The virus. PPE. Part 1

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AndrewFlannigan said:
The purpose of the unions is to protect the interests of their members (and incidently, those of other employees). They are asking a simple question: should we allow people to suffer when there is sufficient wealth and adequate resources to go around?
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More like Unite are concerned they will miss the £33750 each week in union dues.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I think that there's a real gap here between the intentions of the unions and those of the others you mention. The purpose of the unions is to protect the interests of their members (and incidently, those of other employees). They are asking a simple question: should we allow people to suffer when there is sufficient wealth and adequate resources to go around?

The current government has already given its answer in the form of its actions and its inaction. Whether or not Marie Antoinette really said "let them eat cake", that is the answer which the cabinet gave with the "herd immunity" policy. Yes: it changed that policy but by then it was too late and a government allegedly committed to the protection of the national economy had effectively ruined it.
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I dont really know what you are asking - keep businesses going rather than scale back? Who pays for that and how - the government is already racking up loads of debt, and there will be lots more industries affected by travel disruption, as well as support businesses like engineering companies etc...

The economy would have been screwed whatever we did, although the extent would vary - but RR isnt down to the government, its other countries having travel bans/quarantines etc... Even if we had done everything perfectly and only 1k had dies, and R was 0.1, but the rest of the world was as it is, RR would still pretty much be in the same boat.
 
Suvv said:
I am old enought to remember Ted Heath part nationalising Rolls Royce. Why don't they diversify? In fact that is probably what they will do once they have sacked lots of staff, in a few years they will be moaning that they cannot get enough skilled workers.
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Easy to say, but into what and how long will that take? They could possibly, but not overnight.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I think that there's a real gap here between the intentions of the unions and those of the others you mention. The purpose of the unions is to protect the interests of their members (and incidently, those of other employees). They are asking a simple question: should we allow people to suffer when there is sufficient wealth and adequate resources to go around?

The current government has already given its answer in the form of its actions and its inaction. Whether or not Marie Antoinette really said "let them eat cake", that is the answer which the cabinet gave with the "herd immunity" policy. Yes: it changed that policy but by then it was too late and a government allegedly committed to the protection of the national economy had effectively ruined it.
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Absolutely agree its not a very precise analogy but my views are coloured by having friends who worked in the print in Fleet Street and in the London Docks where jobs were more or less inherited from fathers to sons (mostly male). It was a bit bonkers, and ultimately unsustainable as events proved, but I thought then “how is this different from, the Duke of Westminster inheriting half of London* from his father?”. The answer is: not a lot! “Real Estate” versus virtual estate?

*Exaggerated, slightly :(.
 
cambsno said:
I dont really know what you are asking - keep businesses going rather than scale back? Who pays for that and how - the government is already racking up loads of debt, and there will be lots more industries affected by travel disruption, as well as support businesses like engineering companies etc...

The economy would have been screwed whatever we did, although the extent would vary - but RR isnt down to the government, its other countries having travel bans/quarantines etc... Even if we had done everything perfectly and only 1k had dies, and R was 0.1, but the rest of the world was as it is, RR would still pretty much be in the same boat.
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And yet we can find £200bn a year for a useless defence system, £120bn (and rising) for a train to get you to Birmingham 20 minutes quicker and big bussiness will somehow avoid circa £70bn a year in taxes, ( right under the noses of HMRC) but no! we won't help the small guy.
 
My father was one of a rare breed, a trade union representative who voted Conservative. He always said management got the unions they deserved..... where he worked (now part of Rolls Royce) he was instrumental in winning the fight to get the same sickness benefits for shop floor workers that were enjoyed by the office & admin staff.

A miner at the start of WWII, he was laid off by his privately owned colliery when France fell & they lost their market. He took himself off to London seeking work & while working in a munitions factory he was sacked just for being an NUM member......

During the big freeze in the early 60s he fought management because he discovered office staff were paid in full even though they were unable to get to work while shop floor workers were docked pay if they were even a few minutes late. He himself struggled 3 miles each way to work on foot through blizzards because the roads were so bad.

He also refused to call a strike when the company computer running payroll broke down & they were unable to pay the workers their correct wages. The company offered employees 'approximate' pay packets in lieu, to be reconciled the following week but some workers demanded strike action. He stood firm & refused to back them.
 
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broc said:
My father was one of a rare breed, a trade union representative who voted Conservative.
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Ah, a class traitor :). It has always seemed to me that most (all?) of my friends were “class traitors” in either direction, that is to say either “working class” Tories or “middle class lefties” :).

He always said management got the unions they deserved
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Too true, your father was right.

where he worked (now part of Rolls Royce) he was instrumental in winning the fight to get the same sickness benefits for shop floor workers that were enjoyed by the office & admin staff.

A miner at the start of WWII, he was laid off by his privately owned colliery when France fell & they lost their market. He took himself off to London seeking work & while working in a munitions factory he was sacked just for being an NUM member......

During the big freeze in the early 60s he fought management because he discovered office staff were paid in full even though they were unable to get to work while shop floor workers were docked pay if they were even a few minutes late. He himself struggled 3 miles each way to work on foot through blizzards because the roads were so bad.

He also refused to call a strike when the company computer running payroll broke down & they were unable to pay the workers their correct wages. The company offered employees 'approximate' pay packets in lieu, to be reconciled the following week but some workers demanded strike action. He stood firm & refused to back them.
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Impressive record!
 
broc said:
He stood firm & refused to back them.
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There were many fair minded union members. There were plenty of fair minded managers. I have seen both types whittled down by selfish stupidity among their own kind. The weakness of good people is that they don't want to descend to the level of bad people until they are left with no other choice.
 
EU report on C19 and care facilities.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/de...erm-care-facilities-surveillance-guidance.pdf

I'm interested in the apparent low death rate in Germany (however they appear to have a higher percentage of C19 deaths in care facilities than the UK, but a lower total, going by that document) and I read on another site that the Germans are not including deaths in the C19 stats if the underlying condition is the primary cause of death whereas in the UK a death is afaik included in the C19 stats if it is presumed to be present even if no test has been carried out to determine C19 presence.

If any of that is even partially the case then it'll skew the stats. I think it'll perhaps be a long time until we can be sure we're comparing stats which can be compared, if ever. Maybe we'll only ever be able to talk generally and go on hunches.
 
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woof woof said:
EU report on C19 and care facilities.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/de...erm-care-facilities-surveillance-guidance.pdf

I'm interested in the apparent low death rate in Germany (however they appear to have a higher percentage of C19 deaths in care facilities than the UK, but a lower total, going by that document) and I read on another site that the Germans are not including deaths in the C19 stats if the underlying condition is the primary cause of death whereas in the UK a death is afaik included in the C19 stats if it is presumed to be present even if no test has been carried out to determine C19 presence.

If any of that is even partially the case then it'll skew the stats. I think it'll perhaps be a long time until we can be sure we're comparing stats which can be compared, if ever. Maybe we'll only ever be able to talk generally and go on hunches.
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But you can still compare the “excess” deaths, which will not be affected by that.
 
sphexx said:
But you can still compare the “excess” deaths, which will not be affected by that.
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Do you know what they are for the various affected countries? Any source documents?
 
woof woof said:
Do you know what they are for the various affected countries? Any source documents?
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Sorry no, but they are available according to earlier reports which said ”all countries publish them”.
 
I don't have time today but I may try and Google my way to excess deaths another day.
 
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I've had a look at those but I'm not happy yet.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Because they don't support your preconceived view? The UK has over 50000 excess deaths vs the 5 year average, which I posted about in the other thread, but for some reason you got all triggered about Brexit about it.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/nearly-50000-excess-deaths-england-18275654
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Thanks for being as biased and judgmental as ever Andy.

Looking at a stark number just isn't enough. I want to know a bit more so I'll keep looking.

And to be clear, you do come across to me as being dangerously close to being hopelessly biased. I have no horse in this race. As a traditional Labour supporter who only turned away when they deserted me and people like me supporting the current crop of Conservatives is never going to be my knee jerk reaction but also I'm not going to automatically take a position against them on every single issue on principle as you seem to do.
 
woof woof said:
Thanks for being as biased and judgmental as ever Andy.

Looking at a stark number just isn't enough. I want to know a bit more so I'll keep looking.

And to be clear, you do come across to me as being dangerously close to being hopelessly biased. I have no horse in this race. As a traditional Labour supporter who only turned away when they deserted me and people like me supporting the current crop of Conservatives is never going to be my knee jerk reaction but also I'm not going to automatically take a position against them on every single issue on principle as you seem to do.
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It does seem as though you're searching for evidence that we're really not as bad as the stats show, and ignoring anything that doesn't fit that view.
 
woof woof said:
EU report on C19 and care facilities.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/de...erm-care-facilities-surveillance-guidance.pdf

I'm interested in the apparent low death rate in Germany (however they appear to have a higher percentage of C19 deaths in care facilities than the UK, but a lower total, going by that document) and I read on another site that the Germans are not including deaths in the C19 stats if the underlying condition is the primary cause of death whereas in the UK a death is afaik included in the C19 stats if it is presumed to be present even if no test has been carried out to determine C19 presence.

If any of that is even partially the case then it'll skew the stats. I think it'll perhaps be a long time until we can be sure we're comparing stats which can be compared, if ever. Maybe we'll only ever be able to talk generally and go on hunches.
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At this point it would be very hard to compare the UK with some of the other worst-affected countries in Europe like Italy, Spain and France, and say which has suffered the most. But I'd be surprised if the 5-fold difference in per capita deaths between the UK and Germany can be explained by reporting methods, and it's absolutely clear that the 100-fold difference between the UK and South Korea can't be.
 
jakeblu said:
The Telegraph has published numerous articles that have been critical of the governments approach to the coronavirus
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The current government seems unable to understand the problem and therefor unable to make suitable plans to deal with it. The opposition appears to be much more credible with their new leader.

The disparity between the two parties does not bode well for the next few years unless the current government's majority is turned against it, which does look more possible with each mistake that comes to light.
 
Good article today with, I think, a correct take on what went wrong with the UK response:

'Did the UK government prepare for the wrong kind of pandemic?'

'The extent to which Boris Johnson’s government stuck to a protocol laid out in its flu pandemic plans is made clear by reviewing the 2011 strategy for responding to a flu pandemic (the most recent published version available). It reads like an extraordinarily precise description of the steps the UK government did (and did not) take in its initial response to Covid-19. Mass gatherings such as football matches and live music events would continue, in part to “help maintain public morale”. There would be no quarantining of international arrivals at airports, though passengers would be encouraged to report any symptoms upon arrival. Face masks would not be recommended for use by the public. There is no mention whatsoever of healthy people being confined to their homes in an attempt to prevent transmission. Perhaps most striking is that the decision to wind down contact tracing on 12 March, widely viewed as an error that has hamstrung the UK’s ability to fight back against the coronavirus, is also alluded to in the government’s flu pandemic strategy. Its first “detection and assessment” phase ( seemingly an analogue for the “contain” phase of the coronavirus response) describes how the focus would shift away from “actively finding” and isolating confirmed and suspected cases, and instead turn to treatment of the disease once there was “evidence of sustained community transmission of the virus”. It even anticipates that detection and assessment could itself be a “relatively short” phase, depending on the circumstances. The flu strategy bluntly concludes: “It will not be possible to halt the spread of a new pandemic influenza virus, and it would be a waste of public health resources and capacity to attempt to do so.”'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...rnment-prepare-for-the-wrong-kind-of-pandemic
 
woof woof said:
Thanks for being as biased and judgmental as ever Andy.

Looking at a stark number just isn't enough. I want to know a bit more so I'll keep looking.

And to be clear, you do come across to me as being dangerously close to being hopelessly biased. I have no horse in this race. As a traditional Labour supporter who only turned away when they deserted me and people like me supporting the current crop of Conservatives is never going to be my knee jerk reaction but also I'm not going to automatically take a position against them on every single issue on principle as you seem to do.
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Really not sure how I can be presenting any bias, or indeed anything political whatsoever in saying that the numbers show there are more than 50,000 excess deaths above the 5 year average.

It's a horrific number, it doesn't really matter if some other countries are just as bad. Not really sure why any more research is needed before admitting that it's a massive number of deaths.
 
Retune said:
Good article today with, I think, a correct take on what went wrong with the UK response:

'Did the UK government prepare for the wrong kind of pandemic?'

'The extent to which Boris Johnson’s government stuck to a protocol laid out in its flu pandemic plans is made clear by reviewing the 2011 strategy for responding to a flu pandemic (the most recent published version available). It reads like an extraordinarily precise description of the steps the UK government did (and did not) take in its initial response to Covid-19. Mass gatherings such as football matches and live music events would continue, in part to “help maintain public morale”. There would be no quarantining of international arrivals at airports, though passengers would be encouraged to report any symptoms upon arrival. Face masks would not be recommended for use by the public. There is no mention whatsoever of healthy people being confined to their homes in an attempt to prevent transmission. Perhaps most striking is that the decision to wind down contact tracing on 12 March, widely viewed as an error that has hamstrung the UK’s ability to fight back against the coronavirus, is also alluded to in the government’s flu pandemic strategy. Its first “detection and assessment” phase ( seemingly an analogue for the “contain” phase of the coronavirus response) describes how the focus would shift away from “actively finding” and isolating confirmed and suspected cases, and instead turn to treatment of the disease once there was “evidence of sustained community transmission of the virus”. It even anticipates that detection and assessment could itself be a “relatively short” phase, depending on the circumstances. The flu strategy bluntly concludes: “It will not be possible to halt the spread of a new pandemic influenza virus, and it would be a waste of public health resources and capacity to attempt to do so.”'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...rnment-prepare-for-the-wrong-kind-of-pandemic
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I think that’s right and to some extent it absolves the govt and blames the scientific advice (hello, all you Grauniad haters :)) though doesn’t explain why they went with a purely “flu” plan when it obviously wasn’t ”flu” :(. The real fault (again) lies with missed opportunities to plan for different kinds of diseases possibly because govt was obsessed occupied with another project which we won’t mention:(.
 
Starmer seems to be operating as a Leader of the Oppostion should in this situation. Yesterday he called out the government at PMQs on the NHS surcharge paid by immigrant healthcare workers. Today the Government have made the right decision, which Starmer supports.
View: https://BANNED/Keir_Starmer/status/1263496241771622400
 
Retune said:
Starmer seems to be operating as a Leader of the Oppostion should in this situation.
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Yes, he is. It's worrying that the members of the cabinet and their supporters fail to understand this.
 
jakeblu said:
‘Stay Alert’ :LOL: :LOL: ‘ good British common sense’ :LOL::LOL:

View: https://BANNED/NWDevonPolice/status/1263078592331857923

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-52742519


Was it ever going to end any differently.
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Ironically my wife told me she will be going to meet a friend outside her house and have a socially distanced drink, along with 2 others. 2 of this group of 4 are nurses, so you would think they would be the ones to not do this!!!
 
cambsno said:
Ironically my wife told me she will be going to meet a friend outside her house and have a socially distanced drink, along with 2 others. 2 of this group of 4 are nurses, so you would think they would be the ones to not do this!!!
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Yes yes, it's the nurses fault, they should be punished, they should know better. So Im assuming your wife is rising above and realises shes wrong to break the rules too and not going?
 
Donnie said:
Yes yes, it's the nurses fault, they should be punished, they should know better. So Im assuming your wife is rising above and realises shes wrong to break the rules too and not going?
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I understand why, but I think you are over-reacting a little :(. Look on the bright side — in Mexico nurses are being attacked because (some) people believe they are draining fluid from coronavirus patients knees (why knees?) and then the fluid is sprayed over towns by planes at night ! :(.

I suppose this is no more bonkers than the people who burn the 5G masts and the latter have less excuse because they have a functioning Heath service etc.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...-19-conspiracy-theories-in-mexicos-motor-town
 
sphexx said:
I suppose this is no more bonkers than the people who burn the 5G masts and the latter have less excuse because they have a functioning Heath service etc.
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As Irving Berlin wrote:

"Away he went to live in a tent over in France with his regiment
Were you there, and tell me, did you notice?
They were all out of step but Jim"​
:naughty:
 
Donnie said:
Yes yes, it's the nurses fault, they should be punished, they should know better. So Im assuming your wife is rising above and realises shes wrong to break the rules too and not going?
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sphexx said:
I understand why, but I think you are over-reacting a little :(.
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It's all part of the new tory plan to essentially blame the scientists and slur the NHS that has come to the fore in the last few days including the government insinuating that hospitals were deliberately sending covid positive patients into care homes etc etc. All planned to culminate in no one caring when all the clapping for keyworkers and NHS "heroes" never transpires into any real meaningful support and we all go back to square one in the next year or two.
 
Donnie said:
It's all part of the new tory plan to essentially blame the scientists and slur the NHS that has come to the fore in the last few days including the government insinuating that hospitals were deliberately sending covid positive patients into care homes etc etc. All planned to culminate in no one caring when all the clapping for keyworkers and NHS "heroes" never transpires into any real meaningful support and we all go back to square one in the next year or two.
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Indeed! I think this “I'm an NHS doctor – and I've had enough of people clapping for me” says it all:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/21/nhs-doctor-enough-people-clapping
 
So Italy may have 19,000 more deaths than reported!!! I guess we may never know the real picture.
 
nilagin said:
Shame he decided to remain anonymous, so people could make it clear that they would no longer be thanking him/her and that he/she could go f*** themself.
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Yeah he can go f*** himself for thinking the health service should be properly funded and should have the right resources.

Hypocrites who voted Tory, then go out clapping like seals every Thursday apparently think their claps magically make PPE appear and Doctors and Nurses are suddenly safe. It's the British equivalent of "thoughts and prayers".
 
nilagin said:
Shame he decided to remain anonymous, so people could make it clear that they would no longer be thanking him/her and that he/she could go f*** themself.
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Since we know that many (most/all?) nhs staff have been told not to comment to media, what do you suggest? And what would you propose to do if you did know his/her name to make it clear they would no longer be thanking him/her?
 
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