The virus. PPE. Part 1

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The logical end to all this re-hashing of history would be to blow up the Houses of Parliament, didn’t end too well for poor Guido though :(.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
I think you're confusing legal, with acceptable. A great many at the time, didn't find the practice of slavery acceptable. Not least the slaves themselves.

It might have been legal, but it was certainly never moral, acceptable, or right. By any standards of any time.

Did Colston have any achievements of note outside slavery? Or is it just that he donated some of his money to good causes? What did he do worth of celebration?

Leaving a statue up celebrating a slave trader, is the exact opposite of learning from history IMO. Buildings paid for by his money, serve a purpose. A statue just celebrates. And let's face it, he never thought when donating his money it was ever going to go toward helping anyone that wasn't white.
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I do disagree with it being not acceptable in the past - how do you know what was acceptable back in the day - in the 1700s for example, while some would have thought slavery unacceptable, many would have seen it acceptable, hence the fact it carried on. Slavery in some form has existed for thousands of years.

It happens in all areas, at some point in history we realise that our treatment of types of people is wrong and we look to address that. From discrimination against women or races, through to banning chemical weapons etc... we realise our behaviour is wrong and we seek to change it.
 
sphexx said:
Google seems to agree with me, he was a Tory, the Conservative Party dates from 1830 ;).
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Yeah, you are quite right but what's in a name, a bit like Blair was a Labour PM when in fact he was a New Labour PM.....
 
mex said:
Yeah, you are quite right but what's in a name, a bit like Blair was a Labour PM when in fact he was a New Labour PM.....
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And he was the most successful, successful as in being in power.
 
woof woof said:
And he was the most successful, successful as in being in power.
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Whatever anyone thinks of Blair, he was a pragmatist, he knew what labour needed to do to keep in power. It’s no accident he won three terms for the Labour Party.
 
cambsno said:
But that is it - it is history. Until the 1800s, slavery was an accepted practice and although not acceptable in todays times, was perfectly acceptable to the people of the time, until people like Wilberforce started to change things. There are many things that happened 200/300/400 years ago that are beyond belief with todays head on, but they happened and many countries in the world have been guilty of.
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I find it hard to believe that black slaves thought this :thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking:
 
jakeblu said:
Whatever anyone thinks of Blair, he was a pragmatist, he knew what labour needed to do to keep in power. It’s no accident he won three terms for the Labour Party.
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And like him or not he was instrumental to bringing peace to Northern Ireland
 
Donnie said:
I find it hard to believe that black slaves thought this :thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking:
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There were doubtless plenty of "black" people enslaving others at that time, before and after. I do understand what you're saying but the slave trade was never as simple as being an evil activity invented by white men and consisting of white men arriving in Africa, capturing the locals and selling them into slavery. The white world has a lot to answer for as do others who were and are active in the practice throughout the world.

I still think the best thing to do is to draw a line under historical wrongs and move forward with a view to ensuring race isn't an issue. Not only that but the world should put effort into abolishing slavery whenever and wherever it occurs.
 
woof woof said:
There were doubtless plenty of "black" people enslaving others at that time, before and after. I do understand what you're saying but the slave trade was never as simple as being an evil activity invented by white men and consisting of white men arriving in Africa, capturing the locals and selling them into slavery. The white world has a lot to answer for as do others who were and are active in the practice throughout the world.

I still think the best thing to do is to draw a line under historical wrongs and move forward with a view to ensuring race isn't an issue. Not only that but the world should put effort into abolishing slavery whenever and wherever it occurs.
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You make valid points about slavery, but the world hasn't moved on, and black people are still feeling the effects of slavery and racial discrimination today .
 
cambsno said:
But that is it - it is history. Until the 1800s, slavery was an accepted practice and although not acceptable in todays times, was perfectly acceptable to the people of the time, until people like Wilberforce started to change things. There are many things that happened 200/300/400 years ago that are beyond belief with todays head on, but they happened and many countries in the world have been guilty of.
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Donnie said:
I find it hard to believe that black slaves thought this :thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking:
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woof woof said:
There were doubtless plenty of "black" people enslaving others at that time, before and after. I do understand what you're saying but the slave trade was never as simple as being an evil activity invented by white men and consisting of white men arriving in Africa, capturing the locals and selling them into slavery. The white world has a lot to answer for as do others who were and are active in the practice throughout the world.
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I don't think you do understand what I was saying, I was only pointing out the daftness of the point made by cambsno. ie that slavery was perfectly acceptable to the people of the time.
 
jakeblu said:
You make valid points about slavery, but the world hasn't moved on, and black people are still feeling the effects of slavery and racial discrimination today .
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Can we possibly at least attempt to drop the word "black"?

People are suffering discrimination and no doubt many exist even today in a state of slavery. It really shouldn't matter what colour or nationality they are. I see every reason to see people being discriminated against as people rather than using potentially divisive labels which stand the chance of perpetuating divisions in society.
 
woof woof said:
Can we possibly at least attempt to drop the word "black"?

People are suffering discrimination and no doubt many exist even today in a state of slavery. It really shouldn't matter what colour or nationality they are. I see every reason to see people being discriminated against as people rather than using potentially divisive labels which stand the chance of perpetuating divisions in society.
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We're not talking about criminal acts of sex slave trafficking, gang slave trafficking or other slavery which happens around the world and in this country. This is different this is institutionalised, its in the very fabric of society.
 
Donnie said:
I was only pointing out the daftness of the point made by cambsno. ie that slavery was perfectly acceptable to the people of the time.
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I don't see it as a daft statement. When something is the common lot, it takes a very odd person, in the perception of the majority, to take exception to it.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I don't see it as a daft statement. When something is the common lot, it takes a very odd person, in the perception of the majority, to take exception to it.
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So, are you saying that slavery was perfectly acceptable to the people of the time? :thinking::thinking:
 
When are they all going to jump on planes and boats and travel to Egypt to pull down the pyramids? :D
 
Donnie said:
I find it hard to believe that black slaves thought this :thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking:
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Those that were slaves probably weren't to keen on it but slavery existed in Africa long before the Atlantic slave trade and continued long after it stopped, so some must thought so.
 
tarric said:
Those that were slaves probably weren't to keen on it but slavery existed in Africa long before the Atlantic slave trade and continued long after it stopped, so some must thought so.
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Some perhaps, not all though I'd imagine
 
gman said:
When are they all going to jump on planes and boats and travel to Egypt to pull down the pyramids? :D
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Why would they do that? They were built by a civilisation, not after the fact to celebrate slave owners.
 
jakeblu said:
We're not talking about criminal acts of sex slave trafficking, gang slave trafficking or other slavery which happens around the world and in this country. This is different this is institutionalised, its in the very fabric of society.
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The fact is that it's not only people of one race who are subjected to slavery. You do accept that? That is in part my point. No one nationality or people has ownership of this issue, it's not just a "black" and "white issue" although some seem to believe it is. It has in the past affected all parts of the world and today it still happens and not just the sex trade. I know you know this and I assume you've read reports of it happening in the world today, slave markets in north africa for one example? As for the fabric of society, the names and places show the evidence of the past as does some language in every day use but these are only true to certain extents. Not everything is as visible and offensive as statues of slave traders and all I'm asking is that people at least try and forgive and move on from this, be better people and make a better society and not just keep picking at the scabs. No chance I know.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Why would they do that? They were built by a civilisation, not after the fact to celebrate slave owners.
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I can't believe I'm wasting my time typing this...

You do know they were built with slave labour?
 
woof woof said:
I can't believe I'm wasting my time typing this...

You do know they were built with slave labour?
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Yes.

Still not the same thing as a statue of a slave trader though is it.

The statue was neither built by slaves, culturally significant or served any purpose.
 
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I assume everyone who thinks the statue being pulled down is ridiculous had similar opinions when the statue of Saddam was toppled or when Germany got rid of all the nazi statues?

No? Thought not.
 
Most of the slaves taken from Africa were either sold by their own families or captured by other africans and traded for the goods the slavers bought with them, so no one is blameless in this affair.
You can't tell me that those who captured the slaves didn't know of the misery they were going to suffer
greed compelled them to carry condemning them too it and yet they carried on
 
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Donnie said:
I don't think you do understand what I was saying, I was only pointing out the daftness of the point made by cambsno. ie that slavery was perfectly acceptable to the people of the time.
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You do know that I was not speaking on behalf of everyone, just that it was generally accepted at the time, the same as many other not very good things.
 
I wonder if rather than destroy these statues etc they should be moved to a permanent display of the slave trade, it needs remembering not throwing in a dock and get forgotten, we already have sections of humanity denying the holocaust

Not something that should be celebrated but remember
 
lol @ Andy. You do crack me up sometimes. :D
 
KitsuneAndy said:
I assume everyone who thinks the statue being pulled down is ridiculous had similar opinions when the statue of Saddam was toppled or when Germany got rid of all the nazi statues?

No? Thought not.
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Quite a bit different - this was c250 years after his death, and AFAIK, was not found guilty of any wrong-doing at the time (technically I guess Hitler wasnt either but you know what I mean) - and these were in a war zone.

Where does it end though, can people just pull down statues of people they dont agree with - people may want to damage things like the tributes to Allied bomber pilots as they killed tens of thousands of civilians, Churchill because of racist views, or any other famous figure because of the views they had at the time?

It is one thing to campaign and democratically want this removed, or as someone suggested, add a plaque to explain who he was and how his 'legacy' was generated and used as an education piece. Maybe that could be a lot more powerful. But it wasnt, it was mob rule!
 
jakeblu said:
You make valid points about slavery, but the world hasn't moved on, and black people are still feeling the effects of slavery and racial discrimination today .
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As white British male I feel discriminated by the PC brigade., however I do not go around defacing our historic monuments, assaulting our emergency workers and trying to set fire to our flag at the cenataph.
 
Tori_T said:
Current wisdom is that the builders were either paid builders, or citizens performing a version of National Service.
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But I bet they didnt follow H&S guidelines, wore safety gear etc... so still evil!:)
 
woof woof said:
I can't believe I'm wasting my time typing this...

You do know they were built with slave labour?
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To be fair, that has now been disputed by numerous historians, many of the 'workers' were apparently volunteers and were very well looked after ,fed and homed.
 
Tori_T said:
Current wisdom is that the builders were either paid builders, or citizens performing a version of National Service.
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Unless of course you prefer to believe the Cecil B. Demille's version of events.
 
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