the same if I was asked for my view as a disabled person. It would be equally pointless.

However, I don't understand why (if we accept that such an approach is unacceptable), it is then acceptable to generalise that an entire gender has a certain 'gaze' If we can defend the view that all men and women gaze differently, then would it be acceptable if the original question/statement was re-worded as:

its nice to have a woman's gaze on one of my pictures.

or how about

its nice to have a different culturally conditioned view of one of my pictures
 
Well, hopefully I will find all these people who have written about photography's social history before me before I start my dissertation... otherwise I will just be rehashing stuff that people have written before. But to be honest, I'm struggling.

Charlotte. At undergraduate level, your tutors will not necessarily be looking for originality in your dissertation (although after reading about 10 others on this subject they may be relieved). They'll be primarily looking for you to demonstrate sound academic writing and research skills. Forging a path of original, and therefore primary research is just making a rod for your own back at level 6. Save that for post-grad. I read the same dissertations every year, and one subject dominates the mix every year, and it's what you're writing about right now. At undergraduate level, the primary concern is not what you write necessarily, but how you write it, and more important still, how you research it and reference it. It's nice to see original stuff, but it just has to be relevant to your studies and well written and researched. You're not after publishing your undergraduate dissertation, it's a test... nothing more.
 
Interesting article Charlotte.

As a straight, white middle aged man I was never in a minority or disadvantaged group until I became disabled a few years ago and then the discrimination from able bodied people (all races, ages and gender) hit me like a brick, so I would feel the same if I was asked for my view as a disabled person. It would be equally pointless.

However, I don't understand why (if we accept that such an approach is unacceptable), it is then acceptable to generalise that an entire gender has a certain 'gaze' If we can defend the view that all men and women gaze differently, then would it be acceptable if the original question/statement was re-worded as:

its nice to have a woman's gaze on one of my pictures.

or how about

its nice to have a different culturally conditioned view of one of my pictures

It would be lovely to have 'a woman's gaze' on an image. 100%. I'd really be intrigued to find someone who is capable of gazing in that way.

However 'the male gaze' describes a culturally conditioned way of thinking that almost all western men and women have - the gaze of a while male. It is not 'male' as in 'born with a penis' but rather gendered viewing.

We are not generalising that biologically men have 'the male gaze' and that women have a female gaze, but rather that we have been conditioned into viewing imagery over the last few centuries from the viewpoint of the classically dominant (white, educated, western) male.
 
Quite simply because they have been conditioned to adopt a stereotypical way of thinking, rather than consider alternative possibilities.

That is partially what my blog was about - you got it without reading it so you've saved yourself some time. ;-)

It was a bit deeper than that and covered slightly different issues, but that's one of the constructs of one of the arguments. That 'men' do not want to give up their privileged position as image makers, where they force everyone to see the world through their eyes.
 
you dont need studies to know that men and women think differently. You just need to get older, have some real life experience of the opposite sex and realise we think differently and there is nothing wrong with that at all. Thank god we do think differently. It would be an awful place if we didnt.

Asking for a womans point of view on something isnt demeaning, insulting, condescending or any other derogatory xxxx'ing you might want to think of.

Thank you for mansplaining to me how I, as a woman, feel about having the validity of my opinion lumped in with everyone I share biological function with.

Also I think at 30, I've experienced quite a bit of both 'real life' and the opposite sex. Thanks. Not that I think there is such thing as 'the opposite sex', but there you go.
 
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oh dear. You do seem to be the oddest poster on this forum.

I do think this is a clear case of academia completely forgetting what real life is like in the rush to get a paper out the door with something someone else hasnt said before. Good luck with the studies though.
 
I think the cartoon linked in post 2 sums it up well enough. There's a difference between "asking a woman for her point of view" and "asking for a woman's point of view"; the former being focussed on the individual and valid the latter being a generalisation and probably inaccurate.

I have no doubt that males and females have different perspectives on life, as do rich and poor, straight or gay, fat or thin, tall or short etc; neither do I think that all tall, fat, poor men think alike. Gender, or rather the chemical soup that comes with a particular set of organs, probably does affect how brains develop and function - but is it signifiant enough to lump 50% of the population into one mind set?

Let's play on stereotypes for a moment - let's assume that aggression is a male trait; compassion is a female one; a brief google will throw up many scholarly articles to support these hypothesis. Does that mean that all men are aggressive or all women are compassionate? Or that compassion is an exclusively female trait? No. it's a generalisation. When you're looking for a "Woman's view" on something, what are you looking for? What's the context? Is the quality you are seeking present in all women? Exclusively in women?

I'm not saying it's never valid - find a trait that applies to all women, and it's perfectly valid. Same with any other generalist grouping, but as a phrase, it is rather overused.

Yes exactly. And Nochlin actually makes this point rather well in her essay. About artists, but it's relevant.

Another attempt to answer the question involves shifting the ground slightly and asserting, as some contemporary feminists do, that there is a different kind of "greatness" for women's art than for men's, thereby postulating the existence of a distinctive and recognizable fermnine style, different both in its formal and its expressive qualities and based on the special character of women's situation and experience.

This, on the surface of it, seems reasonable enough: in general, women's experience and situation in society, and hence as artists, is different from men's, and certainly the art produced by a group of consciously united and purposefully articulate women intent on bodying forth a group consciousness of feminine experience might indeed be stylistically identifiable as feminist, if not feminine, art. Unfortunately, though this remains within the realm of possibility it has so far not occurred. While the members of the Danube School, the followers of Caravaggio, the painters gathered around Gauguin at Pont-Aven, the Blue Rider, or the Cubists may be recognized by certain clearly defined stylistic or expressive qualities, no such common qualities of "femininity" would seem to link the styles of women artists generally, any more than such qualities can be said to link women writers, a case brilliantly argued, against the most devastating, and mutually contradictory, masculine critical clich6s, by Mary Ellmann in her Thinking AboutWomen. No subtle essence of femininity would seem to link the work of Artemisia Gentileschi, Mme. Vigee-Lebrun, Angelica Kauffmann, Rosa Bonheur, Berthe Morlsot, Suzanne Valadon, Kathe Kollwitz, Barbara Hepworth, Georgia O'Keeffe, Sophle Taeuber-Arp, Helen Frankenthaler, Bridget Riley, Lee Bontecou, or Loulse Nevelson. any more than that of Sappho, Marle de France, Jane Austen, Emily Bronte, George Sand, George Eliot, Virginia Woolf, Gertrude Stein, Anais Nin, Emily Dickinson, Sylvia Plath, and Susan Sontag. In every instance, women artists and writers would seem to be closer to other artists and writers of their own period and outlook than they are to each other.

Women artists are more inward-looking, more delicate and nuanced in their treatment of their medium, it may be asserted. But which of the women artists cited above is more inward-turning then Redon, more subtle and nuanced in the handling of pigment than Corot? Is Fragonard more or less feminine than Mme. Vigee-Lebrun? Or is it not more a question of the whole Rococo style of eighteenth-century France being "feminine," if judged in terms of a binary scale of "masculinity" versus "femininity"? Certainly, if daintiness, delicacy, and preciousness are to be counted as earmarks of a feminine style, there is nothing fragile about Rosa Bonheur's Horse Fair, nor dainty and introverted about Helen Frankenthaler's giant canvases. If women have turned to scenes of domestic life, or of children. so did Jan Steen, Chardin, and the Impressionists--Renoir and Monet as well as Morisot and Cassatt. In any case, the mere choice of a certain realm of subject matter, or the restriction to certain subjects, is not to be equated with a style, much less with some sort of quintessentially feminine style.

So that's quite long. But make the point that you can always find a man who is more of a trait than 'women' in general.
 
oh dear. You do seem to be the oddest poster on this forum.

I do think this is a clear case of academia completely forgetting what real life is like in the rush to get a paper out the door with something someone else hasnt said before. Good luck with the studies though.

No, this was just a blog post. It was not a paper or a formally set essay. It was just something I wanted to write that was spurred on by a friends experiences.
 
We are not generalising that biologically men have 'the male gaze' and that women have a female gaze, but rather that we have been conditioned into viewing imagery over the last few centuries from the viewpoint of the classically dominant (white, educated, western) male.

If that is the case, why don't women like the same pornography as men? After all, you are suggesting that women have been "conditioned into viewing imagery over the last few centuries from the viewpoint of the classically dominant male" which would mean they would be loving the pornography that exists. Except they don't and I don't believe they do for other images too.

You are looking for something that isn't there and, as always on this forum, lacing all your posts with an implied or direct reference to misogyny. You also seem to object to being grouped in with other women when it comes to a viewpoint when it's been shown in study after study that, for certain reactions, there is a split that can clearly been drawn along the lines of gender.

You strike me as someone who in the search for equality between men and women, which doesn't exist in many, many areas, is trying to suggest there are no differences between a man and a woman. That is wholly wrong and quite dangerous; there are differences and those differences should be recognised and utilised rather than trying to argue that equality means being the same.
 
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An interesting view would be to post on female heavy forums as a male. The reaction no doubt would be very similar.

I meant to reply specifically to this point yesterday, but I was thinking of my reply while I was walking somewhere and then completely forgot to write it down.

I think that would be an interesting control and something worth collecting data from, however I also think it would be virtually impossible to do. Hear me out. You see there are very few areas of life or hobbies that are 'closed off' to men in the same way that they are to women. I don't mean 'closed off' as in not penetrable at all, but rather where someone is not only a minority but also excluded due to attitudes towards that sex.

So initially I thought that baking/cookery might be one area where men could try posting on forums because that is predominantly female dominated on the internet, however the extensive amount of male chef's, TV presenters etc and the fact that men tend to be the professionals in this area makes it a poor comparison to a photography community.

And then I thought of sewing, another traditional women's pasttime - if you clicked around my blog you'll realise I sew and make costume - but then thought about the sheer volume of male friends who do the same thing and also there's the fact that like chef's, top end garment makers, tailors and designers have generally been men too. However I have been using usenet/newsgroups since I was about 11 years old so I cast my mind back. In fact I talked to a friend who used to be on the alt.sewing and alt.rec.quilting newsgroups with me at the time and asked her if her husband ever used them and how he felt, he said he felt extremely welcomed and there was never any feeling of being unwelcome due to sex. Indeed I used to go by the name 'Charlie' on usenet and never felt unwelcome within those groups. An extremely small sample, but I can only pull from my own experience here.

I am going to specifically *exclude* forums like Mumsnet from this equation. Because they're nasty, vile places at the very best of times and don't even deserve being experimented on. Besides, they are specifically *aimed* at women, whereas photography review sites are not aimed at men so it's not an equal comparison.

I cannot think of a single hobby that is vastly female dominated but isn't *aimed* specifically at women and that *doesn't* have a leading body of male celebs and professionals.
 
If that is the case, why don't women like the same pornography as men? After all, you are suggesting that women have been "conditioned into viewing imagery over the last few centuries from the viewpoint of the classically dominant male" which would mean they would be loving the pornography that exists. Except they don't and I don't believe they do for other images too.


ETA: I've not answered your question.

More that I don't understand your question. Can you rephrase or do I need more coffee?

I've pretty much run out of internet for the day anyway so I'll have to get back to you tomorrow.
 
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That is partially what my blog was about - you got it without reading it so you've saved yourself some time. ;-)

It was a bit deeper than that and covered slightly different issues, but that's one of the constructs of one of the arguments. That 'men' do not want to give up their privileged position as image makers, where they force everyone to see the world through their eyes.

My emphasis, but even given the use of 'quotes', are you not displaying the self same behaviour there as you are despairing about in your original post?

'Men' don't have a collective intelligence where by we automatically synchronise our actions in a concerted effort to suppress female artists with every other man on the planet any more than 'Women' have a single point of view. Individuals in a position of privilege often work to maintain that position, sadly at the expense of others; those same individuals are getting older and will ultimately die and remove themselves from the mix; offering the opportunity to change - albeit it is usually incremental and slow.

Sadly it doesn't always go in the right direction - the current trend to offer enhance status and privilege to people based on their looks and how little clothes they wear is a huge step backwards.
 
My emphasis, but even given the use of 'quotes', are you not displaying the self same behaviour there as you are despairing about in your original post?

'Men' don't have a collective intelligence where by we automatically synchronise our actions in a concerted effort to suppress female artists with every other man on the planet any more than 'Women' have a single point of view. Individuals in a position of privilege often work to maintain that position, sadly at the expense of others; those same individuals are getting older and will ultimately die and remove themselves from the mix; offering the opportunity to change - albeit it is usually incremental and slow.

Sadly it doesn't always go in the right direction - the current trend to offer enhance status and privilege to people based on their looks and how little clothes they wear is a huge step backwards.

I think in my blog post I do suggest that I'm pointing to a smaller minority than 'all men'.
 
Also I think we are straying from the point a little.

My assertion was that 'women on photography review sites are often treated like they have a hive mind while men are considered to have individual opinions'.

Why don't we say to a man 'it's great to get a man's opinion' but we do say 'it's great to get a woman's opinion'. It's that being lumped in with the opinion of everyone else that shares biology is what I see with the problem, while men don't have to put up with that.
 
ETA: I've not answered your question.

More that I don't understand your question. Can you rephrase or do I need more coffee?

I've pretty much run out of internet for the day anyway so I'll have to get back to you tomorrow.

I think you need more perspective than coffee.

Your argument is:

"we have been conditioned into viewing imagery over the last few centuries from the viewpoint of the classically dominant (white, educated, western) male"

If that is true, why don't women on the whole like the pornographic material out there? There is an awful lot of pornography designed for white, educated, Western men and yet women don't like it. But according to your statement above, we've all been conditioned to view imagery from that perspective.

However, this is my last post on this topic or indeed anything else you write on this site because I am bored with a photography website being used as an outlet for your twisted views of men, society and politics.
 
I am sorry Charlotte but you do come across as anti male. just look at your last post it comes across (certainly to me) as anti male. Whilst excepting there are some males who do not "value women" a lot of your posts come across as "look how bad all men are"
 
heres my take we are in the 21st century we are all equal. to be honest i don't know who is male or female on any forum as we can all liar. to be honest i don't care i just try to get on and understand others point of view
 
Why don't we say to a man 'it's great to get a man's opinion' but we do say 'it's great to get a woman's opinion'. It's that being lumped in with the opinion of everyone else that shares biology is what I see with the problem, while men don't have to put up with that.

Men do experience this.

This moot seems to be stepping away from photography somewhat, so I'll take a moment to put forward my experience on the wider issue. The field my experiences are borne from are irrelevant, but I will state that it's not photography.

Firstly Charlotte, you're clearly very passionate about the subject and I always admire the fervour in which you fight your corner (even if I don't always agree with what you're saying).

In my current job I am the only male in the immediate vicinity; I am responsible for (in a professional context) roughly thirty women, and all of the managers above me are also female (right up to and including Directors).

Every day at least one female client or a member of staff will say to me:
  • It's nice to get a male opinion on this
or
  • I would rather speak to a female about XYZ
The subjects being discussed are neither delicate/embarrasing nor are they something I wouldn't have a clue about because I'm a 'bloke.' Most of the time I'll be the most qualified person around to talk on the matter (my managers are often not directly contactable), resulting in the female members of staff often merely regurgitating information to the client that I have given them, rather than me dealing with the client myself.

Most of the time it doesn't bother me providing the situation is approached and handled politely; if the client would rather interact with a female member of staff rather than myself then so be it, it's their choice.

While it doesn't cause me any great stress, it is still discrimination based on my gender. Presumptions and insinuations are made that I won't understand certain things because I'm male. At the end of the day, anyone with any intelligence recognisies my ability, and those that don't are basically stupid.

I think this translates across to the point you make regarding the photography side of things you refer to - any photographer that values a female opinion as lesser than that of a male is stupid, any reviewer that regards their post as more important than that of a male is stupid, regardless of photograph subject, photographer gender / orientation, or motive behind said photograph, period. Sometimes you have to let ignorant people remain ignorant; to educate them all will only hinder your own goals in life.

I agree with some of your arguments within this thread and just wanted to inject an opinion from someone who has first hand experience of when the shoe is on the other foot so to speak. It does seem very one sided though with no thought given to any counter-arguments.
 
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I meant to reply specifically to this point yesterday, but I was thinking of my reply while I was walking somewhere and then completely forgot to write it down.

I think that would be an interesting control and something worth collecting data from, however I also think it would be virtually impossible to do. Hear me out. You see there are very few areas of life or hobbies that are 'closed off' to men in the same way that they are to women. I don't mean 'closed off' as in not penetrable at all, but rather where someone is not only a minority but also excluded due to attitudes towards that sex.

So initially I thought that baking/cookery might be one area where men could try posting on forums because that is predominantly female dominated on the internet, however the extensive amount of male chef's, TV presenters etc and the fact that men tend to be the professionals in this area makes it a poor comparison to a photography community.

And then I thought of sewing, another traditional women's pasttime - if you clicked around my blog you'll realise I sew and make costume - but then thought about the sheer volume of male friends who do the same thing and also there's the fact that like chef's, top end garment makers, tailors and designers have generally been men too. However I have been using usenet/newsgroups since I was about 11 years old so I cast my mind back. In fact I talked to a friend who used to be on the alt.sewing and alt.rec.quilting newsgroups with me at the time and asked her if her husband ever used them and how he felt, he said he felt extremely welcomed and there was never any feeling of being unwelcome due to sex. Indeed I used to go by the name 'Charlie' on usenet and never felt unwelcome within those groups. An extremely small sample, but I can only pull from my own experience here.

I am going to specifically *exclude* forums like Mumsnet from this equation. Because they're nasty, vile places at the very best of times and don't even deserve being experimented on. Besides, they are specifically *aimed* at women, whereas photography review sites are not aimed at men so it's not an equal comparison.

I cannot think of a single hobby that is vastly female dominated but isn't *aimed* specifically at women and that *doesn't* have a leading body of male celebs and professionals.

You've found several examples of what is perceived as a 'female' domain, yet, without much fuss, the male of the species have participated, some of whom have succeeded (the 'professionals / celebs' you refer to), some of whom will be quietly 'getting on with it'. Don't fall into the trap on thinking only the 'celebrities' of the world matter.

The reason these work could be that predominately female forums are more welcoming and less judgemental than predominately male forums or that the males who enter into this predominately female environment don't carry a chip on their shoulder that builds on the divide rather than eroding it. Personally I'd tend towards favouring the latter explanation. Individuals make a difference in how they act.

Besides, you can't exclude forums like Mumsnet on the basis they're 'nasty'; they are the sum of their members actions. They're not particularly inviting though!
 
I believe there is such a thing as a female perspective. As has been mentioned above men and women think differently about things - different areas of the brain respond differently to the same stimulus. There is a clear social construct of 'men' and 'women' of course but the statement:

As far as I'm concerned, the only differences are from cultural conditioning and that's my point - we need to eradicate them because they're not 'good' differences, they're differences that generally say that women are inferior. Biology has nothing to do with mental capability.

Is misinformed and closed minded. You appear unwilling on uninterested in any kind of debate and discussion (as in many previous posts) and kind of makes everyone else's efforts to post and comment redundant.



I have actively conditioned myself to enjoy looking at sexy images of men and I can point back to a time when I thought it was both unacceptable AND unattractive. It has taken considerable amounts of work despite the fact that I am a young, straight woman educated in looking at imagery.

Could this be specific to your own social conditioning rather than a cross section of the population?
The multitudes of young women for the last 50(?) years have had no trouble with this before - I would imagine that the majority of teenage girls walls are adorned with posters of boy bands and pale moody pseudo-vampires. Are these not 'sexy' images of males? I'm sure they would have the vocabulary to describe them. (does it not count if its not art?)

In terms of photography in general, I have mentioned this in previous posts, at least 75% of the professional photographers local to me and therefore 'competition' are female. The online presence of newborn/toddler photographers is abundantly female - I can almost see the reply argument 'ah... a social conditioning of women to deal with children'. You seem to paint a picture of women being unable to think for themselves and belittling any decision made as a result of their conditioning. (that applies to your statements on the male gender too come to think of it). People come into my studio and look surprised to find that its going to be a male taking the pictures.

You are applying your online experience of photography review sites (and that of a few friends) to decided that a minority of men treat female opinions like some sort of hive mind? Of course you will! You'll find almost any problem you like if you look hard enough.

I think the most logical conclusion from your 'study' is that some people on the internet are obnoxious....


Now - I believe that there has in the past and continues today an unfair bias in many areas of life and that in some regards women are not treated fairly or equally to men. I also think that there are some areas in which the reverse is also found (not being as prevalent). In broader view the roles of men and women in our society are moving towards a much more equal footing but to deny the difference between men and women is futile (social conditioning or otherwise)
 
It would be lovely to have 'a woman's gaze' on an image. 100%. I'd really be intrigued to find someone who is capable of gazing in that way.

However 'the male gaze' describes a culturally conditioned way of thinking that almost all western men and women have - the gaze of a while male. It is not 'male' as in 'born with a penis' but rather gendered viewing.

We are not generalising that biologically men have 'the male gaze' and that women have a female gaze, but rather that we have been conditioned into viewing imagery over the last few centuries from the viewpoint of the classically dominant (white, educated, western) male.

I think I understand, but as you feel justifiably uncomfortable with being asked a woman's view, I am equally uncomfortable generalising that we have all been brainwashed into adopting a male gaze. All of us? I don't like certain types of photography of female models. How has that happened? Maybe it was those teenage years I lived in Africa, the western education indoctrination eluded me for a bit.

I agree that we are individuals and to ask us our opinion as representative of our gender is ridiculous, but then how do we get to a situation where we accept that we have a collective 'gaze' How many people have to share this collective gaze for it to be true. I'd say 96%. Try quantifying that.

It seems a sloppy and lazy generalisation by academics to describe why some people behave in a certain way. But as all stereotypes, such as the one I read in the Guardian this week that Art History, Kate Middleton's degree, is the subject of choice of 'posh girls' there may be an element of truth for a small number of people, but extrapolating this across an entire gender is as ridiculous as asking one person to talk for an entire gender.

Interesting post by the way, and please don't take this as an attack. It's different viewpoints and discussions like this that make forums worthwhile.
 
oh dear. You do seem to be the oddest poster on this forum.

@essexash - most easily explained by the forum being dominated by a very narrow range of points of view, therefore anyone with a different point of view will stand out as an oddity. This is a problem with TP (but it's a problem with most internet forums).
 
Most of the time it doesn't bother me providing the situation is approached and handled politely; if the client would rather interact with a female member of staff rather than myself then so be it, it's their choice.

While it doesn't cause me any great stress, it is still discrimination based on my gender. Presumptions and insinuations are made that I won't understand certain things because I'm male. At the end of the day, anyone with any intelligence recognisies my ability, and those that don't are basically stupid.
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I can understand your feelings. I graduated university many, many years ago with a science degree. I subsequently got a job in the pharmaceutical industry which meant I had considerable daily contact with doctors in both hospitals and general practice. A number of the doctors I had to work with were Asian in origin and some of them made it clear they did not wish to deal with me on any level. I was even told on a couple of occasions that they wished to only do business with men. As a well qualified and experienced person I was the one doing the job and it was not easy to replace me - my manager came out with me once and made it clear that he would not tolerate discrimination. These doctors would not shake my hand or address me directly, it made my job very difficult at times. I sincerely hope this kind of thing is no longer prevalent.

I had to go into A&E in December when I was ill. Because of my symptoms I was placed in Resuss - but the nurse attending me asked me whether I would prefer female only staff. I thanked them, and I said I had no preference, all that mattered to me was that the staff could do their job well. Whilst they believed they were being considerate, and certainly some cultures will expect those concessions, it saddened me a little, no professional person should be excluded because of their gender. I know that a lot of ladies prefer to see a female GP for certain ailments which they feel embarrassed to discuss with a man, but in A&E, for non-intimate conditions, it just felt a bit weird.
 
My assertion was that 'women on photography review sites are often treated like they have a hive mind while men are considered to have individual opinions'.

Why don't we say to a man 'it's great to get a man's opinion' but we do say 'it's great to get a woman's opinion'. It's that being lumped in with the opinion of everyone else that shares biology is what I see with the problem, while men don't have to put up with that.

A couple of years back when I was frequenting a large American photography forum when one of the posters (male) asked the question "why are there so few women posting here on xxxxx.net". I was absolutely horrified by some of the answers. I will stress however that I have never seen those views expressed (so horribly) on a British forum, but the prevailing opinion was that women cannot appreciate technical subjects, nor can they understand technical processes. A woman's ability to communicate information was also called into question, likewise female decision-making ability, female monetary accounting skills etc etc. I recall saying something in this thread and I received a Private message from one of the contributors, and the message chilled me. He basically said that women have come a long way but we're never happy - we should be thankful that we are allowed to do some of the things we now do so freely. The man in question was from a different part of the world and certainly does not represent male views in my own corner of the planet. I am fortunate to live in this country but we mustn't forget that the world is a big place and there are women out there who suffer terribly because of their gender, and they are suffering at the hands of men. Sometimes these opinions can creep into some international discussion boards, but as far as this thread is concerned I will presume we're talking more generally, about forums based in the Western world.

Aside from the example just mentioned, I do not feel I have been treated unfairly on the forums I post on, those are photography forums and car forums. But I have to wonder about something - maybe the response some women receive is down to the way in which they have stated their opinion or posed their questions? I don't want to be shot down for this, but some women can behave in a slightly fluffy manner, and I wonder if that can provoke a dismissive response (it might well irritate me, if I am perfectly honest). I am not fluffy, but on one car forum I got the usual assumptions thrown at me, that I had a husband who had bought me the car and they were wondering how long it would last, because I could not possibly know how to care for it or drive it properly. I feel the right thing to do in these situations is to stand your ground, and come back with a polite but firm reply refuting what has been said. After I did that, I was definitely treated in a more equal way and overall I have enjoyed my time on such forums. There will always be men who do not like women invading their turf, but this kind of thing is becoming rarer and overall I do not feel any sense of discomfort in posting on male oriented forums - in fact I have met several wonderful (male) friends by doing just that. I like men and women equally. And I take a dim view of sexism and discrimination, from either gender.

I sometimes get e-mails from men wanting "nude photography" and quite often this sounds distinctly weird and not the kind of nude photography I would want to do. Without exception, each and every one of them has said (when I've tried to direct them elsewhere) that they insist on a female photographer. I remember telling one chap that my assistant is male, and he said he required female only photography. Come to think of it, most of these men required that I attended alone, at an unknown place, in the evening .....

Male photographers on the other hand are often regarded with suspicion, no doubt assumptions are being made about their possible conduct if they're let loose anywhere near women and children - that must be upsetting for men at times and I get sick of hearing about how some schools are now asking for female photographers to do the school photos.

I had one male assistant who said he would do anything asked of him, except photograph or assist near nude men - it transpired that he was worried people would think he was gay if he was on set in the presence of nude blokes. There was a thread like this on the forum a few months ago, regarding camera club activities and someone hoping to arrange some nude studio photography - it was made clear that male nude models would not be acceptable (to the male photographers). Whilst I acknowledge that the male form may not be as interesting or picturesque as the female body (to some people) the notion that looking at a nude bloke will turn you gay is a bit far-fetched. However men are hugely susceptible to this kind of extreme social pressure, understandably, and no one wants to risk being labelled in the wrong way. Whilst women are pressured to look a certain way, males are pressured to conform to a level of traditionally masculine behaviour, and that does not include looking at other blokes' bodies, even if you're just making a sketch or photo (that's even worse, since it means you have a memento - hard proof of your deviant behaviour, and surely any self-respecting man will submit the picture to a ritual burning).

Following on from this, up until recent years male friends and relatives were restricted to shaking each other's hands. These days men are allowed to give each other a quick manly hug, should they wish to. Men have been raised to repress any normal affectionate feelings they might have towards another man. Just as women are generally raised to behave in a ladylike way and not express their own true feelings. Has been been change, and as a result I think male and female "roles" are now less defined - opening up more and more opportunities in life. .but not everyone is going to be happy about it. I had one widowed male friend say that he didn't like the way women didn't seem to respect him so much anymore - what he meant was, they do not defer to his personal needs or opinions in the way that he had always expected his wife to when they got married 35 years ago. To illustrate that some women also hold their own version of this, a couple of years back I met up with an old school friend quite by chance and I asked the usual question "wonderful to see you, what do you do?" She looked at me with a mixture of contempt and horror and snapped "I'm a housewife, please don't assume I have to work for a living". I'm rarely speechless - but that one stumped me. She clearly considered me a creature to pity because I had failed to develop sufficient female skills with which to catch a wealthy husband. We can however argue that these views may be reminiscent of a certain generation or age group and that children being raised now are (one hopes) less likely to be conditioned into traditional gender stereotypes. Perhaps this might also partly explain the forum experience referred to in Charlotte's essay.

I have no idea where this leads us (and I'm very sorry if I've wandered wildly off topic), other than to say that men and women do at times regard each other differently, but they also discriminate against their own gender just as much in my opinion.

Just to be clear, I love the vast majority of differences between men and women, and I can think of nothing worse than homogenisation of our respective traits. We just need to be more forgiving, more open-minded, less judgemental, and more accepting of the fact that we are all different. What a dreadful place the world would be if we all had the same opinions.
 
I go one step further. I don't believe in separating opinion, in the vast majority of cases, by biological sex.
.... Such a generalisation is, unless for theoretical study, utterly worthless.

And yet you go on to do exactly that


My assertion was that 'women on photography review sites are often treated like they have a hive mind while men are considered to have individual opinions'.
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The basic flaw with your assertion is (in my opinion) that like most generalisations, it's cobblers;

for one thing on many photo sites, including this one, people mostly use pseudonyms which in many cases are gender ambiguous, neutral, or misleading - for one of many example on here "Solo Man" , is actually female , while for another many photographers use pictures of their models for avatars rather than selfies - I can think of at least four male photographers who have female avatars and gender neutal screen names (plus a much larger number where i have no idea which gender they are)

And for another men are frequently asked for "a man's opinion on x" - although in my experience both genders are rarely asked that about a photograph,

most people seeking Crit (in my experience - I can't generalise beyond that) are seeking an individuals view irrespective of their gender - what they actually want to know is what another photographer thinks. If I ask "yv" for example for critique on a particular shot its not because i want her opinion as a woman - its because I want her opinion as an incredibly gifted and talented photographer (who is far better than me), if I directed the same question to hugh(boy fall down) it wouldnt because he's a bloke , but again because of his talent as a photographer

The basic problem is that you (and indeed any female) have just as little idea what it's like to be a man, as I (or any male) has of what its like to be a woman , and yet you seem happy to generalise about what men think, feel, experience , while at the same time denegrating them for doing likewise about women.

Even as a male, I have only a hazy idea (based on stereotypes and generalities) what another male is thinking, feeling, experiencing , because every individual is different .
 
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It was just something I wanted to write that was spurred on by a friends experiences.

I wonder if your friend just read too much into what was said? Remarks like that are usually said innocently, in the belief that a gender-based opinion may have particular relevance. All your friend has to do is politely assert that she is giving a personal opinion rather than one which should be viewed as exclusively feminine. It is not something I would take personally, if it were me. Nor does it mean that the man asking the question necessarily thinks any less of her.
 
I, males are pressured to conform to a level of traditionally masculine behaviour, and that does not include looking at other blokes' bodies, .

Unless they are rugby players of course, in which case they are likely to be considered "a bit gay" if they don't regularly get their genitals out in single sex company :LOL:

That aside personally I don't have a problem with looking at , or indeed taking, a nude of another man (In an art photo context i mean , I have no desire to look at homosexual pornography , but then again I don't have a great desire to view heterosexual porn either), but this position largely comes from the fact that (as you may have noticed ;)) I don't give much of a toss what anyone else thinks about me .. people who matter don't care, while people who care don't matter.
 
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. Nor does it mean that the man asking the question necessarily thinks any less of her.

Indeed - it may mean he thinks more of her than others he doesnt ask , because he perceives her as a perceptive individual who's views are worth listening too , and who's evaluation of what other women (or another woman) might think are likely to be accurate.

When I bought an engagement ring for the lady who is now my wife, I asked my best friend Jo for her opinion on the choices as a woman - not because I value her less than my male freinds , or that i don't see her as an individual , but because in that instance I needed some insight into what the now missus moose might think , and in that circumstance a man's opinion would be less likely to reflect those thoughts accurately.

Likewise if Jo asks me for a man's opinion on what she's buying for her husband's birthday it doesnt mean she sees me as a gender rather than an individual - instead its a compliment that she feels my views are worth listening to.
 
To be frank this

Of course it doesn't help that recently I've been devouring feminist critiques of imagery and educational texts as I prepared to study gender image within self-portraiture next year on my degree course.
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explains a lot about the issues many have with the argument expressed here.

Why are you concentrating on texts that conform to your world view ? If you want to be academically rigorous (and as a by product high grading) you should be studying critiques and sources from as wide a range of positions as possible , regardless of whether you agree with them or not.

For example I woud charecterise my political leaning as moderately centre right , but when I was working on Poli Sci units of my masters I read and drew quotes from a wide range of texts from Das Capital to Mein Kampf and assorted in between the better to understand and analyse the positions people have taken and the reasons behind them.

It is of course harder to read something that expresses views you find ridiculous or abhorrent, but credibity of analysis is not established by listening only to preaching to the choir.
 
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