The virus. PPE. Part 1

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I find it interesting that theres a lot of data apparantly missing off the worldometer site for the UK today? Ive not looked for a couple of weeks so don't know how long its been like this? eg the recovered number currently says N/A???

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/
 
I find it interesting that theres a lot of data apparantly missing off the worldometer site for the UK today? Ive not looked for a couple of weeks so don't know how long its been like this? eg the recovered number currently says N/A???

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

I don't think we've been reporting the recovered number at all. Which in a way makes sense, as it's a fairly meaningless number for tracking the current threat from COVID
 
I wouldn't equate protesting for human rights to going for a jolly at the beach.

I can't pretend to understand the suffering that POC have gone through over the years, so I can't condemn their actions. White folk telling black folk what they should and should not be doing is the entire issue.
I know what you mean but “black folk” can be wrong too, they’re only human :).
 
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I think recovered numbers were only issued by the UK in the early days of the epidemic. When they hadn't been updated for a long time and had become meaningless, Worldometer removed them. Some other figures (for all countries) get updated piecemeal over the course of the day, so it's often more informative to click on 'Yesterday' when looking at the main international table.

Edit: The Johns Hopkins dashboard still has an old 'recovered' number for the UK: 1,239!
 
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Thank you, Nigel for pointing out all the other cases that have been done to death already in this and other threads.

My post was in no way blaming the people who have had the s***tty end of the stick for centuries because they're an easy target. It is blaming the complete and utter stupidity of all those who chose to undo all the hard work of everyone over the previous weeks of lockdown.

I know that we are lucky in this country to have the right to protest but I cannot accept that gives anyone the right to put others at risk no matter who they are.

Heather, I get that, but don't you think you are being just a bit selective about who is or who isn't to blame? You can't have it both ways, if this weekends protesters are out of order, then so is everyone else who deliberately or inadvertently went out during lockdown along with those that seem all too eager to wash their hands of any blame.
 
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Anyone who is sat here criticising the BLM movement and protests, while believing they're not at all racist, could probably do with reading this book. Doubly so if they're critical of the toppling of the Colston statue.

You don't think you're being racist because it's so ingrained in our society by design.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Longer-Talking-White-People-About/dp/1408870584/ref=sr_1_1?crid=H1X7821MR48Z&dchild=1&keywords=why+i+m+no+longer+speaking+to+white+people+about+race&qid=1591605924&sprefix=why+i'm+,aps,154&sr=8-1

Hands up until this week who hadn't really thought about the connotations of speedlight terminology? Master flash and slave flash? I hadn't considered it. That's white privilege. We're all guilty of it, and we need to accept that and do our best to change it, if we truly want all lives to matter equally. Because right now, they don't.
Racism is a ‘natural’ feature of human societies. Some of the most racist people on the world have non-Caucasian skin colours.

Slavery was and is today practised in several African (sub saharan) countries.

Most (90%) Anglo-Saxon English people were not free until around 1300 and some at least could be bought & sold (ie unconnected to the land they were on) like ”ordinary“ slaves. Considerable numbers of British coastal people were subject to slave raiders from Africa around 1500AD and sold into slavery in Africa.

So frankly I don’t worry much about Master & Slave Flash, it seems an accurate description, Are we going to worry about Black & White photography next?

Rant off :(
 
Racism is a ‘natural’ feature of human societies. Some of the most racist people on the world have non-Caucasian skin colours.

Slavery was and is today practised in several African (sub saharan) countries.

Most (90%) Anglo-Saxon English people were not free until around 1300 and some at least could be bought & sold (ie unconnected to the land they were on) like ”ordinary“ slaves. Considerable numbers of British coastal people were subject to slave raiders from Africa around 1500AD and sold into slavery in Africa.

So frankly I don’t worry much about Master & Slave Flash, it seems an accurate description, Are we going to worry about Black & White photography next?

Rant off :(

Black and white doesn't have any negative connotations. And the fact that we might not associate master and slave with anything negative, is a privilege many don't have.

The fact that other people are guilty of racism and of slavery, doesn't change history.
 
Black and white doesn't have any negative connotations. And the fact that we might not associate master and slave with anything negative, is a privilege many don't have.

The fact that other people are guilty of racism and of slavery, doesn't change history.

Is this your idea of keeping this thread about the Virus and out of the Hot Topics section, p*** poor attempt if it is
 
Black and white doesn't have any negative connotations. And the fact that we might not associate master and slave with anything negative, is a privilege many don't have.

The fact that other people are guilty of racism and of slavery, doesn't change history.
But it is history which is exactly what the protesters are about when they topple Colton’s statue :(. Personally, I think they play into the hands of the extreme right with those sorts of actions/arguments.
 
But it is history which is exactly what the protesters are about when they topple Colton’s statue :(. Personally, I think they play into the hands of the extreme right with those sorts of actions/arguments.

I think they did the right thing, it's something that should have been taken down years, if not centuries ago, it's a monument to a guy who sold men, women and children into slavery, ( nevermind those who lost their lives in the proccess) but by all means please justify why such a monument deserves a podium in a public place?
 
I think they did the right thing, it's something that should have been taken down years, if not centuries ago, it's a monument to a guy who sold men, women and children into slavery, ( nevermind those who lost their lives in the proccess) but by all means please justify why such a monument deserves a podium in a public place?
I don’t know anything about him but I would be happy to see it removed and put in a museum or wherever, it is just that I disagree with the counter-productive methods.
 
Anyone who is sat here criticising the BLM movement and protests, while believing they're not at all racist, could probably do with reading this book. Doubly so if they're critical of the toppling of the Colston statue.

You don't think you're being racist because it's so ingrained in our society by design.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Longer-Talking-White-People-About/dp/1408870584/ref=sr_1_1?crid=H1X7821MR48Z&dchild=1&keywords=why+i+m+no+longer+speaking+to+white+people+about+race&qid=1591605924&sprefix=why+i'm+,aps,154&sr=8-1

Hands up until this week who hadn't really thought about the connotations of speedlight terminology? Master flash and slave flash? I hadn't considered it. That's white privilege. We're all guilty of it, and we need to accept that and do our best to change it, if we truly want all lives to matter equally. Because right now, they don't.

I see and admire the sentiment but another way could be to forgive, forget and move on. Must we constantly beat ourselves up over events hundreds of years ago and do we have to invent some new completely new pc language to break from the past? Doubtless some would have us do these things but where do we stop? There was an interesting question on R5 this morning, do we tear down the Colosseum? Do we rename Penny Lane? Apparently some want to rename it Beatle Street.

As Richard highlights the British have been subjected to slavery and crimes against humanity so how far do we go back and where do we stop? The Normans? The Vikings? The Anglo Saxons? The Celts? How far do we go back to tear down statues, demolish buildings and rename streets? The Beaker People? Can we stop with them? Are the Danes beating themselves up every day about crimes against humanity carried out in England in 814? I don't know, maybe they are and if they are as a possible victim of their historic crimes I'd urge them to stop flagellating and move on. I'm all for equality and I argue for it and against discrimination whenever I see it and we have to work hard to ensure that "race" is a non issue but can we just stop going back in time and beating ourselves up, over speedlights?

I think that statues and buildings are a difficult question. I wouldn't like to see the Colosseum or anything like it torn down but I'd be happy to see relatively minor things like statues of people almost lost in time who were involved in the slave trade replaced as they are repugnant if we stop to find out who they are and how they made their money. Buildings could be renamed and offensive plaques could be removed. Where they're taken on a new life, like Penny Lane, I'd hate to see them renamed "Beatle Street" and instead I'd rather see them rededicated but keeping the name as it arguably has lost its old connotation and taken on a new one nothing to do with the original.

Can't we just have a peace and reconciliation movement and move on? Together?
 
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I see and admire the sentiment but another way could be to forgive, forget and move on. Must we constantly beat ourselves up over events hundreds of years ago and do we have to invent some new completely new pc language to break from the past? Doubtless some would have us do these things but where do we stop? There was an interesting question on R5 this morning, do we tear down the Colosseum? Do we rename Penny Lane? Apparently some want to rename it Beatle Street.

As Richard highlights the British have been subjected to slavery and crimes against humanity so how far do we go back and where do we stop? The Normans? The Vikings? The Anglo Saxons? The Celts? How far do we go back to tear down statues, demolish buildings and rename streets? The Beaker People? Can we stop with them? Are the Danes beating themselves up every day about crimes against humanity carried out in England in 814? I don't know, maybe they are and if they are as a possible victim or their historic crimes I'd urge them to stop flagellating and move on. I'm all for equality and I argue for it and against discrimination whenever I see it and we have to work hard to ensure that "race" is a non issue but can we just stop going back in time and beating ourselves up, over speedlights?

I think that statues and buildings are a difficult question. I wouldn't like to see the Colosseum or anything like it torn down but I'd be happy to see relatively minor things like statues of people almost lost in time who were involved in the slave trade replaced as they are repugnant if we stop to find out who they are and how they made their money. Buildings could be renamed and offensive plaques could be removed. Where they're taken on a new life, like Penny Lane, I'd hate to see them renamed "Beatle Street" and instead I'd rather see them rededicated but keeping the name as it arguably has lost its old connotation and taken on a new one nothing to do with the original.

Can't we just have a peace and reconciliation movement and move on? Together?

Indeed, in another context, I have been fond of saying “the trouble* with “the Irish” (IRA etc)” is they have no sense of history, meaning that terrible things were done in Ireland but similar things were done in a England, and we are where we are and need to deal with the present, which will become history in due course.

Similarly with today’s racial and other prejudices.

(*no pun intended :))
 
I see and admire the sentiment but another way could be to forgive, forget and move on. Must we constantly beat ourselves up over events hundreds of years ago and do we have to invent some new completely new pc language to break from the past? Doubtless some would have us do these things but where do we stop? There was an interesting question on R5 this morning, do we tear down the Colosseum? Do we rename Penny Lane? Apparently some want to rename it Beatle Street.

As Richard highlights the British have been subjected to slavery and crimes against humanity so how far do we go back and where do we stop? The Normans? The Vikings? The Anglo Saxons? The Celts? How far do we go back to tear down statues, demolish buildings and rename streets? The Beaker People? Can we stop with them? Are the Danes beating themselves up every day about crimes against humanity carried out in England in 814? I don't know, maybe they are and if they are as a possible victim or their historic crimes I'd urge them to stop flagellating and move on. I'm all for equality and I argue for it and against discrimination whenever I see it and we have to work hard to ensure that "race" is a non issue but can we just stop going back in time and beating ourselves up, over speedlights?

I think that statues and buildings are a difficult question. I wouldn't like to see the Colosseum or anything like it torn down but I'd be happy to see relatively minor things like statues of people almost lost in time who were involved in the slave trade replaced as they are repugnant if we stop to find out who they are and how they made their money. Buildings could be renamed and offensive plaques could be removed. Where they're taken on a new life, like Penny Lane, I'd hate to see them renamed "Beatle Street" and instead I'd rather see them rededicated but keeping the name as it arguably has lost its old connotation and taken on a new one nothing to do with the original.

Can't we just have a peace and reconciliation movement and move on? Together?

Indeed, in another context, I have been fond of saying “the trouble* with “the Irish” (IRA etc)” is they have no sense of history, meaning that terrible things were done in Ireland but similar things were done in a England, and we are where we are and need to deal with the present, which will become history in due course.

Similarly with today’s racial and other prejudices.

(*no pun intended :))
 
it is just that I disagree with the counter-productive methods.
Yes, this is the point that so many miss. The thugs of the left harm social justice as much as, if not more than, the thugs of the right. To be clear: I disapprove of all statues of "important" people but I disapprove more of vandalism which masquerades as "social protest".
 
Yes, this is the point that so many miss. The thugs of the left harm social justice as much as, if not more than, the thugs of the right. To be clear: I disapprove of all statues of "important" people but I disapprove more of vandalism which masquerades as "social protest".
Yes. Funny that people protest in Trafalgar Square under Nelson’s Column :). I don’t propose we pull it down (and he was a great sailor) but what about all the pressed men (of all nationalities and colours) who were in many ways similar to slaves — and yes, I know a lot were sailors too, but not all.
 
Black and white doesn't have any negative connotations. And the fact that we might not associate master and slave with anything negative, is a privilege many don't have.

The fact that other people are guilty of racism and of slavery, doesn't change history.

But that is it - it is history. Until the 1800s, slavery was an accepted practice and although not acceptable in todays times, was perfectly acceptable to the people of the time, until people like Wilberforce started to change things. There are many things that happened 200/300/400 years ago that are beyond belief with todays head on, but they happened and many countries in the world have been guilty of.

Can we change history - no, can we learn from it - yes.

What next, removing the statues of any British PMs pre-1833 as they had ruled a country which endorsed and accepted slavery? This would also include the Duke of Wellington who would have been found guilty in todays courts of many crimes against his men, so maybe he should be struck off too? Maybe all the building he built should be torn down as they were paid for by the lives of slaves? As Richard said, the manner in which this was done was basically mob rule.
 
Interested in your thoughts here;

The UK has approximately 0.87% of the Worlds population.
With 40,000 deaths (very conservative figure) and an estimated 400,000 World deaths my shaky arithmetic suggests we have 10% of the total World deaths.

OK, bearing the above in mind, who would you have chosen to lead us through this pandemic.

A. Boris Johnson.
B. David Icke.
C. Paul Gascoigne.
D Micky Mouse.
E. Robert Mugabe.
F. Jeremy Clarkson.

Many more names came to mind, if you want to 'throw someone into the ring' Go for it :exit:

My thoughts ? well my vote goes to Micky Mouse. (surely he would be an improvement on what we have ?)
 
Yes. Funny that people protest in Trafalgar Square under Nelson’s Column :). I don’t propose we pull it down (and he was a great sailor) but what about all the pressed men (of all nationalities and colours) who were in many ways similar to slaves — and yes, I know a lot were sailors too, but not all.

That's something that gets shown in old movies from time to time, taking the Kings shilling also springs to mind and we still have tankards with a glass bottom to this day.

I think that unfortunately maybe the new enlightened movement is towards owning issues and (re)branding and copyrighting them and any deviation from the accepted limitations of use are banned with stiff penalties for transgressors. All very 1984.

I do wish we could move on and it's interesting that sometimes the most vocal and strident on this are privileged metropolitan entitled white people. I don't know what that tells us, it's just interesting. Rather than constantly beating ourselves up I do wish we could from this second maybe just do everything we can in life today to "Be excellent to each other" and do our best to ensure that the creed and the colour and the name wont matter.

One last thing springs to mind.

I watched an old Twilight zone type thing some time ago and the plot was that in the reality of the story everyone remembered their past lives, you had to put your previous three lives o your CV, things like that and as one byproduct of this they were running round murdering each other over past life feuds. Our protagonist couldn't remember and this was seen to be a good thing, so much so that people came forward for hypnotherapy to forget so that they could move on. Maybe that's what we need? To forget (and forgive) and move on but doing things right.

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you: do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

Sorry to go on... :D
 
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well my vote goes to Micky Mouse. (surely he would be an improvement on what we have ?)
...with the Seven Dwarves making up the cabinet and Pluto as chief political advisor? I see the beginnings of a good plan here. :naughty:
 
I don’t know anything about him but I would be happy to see it removed and put in a museum or wherever, it is just that I disagree with the counter-productive methods.

There have been attempts to get the statue removed by the 'correct' manner for a few years but had thus far failed, (until yesterday anyway). there was also a petition to get a plaque put on the pedastil stating exactly what Colston was involved in and also stating that he was in fact a Conservative MP, but that was quashed....by a Conservative councillor. He was responsible for taking and selling upwards of 100,000 men,women and children from African countries and selling them on in Carribean and southern American states to work on farms and houses there as slaves, it is thought that around 20% of those people who were hoarded onto ships never made their final destinations. I did watch BBC news this morning, one of those interviewed has said that the statue will be raised and put into a museum. The graffitti sprayed on Churchill's statue at parliament may not have been the brightest thing to do but what was written is truthful, he was a racist. The burning of flags at the centotaph is just plain ignorance.
 
There have been attempts to get the statue removed by the 'correct' manner for a few years but had thus far failed, (until yesterday anyway). there was also a petition to get a plaque put on the pedastil stating exactly what Colston was involved in and also stating that he was in fact a Conservative MP, but that was quashed....by a Conservative councillor. He was responsible for taking and selling upwards of 100,000 men,women and children from African countries and selling them on in Carribean and southern American states to work on farms and houses there as slaves, it is thought that around 20% of those people who were hoarded onto ships never made their final destinations. I did watch BBC news this morning, one of those interviewed has said that the statue will be raised and put into a museum. The graffitti sprayed on Churchill's statue at parliament may not have been the brightest thing to do but what was written is truthful, he was a racist. The burning of flags at the centotaph is just plain ignorance.

Colston also had the practice of throwing sick slaves, or slaves deemed to be "of no commercial value" overboard as well. So it's not just that they died while being transported, some were actively murdered.

Some of Churchill's policies were directly linked to the Bengal Famine which killed 3 million people. His achievements don't change that fact, and we should be taught more about this stuff growing up.
 
But that is it - it is history. Until the 1800s, slavery was an accepted practice and although not acceptable in todays times, was perfectly acceptable to the people of the time, until people like Wilberforce started to change things. There are many things that happened 200/300/400 years ago that are beyond belief with todays head on, but they happened and many countries in the world have been guilty of.

Can we change history - no, can we learn from it - yes.

What next, removing the statues of any British PMs pre-1833 as they had ruled a country which endorsed and accepted slavery? This would also include the Duke of Wellington who would have been found guilty in todays courts of many crimes against his men, so maybe he should be struck off too? Maybe all the building he built should be torn down as they were paid for by the lives of slaves? As Richard said, the manner in which this was done was basically mob rule.

I think you're confusing legal, with acceptable. A great many at the time, didn't find the practice of slavery acceptable. Not least the slaves themselves.

It might have been legal, but it was certainly never moral, acceptable, or right. By any standards of any time.

Did Colston have any achievements of note outside slavery? Or is it just that he donated some of his money to good causes? What did he do worth of celebration?

Leaving a statue up celebrating a slave trader, is the exact opposite of learning from history IMO. Buildings paid for by his money, serve a purpose. A statue just celebrates. And let's face it, he never thought when donating his money it was ever going to go toward helping anyone that wasn't white.
 
Herd immunity not working so well in Sweden.
I remember something about this when it was first suggested (Herd immunity) way back, in the early days.
Some scientist who's name escapes me said something like it aint f*****g measles, herd immunity will most certainly not work as a solution, and may well become part of the problem ...


As a thought has the government totally ignored that piece of advice, ( or maybe it was an "educated guess" ?) hence the easing of restrictions?
 
I remember something about this when it was first suggested (Herd immunity) way back, in the early days.
Some scientist who's name escapes me said something like it aint f*****g measles, herd immunity will most certainly not work as a solution, and may well become part of the problem ...


As a thought has the government totally ignored that piece of advice, ( or maybe it was an "educated guess" ?) hence the easing of restrictions?


A good distraction from DC? :rolleyes:
 
I do wish we could move on and it's interesting that sometimes the most vocal and strident on this are privileged metropolitan entitled white people. I don't know what that tells us, it's just interesting. Rather than constantly beating ourselves up I do wish we could from this second maybe just do everything we can in life today to "Be excellent to each other" and do our best to ensure that the creed and the colour and the name wont matter.
So says the middle aged, middle class white man.

All you Black people should stop complaining about how racism, either direct or indirect, is reducing your life opportunities and quality of life and get on with it.
 
There will always be reasons white people tell black people now isn't the right time to protest.

Pretty sure the black community know their most at risk, and that's likely do to societal issues rather than genetic. Which is due to ingrained racism in our society.

But that's for another thread.

Exactly.

My post had nothing to do with racism in any form ... just about the lack of social distancing and putting people at risk.
 
I wouldn't equate protesting for human rights to going for a jolly at the beach.

I can't pretend to understand the suffering that POC have gone through over the years, so I can't condemn their actions. White folk telling black folk what they should and should not be doing is the entire issue.

I wouldn't equate it either, but i'm pretty sure the virus doesn't pick beach goers over protestors.
 
Interested in your thoughts here;

The UK has approximately 0.87% of the Worlds population.
With 40,000 deaths (very conservative figure) and an estimated 400,000 World deaths my shaky arithmetic suggests we have 10% of the total World deaths.

Exactly the point I made last week but apparently it is the right time to relax the controls. We also have, ignoring San Marino, Andorra and Belgium, the highest death rate.

Dave
 
This concerns me "I can't pretend to understand the suffering that POC have gone through over the years, so I can't condemn their actions. White folk telling black folk what they should and should not be doing is the entire issue."

People shouldn't get a free pass to do whatever they want forever. There surely must be a time we move on and acts that have to be condemned no matter who carries them out.
 
There have been attempts to get the statue removed by the 'correct' manner for a few years but had thus far failed, (until yesterday anyway). there was also a petition to get a plaque put on the pedastil stating exactly what Colston was involved in and also stating that he was in fact a Conservative MP, but that was quashed....by a Conservative councillor. He was responsible for taking and selling upwards of 100,000 men,women and children from African countries and selling them on in Carribean and southern American states to work on farms and houses there as slaves, it is thought that around 20% of those people who were hoarded onto ships never made their final destinations. I did watch BBC news this morning, one of those interviewed has said that the statue will be raised and put into a museum. The graffitti sprayed on Churchill's statue at parliament may not have been the brightest thing to do but what was written is truthful, he was a racist. The burning of flags at the centotaph is just plain ignorance.
I don’t think Colston could have been a Conservative MP/Councillor as the Party wasn’t around then but you can see the problem there, someone “trying to be clever“ and point scoring :(.

I am very aware of all the ills of the slave trade but harking back politically, as opposed to learning about it, does no good. None of those people are alive today on either side and it stops us moving forward. Remember how no African leader would do anything against Robert Mugabe basically because of colonial solidarity despite his monstrous and racist persecution of the Ndebele people on his becoming President :(.

BTW I should like to see the name of Nelson* Mandela expunged from all those streets etc—- he was a good man but a terrible president:(

* Nelson! :) .
 
Interested in your thoughts here;

The UK has approximately 0.87% of the Worlds population.
With 40,000 deaths (very conservative figure) and an estimated 400,000 World deaths my shaky arithmetic suggests we have 10% of the total World deaths.

OK, bearing the above in mind, who would you have chosen to lead us through this pandemic.

A. Boris Johnson.
B. David Icke.
C. Paul Gascoigne.
D Micky Mouse.
E. Robert Mugabe.
F. Jeremy Clarkson.

Many more names came to mind, if you want to 'throw someone into the ring' Go for it :exit:

My thoughts ? well my vote goes to Micky Mouse. (surely he would be an improvement on what we have ?)

I would go for Donald Duck.

Oh, I can't, the USA have already got him.
 
I don’t think Colston could have been a Conservative MP/Councillor as the Party wasn’t around then but you can see the problem there, someone “trying to be clever“ and point scoring :(.

I am very aware of all the ills of the slave trade but harking back politically, as opposed to learning about it, does no good. None of those people are alive today on either side and it stops us moving forward. Remember how no African leader would do anything against Robert Mugabe basically because of colonial solidarity despite his monstrous and racist persecution of the Ndebele people on his becoming President :(.

BTW I should like to see the name of Nelson* Mandela expunged from all those streets etc—- he was a good man but a terrible president:(

* Nelson! :) .

Apparently he (Colston) was indeed a Conservative MP, Google is our friend ;).
 
I am very aware of all the ills of the slave trade but harking back politically, as opposed to learning about it, does no good.
My fear is that many people on both sides of this are stuck in the past and it's a past that they don't understand. There are heroes and villains on both sides and it's all about getting some balance into an enormously complicated situation.

Just as one example there's the case of John Lindsay, his daughter Dido and her great uncle William Murray. At a time when a child born to a slave was, by definition, illegitimate and beyond the pale, both men defied the conventions of the time to do everything practical to bring the girl up as if she was an ordinary English girl of the upper classes. The deeper you go into the history, the more complicated the story gets and the less the stereotypes fit.
 
Apparently he (Colston) was indeed a Conservative MP, Google is our friend ;).
Google seems to agree with me, he was a Tory, the Conservative Party dates from 1830 ;).
 
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