The War on Immigration

lindsay said:
Well, I have had my human rights taken away (through Brexit) and have been persecuted by HMRC with demands for tax that are not due under the law of the land (but demanded with menaces by the Behaviour Modification Unit), so I'd like to claim asylum in an EU country. But of course Gina Miller lost her case on EU citizenship being a human rights issue, so that's me f***ed.:exit:
But more seriously, the relatively small number coming to the UK (compared with the rest of Europe) do need to be examined for motive and connection to the country, and a proportion are economic refugees - but who wouldn't go to another country if they thought they could have a better life? I did it when I moved to Germany for a while, and plan to do so again. I do think it's very cruel though to move a bunch of people to a third country where they are likely to face even greater difficulties, with little compassionate support, instead of just deporting them to whence they came. I also think it's awful for the Royal Navy to have been tasked with heading off the rubber boats when there are more important things to do.
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Linday as you've added a sad to my post I'll expand and clarify.

You don't appear to appreciate how large numbers of people feel on the issue of Brexit and immigration and to repeat and state the obvious, well it should be obvious, this is not an issue of racism. If you read the book I mentioned you'll see in an easy to read form the mechanisms and issues which lead to Brexit and the problems some communities face.

Some figures were quoted this morning on the news and Middlesbrough was specifically mentioned and only about 6% of asylum seekers are housed in the south east. The reasons for this are perhaps easy to understand as it's cheaper to house people in Middlesbrough than Godalming but only someone who is blind and deaf to the issues created by this can see this as a sustainable way to do things.

Criticise the government for doing this by all means but how about coming up with a real world sustainable alternative plan which prevents people risking their lives crossing one of the busiest stretches of water in the world in unsafe craft and prevents communities being overburdened with immigrants leading to housing and service shortages.
 
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Baloo said:
No, I read the methodology and understood how the figures were attained.
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And you believe that self declaration is 100% believable and unquestionable and a sustainable and safe way forward?

You beggar belief.
 
woof woof said:
You don't appear to appreciate how large numbers of people feel on the issue of Brexit and immigration and to repeat and state the obvious, well it should be obvious, this is not an issue of racism. If the read the book I mentioned you'll see in an easy to read form the mechanisms and issues which lead to Brexit and the problems some communities face.
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with a thirty year diet of right-wing nonsense in the media, like bendy bananas*, and a 250 year old campaign to denigrate black people so we felt less bad about enslaving them, it is easy to appreciate how large numbers of people have turned into narrow-minded insular citizens.

*an early Johnson lie. And we still elected him. Almost as manipulated as Brexit.
 
woof woof said:
And you believe that self declaration is 100% believable
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No, read the method by which the figures were calculated, I have given it to you in a previous post.
woof woof said:
and unquestionable and a sustainable and safe way forward?
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A strawman fallacy, please point to any post where I have given my opinion on immigration into this country, I have not, you have simply made it up. All I gave were the facts as presented by Full Fact.
woof woof said:
You beggar belief.
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Argument from incredulity and ad hom again!
 
illegals are basically bank robbers and criminals trying to break into our country.
by doing so they have shown they cannot be trusted so out you get !
 
Mr Bump said:
illegals are basically bank robbers and criminals trying to break into our country.
by doing so they have shown they cannot be trusted so out you get !
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Except neither of them is going to resign!
 
woof woof said:
Linday as you've added a sad to my post I'll expand and clarify.

You don't appear to appreciate how large numbers of people feel on the issue of Brexit and immigration and to repeat and state the obvious, well it should be obvious, this is not an issue of racism. If the read the book I mentioned you'll see in an easy to read form the mechanisms and issues which lead to Brexit and the problems some communities face.

Some figures were quoted this morning on the news and Middlesbrough was specifically mentioned and only about 6% of asylum seekers are housed in the south east. The reasons for this are perhaps easy to understand as it's cheaper to house people in Middlesbrough than Godalming but only someone who is blind and deaf to the issues created by this can see this as a sustainable way to do things.

Criticise the government for doing this by all means but how about coming up with a real world sustainable alternative plan which prevents people risking their lives crossing one of the busiest stretches of water in the world in unsafe craft and prevents communities being overburdened with immigrants leading to housing and service shortages.
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I added the sad emoticon because it is a sad state of affairs, and because it saddens me to see someone still buying into the Brexit lies. But I didn’t want to derail the thread by responding directly, which you’ve now obliged me to do.
I completely understand the issue of inadequate services to support the numbers of people being dropped into poorer communities. It is appalling that we seem to have a third world level of public services in this country and levels of poverty that should not exist in a first world country.
Having said all that, I still maintain that this country does less than its peers to cater for refugees and asylum seekers, in addition to having a poorer level of welfare provision for existing citizens such as state pensions and sickness benefits.
For me, I would far rather have an afghan. Syrian or Zimbabwean neighbour who is an economic migrant trying to make a better life, for a neighbour, than some of the lazy dirty English people in my community. But then I have lived in other countries in Europe and Asia and maybe am more accepting of diversity than some.
 
Pound Coin said:
with a thirty year diet of right-wing nonsense in the media, like bendy bananas*, and a 250 year old campaign to denigrate black people so we felt less bad about enslaving them, it is easy to appreciate how large numbers of people have turned into narrow-minded insular citizens.

*an early Johnson lie. And we still elected him. Almost as manipulated as Brexit.
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Oh dear. Triggered?

I was brought up in a staunchly Labour and staunchly non racist family. I've been on the left of politics all my life and I'm married to an immigrant so kindly throw your insinuations and racist accusations at someone else.
 
Baloo said:
No, read the method by which the figures were calculated, I have given it to you in a previous post.

A strawman fallacy, please point to any post where I have given my opinion on immigration into this country, I have not, you have simply made it up. All I gave were the facts as presented by Full Fact.

Argument from incredulity and ad hom again!
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Your point is built on faulty statistics. You simply can not rely on unquestioned self declaration or rather you can and you obviously do but to do so is naive, or stupid or perhaps just dishonest. In all cases it'll be damaging. Even the EC say that only 20% of asylum seekers are true asylum seekers.

To allow unquestioned self declaration will only perpetuate the cross channel problem, put lives in danger and make it harder for true asylum seekers to come to the UK. Can't you see that?

No answer required as this nonsense has reminded me how bizarre these threads can be.
 
lindsay said:
I added the sad emoticon because it is a sad state of affairs, and because it saddens me to see someone still buying into the Brexit lies. But I didn’t want to derail the thread by responding directly, which you’ve now obliged me to do.
I completely understand the issue of inadequate services to support the numbers of people being dropped into poorer communities. It is appalling that we seem to have a third world level of public services in this country and levels of poverty that should not exist in a first world country.
Having said all that, I still maintain that this country does less than its peers to cater for refugees and asylum seekers, in addition to having a poorer level of welfare provision for existing citizens such as state pensions and sickness benefits.
For me, I would far rather have an afghan. Syrian or Zimbabwean neighbour who is an economic migrant trying to make a better life, for a neighbour, than some of the lazy dirty English people in my community. But then I have lived in other countries in Europe and Asia and maybe am more accepting of diversity than some.
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People seem determined to blame inadequate services on growing population rather than short sightedness and lack of funding as well. With an aging population and a growing economy we need immigrants of all skill levels to bolster the workforce, and we've known this for decades. Any lack of services isn't the fault of migrants, asylum seekers, economic or otherwise, and entirely the fault of short sighted governments.
 
lindsay said:
I added the sad emoticon because it is a sad state of affairs, and because it saddens me to see someone still buying into the Brexit lies. But I didn’t want to derail the thread by responding directly, which you’ve now obliged me to do.
I completely understand the issue of inadequate services to support the numbers of people being dropped into poorer communities. It is appalling that we seem to have a third world level of public services in this country and levels of poverty that should not exist in a first world country.
Having said all that, I still maintain that this country does less than its peers to cater for refugees and asylum seekers, in addition to having a poorer level of welfare provision for existing citizens such as state pensions and sickness benefits.
For me, I would far rather have an afghan. Syrian or Zimbabwean neighbour who is an economic migrant trying to make a better life, for a neighbour, than some of the lazy dirty English people in my community. But then I have lived in other countries in Europe and Asia and maybe am more accepting of diversity than some.
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Need I remind you that Remain told lie after lie or perhaps they went unrecognised by you or perhaps have conveniently slipped from your memory?

I'm not surprised by your views and it's easy to throw vague accusations of the removal of human rights without stating examples. Lots of people do this but I suppose smartphone roaming charges count as a gross infringement of your human rights. Whatever. You and your side lost the debate and ensuing debacles and election but you show no indication that your willing to move on. Instead of bringing Brexit into every conversation why not just stop... and instead state an alterative path and in this instance what is the alternative to allowing the situation which we have now to continue?

I haven't lived abroad but I do live in a relatively deprived area so I've seen the results of years of failing policies and I have spent time abroad and my circle and love life looks like a soap opera filmed in the UN so I do have some insights. I can tell you that not everyone who voted for Brexit is a thick northern racist. I can tell you that mass immigration has caused and is causing real issues in some parts of the UK and just to stress yet again this isn't racism. There are real issue to address here and the one at hand is how we can stop large numbers of people risking their lives crossing the channel and what we do with them when / if they land here.
 
woof woof said:
Your point is built on faulty statistics. You simply can not rely on unquestioned self declaration or rather you can and you obviously do but to do so is naive, or stupid or perhaps just dishonest. In all cases it'll be damaging. Even the EC say that only 20% of asylum seekers are true asylum seekers.

To allow unquestioned self declaration will only perpetuate the cross channel problem, put lives in danger and make it harder for true asylum seekers to come to the UK. Can't you see that?

No answer required as this nonsense has reminded me how bizarre these threads can be.
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98% of those arriving by boat claim asylum, if our govt are so incompetent that it takes year to assess the claims, that's hardly the fault of the migrant.

The easiest solution would be to allow applications to be made in Calais, that would save a lot of lives.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
People seem determined to blame inadequate services on growing population rather than short sightedness and lack of funding as well. With an aging population and a growing economy we need immigrants of all skill levels to bolster the workforce, and we've known this for decades. Any lack of services isn't the fault of migrants, asylum seekers, economic or otherwise, and entirely the fault of short sighted governments.
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It's ok caring about people and believing that anyone who wants to come to the UK should be able to and be provided with accommodation and services, but how can it be possible? It's difficult to see how we find the room needed to build all of the houses, schools, hospitals and other infrastructure needed to accomodate large growths in the population and how we pay for it.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
98% of those arriving by boat claim asylum, if our govt are so incompetent that it takes year to assess the claims, that's hardly the fault of the migrant.

The easiest solution would be to allow applications to be made in Calais, that would save a lot of lives.
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It's not just incompetence, that's way too simplistic. Just one point, when the destruction of any ID documentation is routine and people are even advised to do this how do we know who they are and begin to assess their claim?

I suppose we just accept self declaration as the answer.
 
woof woof said:
It's ok caring about people and believing that anyone who wants to come to the UK should be able to and be provided with accommodation and services, but how can it be possible? It's difficult to see how we find the room needed to build all of the houses, schools, hospitals and other infrastructure needed to accomodate large growths in the population and how we pay for it.
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The lack of house building and treating houses as investments is a disgrace.

When I started this thread I wrote:

I do think that part of the solution must be an identity card system and probably registration of places of residence and better regulation of employment — which would require well funded local government and civil service — all of which are anathema to the Tories :( There would have been no “Windrush Scandal“ if people had proper identity documents.
 
woof woof said:
Oh dear. Triggered?

I was brought up in a staunchly Labour and staunchly non racist family. I've been on the left of politics all my life and I'm married to an immigrant so kindly throw your insinuations and racist accusations at someone else.
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They aren't racist accusations, they are facts. I'm sorry that you take them personally.

Boris did write lies that skewed the country's attitudes to Brexit.
Black people were decried as being thick and not feeling pain, which made slavery easier to justify.

The War on Immigration is informed by the attitudes (and voter intentions) generated by facts such as those above.
 
woof woof said:
Your point is built on faulty statistics. You simply can not rely on unquestioned self declaration or rather you can and you obviously do but to do so is naive, or stupid or perhaps just dishonest
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I never made a point, another strawman you have simply made up and then argued against.
Here is my original post.
Baloo said:
Just putting some facts into the debate.
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I have explained to you how the statistics were created, a request was the made to the Tory MP who made the original claim.

We could not find any figures to suggest that the majority of people crossing the Channel in small boats are economic migrants. We have asked Mr Benton if he has the data to support his claim. We contacted his office to ask for more information about his source, but did not receive a response.

Like yourself he did not provide any data to support his claim.

woof woof said:
In all cases it'll be damaging. Even the EC say that only 20% of asylum seekers are true asylum seekers.
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Source? The only evidence I can find is that 38% of asylum seekers were true asylum seekers EU wide.
woof woof said:
To allow unquestioned self declaration will only perpetuate the cross channel problem, put lives in danger and make it harder for true asylum seekers to come to the UK. Can't you see that?
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Yes I can see that, what I cannot understand is that you think that is what the statistics are based on when the report and particul;ary the methodology has been explained to you. Yet another strawman.
woof woof said:
No answer required as this nonsense has reminded me how bizarre these threads can be.
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I will decide what I reply to especially has you have already told me you were not continuing the debate but did so.
I will admit this is a bizarre discussion since first you tried to disparage the source, then you ignored the methodology, then you created strawmen that you argued with yourself about and through it all have been throwing ad hom at me!

Why don't you just provide some evidence to counter the data provided in my original source?
 
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sphexx said:
The lack of house building and treating houses as investments is a disgrace.

When I started this thread I wrote:

I do think that part of the solution must be an identity card system and probably registration of places of residence and better regulation of employment — which would require well funded local government and civil service — all of which are anathema to the Tories :( There would have been no “Windrush Scandal“ if people had proper identity documents.
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I agree but there's a but... where do we build? There is more than a bit of NIMBY about and not everyone can live in Middlesbrough. If we continue to believe that everyone or at least a good proportion of people entering the UK can live in Middlesbrough Middesbrough will possible one day be the biggest conurbation outside of China with a population bigger than any single European state and one day it'll be announced that the outskirts of Middlesbrough are now encroaching on Godalming, I suspect much to the constipation of some.

I just with the hyperbole, insinuation and insults could stop as it stifles debates which should take place. There's so much which just bumbles along because it's too difficult or inconvenient to face the fact that some things do need to be discussed and moved forward with.
 
Baloo said:
I will decide what I reply to especially has you have already told me you were not continuing the debate but did so.
I will admit this is a bizarre discussion since first you tried to disparage the source, then you ignored the methodology, then you created strawmen that you argued with yourself about and through it all have been throwing ad hom at me!

Why don't you just provide some evidence to counter the data provided in my original source?
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You simply must accept that self declaration is not acceptable and is in fact damaging and dangerous. Yet you have this as a cornerstone of your argument and continue to return to it.
 
woof woof said:
You simply must accept that self declaration is not acceptable and is in fact damaging and dangerous. Yet you have this as a cornerstone of your argument and continue to return to it.
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Of what argument, what argument do you think I am making?
 
woof woof said:
Need I remind you that Remain told lie after lie or perhaps they went unrecognised by you or perhaps have conveniently slipped from your memory?

I'm not surprised by your views and it's easy to throw vague accusations of the removal of human rights without stating examples. Lots of people do this but I suppose smartphone roaming charges count as a gross infringement of your human rights. Whatever. You and your side lost the debate and ensuing debacles and election but you show no indication that your willing to move on. Instead of bringing Brexit into every conversation why not just stop... and instead state an alterative path and in this instance what is the alternative to allowing the situation which we have now to continue?

I haven't lived abroad but I do live in a relatively deprived area so I've seen the results of years of failing policies and I have spent time abroad and my circle and love life looks like a soap opera filmed in the UN so I do have some insights. I can tell you that not everyone who voted for Brexit is a thick northern racist. I can tell you that mass immigration has caused and is causing real issues in some parts of the UK and just to stress yet again this isn't racism. There are real issue to address here and the one at hand is how we can stop large numbers of people risking their lives crossing the channel and what we do with them when / if they land here.
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Which lies did they tell?
 
woof woof said:
It's not just incompetence, that's way too simplistic. Just one point, when the destruction of any ID documentation is routine and people are even advised to do this how do we know who they are and begin to assess their claim?

I suppose we just accept self declaration as the answer.
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It absolutely is.

Well, incompetence and racism.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Which lies did they tell?
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Too many to list.

Project fear and a hundred pronouncements from predicted war in europe (caused by Brexit, not expansionist Ruskies) to the army handing out sandwiches and a population boom due to a lack of contraceptives.
 
woof woof said:
It's not just incompetence, that's way too simplistic. Just one point, when the destruction of any ID documentation is routine and people are even advised to do this how do we know who they are and begin to assess their claim?

I suppose we just accept self declaration as the answer.
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The easy solution to the ID problem is to do what the EU does, capture biometric id at the point of asylum application, and concomitantly with that have a national ID card system so that a person's identity can be obtained at any time by cross-checking biometrics with the card. They (EU) have the VISA system (built at the same time as SISII) to capture this information, as well as Prüm and SISII for validation and checking, but the UK is very sadly lacking in this area now. I do know that the HO and MoJ are busy looking at biometric id systems (don't ask, I am not allowed to discuss) but they are playing catch-up, and still the issue of national id cards is the thing that prevents public safety etc.

I'm not going to be drawn into the B-word discussion as it is thread drift and pointless.
 
lindsay said:
The easy solution to the ID problem is to do what the EU does, capture biometric id at the point of asylum application, and concomitantly with that have a national ID card system so that a person's identity can be obtained at any time by cross-checking biometrics with the card. They (EU) have the VISA system (built at the same time as SISII) to capture this information, as well as Prüm and SISII for validation and checking, but the UK is very sadly lacking in this area now. I do know that the HO and MoJ are busy looking at biometric id systems (don't ask, I am not allowed to discuss) but they are playing catch-up, and still the issue of national id cards is the thing that prevents public safety etc.

I'm not going to be drawn into the B-word discussion as it is thread drift and pointless.
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Thank you for a considered contribution and for avoiding Brexit. I think it should be avoided unless absolutely necessary and it isn't in this thread.

I have mixed feelings on ID, my main concerns being use, security and mission creep. My wife has a biometric card and is able to share data with various bodies on line by generating a Share Code, their ability to access this information lasting just a short time before a new share code is needed. It seems to work quite well despite some obvious glitches which really should be ironed out.

I usually don't buy into conspiracy theories but I do think they're worth looking into from time to time and some of the possible misuses pointed out by people who tend to see the worst case scenario are frightening and there's no denying that there has been some mission creep with the systems we've seen so far.

So, for me any form of ID system needs to be bullet proof with defined and irreversible limitations (no change without a national consultation and maybe a vote...) because I fear that the sad fact is that we just can not trust this or any future government to stick to the original plan.

Just a little what if scenario...

What if you came to someone's attention? Lets suppose you attended a demonstration, a peaceful and lawful one, or what if you had a particular medical issue? What if you then found you couldn't access your bank account or could only buy certain government approved products at the supermarket or found that you couldn't buy a train ticket to go to the cup final? What if you found that you're insurance cover went up for no reason you could see or you were constantly bombarded by junk phone calls? Of course, nothing like that could ever happen.
 
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Pound Coin said:
They aren't racist accusations, they are facts. I'm sorry that you take them personally.

Boris did write lies that skewed the country's attitudes to Brexit.
Black people were decried as being thick and not feeling pain, which made slavery easier to justify.

The War on Immigration is informed by the attitudes (and voter intentions) generated by facts such as those above.
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If I could be bothered I'd provide a possible counter point to all of those points but what's the point, there is no point.

I will however accept that you didn't mean to imply that I'm a racist. If we can accept that we're all decent people that's a start and something to keep returning to when things seem to be heated.
 
On the other hand, a large proportion of obviously non-British nationals stopped by police give false names, and there is no way of verifying the name unless they are actually arrested so that a fingerprint can be taken and matched against existing records. A lot of British nationals of whatever sociological profile do the same of course, denying possession of a driving licence for example or using a fake.
How systems are used by governments is a whole extra level of doo-doo though - look at how the Internet, intended as a force for knowledge growth, has been turned into a tool for organised crime. Abuse is inevitable but we need to weight the risk of that against the benefits obtained ordinarily.
Regarding immigration, I still maintain that we gain more than it costs, it is just very poorly managed, and public services have been left to fail by successive governments focused on tax cuts and market economy.
 
woof woof said:
I agree but there's a but... where do we build?
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I’ve offered a solution to that before when I learned how much green desert (aka golf courses) there is in the SE, Surrey particularly I think. Just give all golf course blanket permission to build on them and see what happens. I suspect a lot would take the money and run (to Middlesbrough perhaps and build new courses there, :lol:
 
I assume that we (the UK) will make sure that any people we send to Rwanda are fully vaccinated against diseases there?
 
lindsay said:
On the other hand, a large proportion of obviously non-British nationals stopped by police give false names, and there is no way of verifying the name unless they are actually arrested so that a fingerprint can be taken and matched against existing records.
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This has been a battleground for decades.

Too many people, otherwise sane, think that an identity card is an utter infringement of their civil liberties. I suspect that those are the first to criticise "the authorities" when outrages occur, which could have been prevented or mitigated by giving police and others the chance to positively identify a person.

I would rather be asked for my identity card by a police officer than blown up by a madman - but I'm funny that way... :tumbleweed:
 
I think your chances of being blown up by a mad man are so low* that ID cards would be utterly out of proportion.

* perhaps we could have a table showing Terrorist caused deaths against other cases of death, to illustrate this...
 
Pound Coin said:
I think your chances of being blown up by a mad man are so low* that ID cards would be utterly out of proportion.

* perhaps we could have a table showing Terrorist caused deaths against other cases of death, to illustrate this...
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3795 since 1970, that compares with 1752 road deaths in 2019, that plummeted to 582 during lockdown. My conclusion do not issue ID cards, keep everyone in lockdown! :D

Obviously if you are PM you can just keep breaking lockdown laws anyway!
 
sphexx said:
Shipping people to Rwanda won’t work but it’ll be a nice little earner to replace PPE etc fiddles when they run out. Like the War on Drugs ™ it’ll probabably put up the prices that smugglers can charge.

Like “drugs” the Tories have no desire to solve the “problem” because it’s vote winner with unthinking people.

Unlike “drugs” I don’t know what the solution is though I agree that unrestricted migration is undesirable in the modern world and also that the asylum system is broken since nearly everybody has a “well founded fear of persecution” (exaggeration!).

I do think that part of the solution must be an identity card system and probably registration of places of residence and better regulation of employment — which would require well funded local government and civil service — all of which are anathema to the Tories :( There would have been no “Windrush Scandal“ if people had proper identity documents.
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"Shipping people to Rwanda won’t work"

In one respect it will work. In fact it has already started to work. Keir Starmer wasted no time in getting up on his hind legs and condemning it. That is him and his party again tarred with their old reputation of being soft on immigration. That is a vote loser.
 
Plain Nev said:
Would it be overly cynical of me to point out that local elections are due in May?
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Not atall. My wife suggested 'partygate'. No,I said..they want to appeal to those who voted for Brexit..the read wall voters re the immigration issue..'control our own borders' They can whistle in the wind because they're going to take a battering on May 25th.

Anyway...lol..this will surprise a lot of people :) I appreciate it's about 'failed asylum seekers not ones to be processed but nevertheless...

Guardian article dated February 26th 2004:

South Africa last night emerged as the second country with which the Home Office has started talks to take failed asylum seekers from Britain as part of a concerted drive to step up immigration removals and deportations.

Tony Blair confirmed in the Commons yesterday the Guardian's disclosure that negotiations with Tanzania are already under way for a £4m British-funded pilot scheme under which rejected asylum seekers would be sent to the African country as part of an overseas aid deal.


www.theguardian.com

South African help sought on refugees

South Africa emerges as the second country in talks to take failed asylum seekers from Britain as part of a concerted drive to step up immigration removals and deportations.
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
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