The virus. PPE. Part 1

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mikew said:
French schools have been back for a week and 70 new cases in children,don't worry though Gove said its safe
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70 out of how many kids though??? Unless we live in lockdown for 18 months +, we will have to be exposed to the virus
 
cambsno said:
70 out of how many kids though??? Unless we live in lockdown for 18 months +, we will have to be exposed to the virus
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Why? That won't be the case in countries that have a lid on the local epidemic without a lockdown, like South Korea That level of control, with proper testing, tracing and isolation, is what we should aspire to.
 
Retune said:
That level of control, with proper testing, tracing and isolation, is what we should aspire to.
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Which is true; but... out of the long grass will come claims that "such actions are against the ancient rights of freeborn Englishmen"!

:tumbleweed:
 
Fuji Dave said:
I was thinking out loud, but I think once they are back the gov lot will say no summer holidays.
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What about their ancient rights? :)
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Indeed. Just how would you know what is around the corner in 2 years time and how that might react. I fear we have no chance of knowing. There lies the problem.
Original SARS-1 vaccine and universal flu vaccines went down to the drain because of this.
Also adjuvants is not something I'd like to receive any more. They should instead formulate without them whenever possible. See I don't claim it doesn't work, but rather point out secondary fall out.
Personally my risk from COVID-19 is ultra low and chances are I already a had a super light form 2 months ago. At this point it is far safer to refuse any intervention.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-08-vaccination-flu-worse-exposed-strain.html
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042682216000180
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Lots of people would like to think their mild illness was COVID-19, but I think many will be disappointed. Three friends have had antibody tests, all negative. If you're worried about immune enhancement of some hypothetical future virus, why aren't you worried about this from an actual SARS-CoV-2 infection? The main example of antibody dependent enhancement in humans is Dengue, where natural infection by one strain makes you more vulnerable to another. And adjuvants have been used safely in any number of vaccines, where they play an important role in establishing robust immunity.

LongLensPhotography said:
OK, I said it was quite minor, but it is happening and the clock is ticking. The virus has barely travelled the world once. Give it another or two roundtrips. It is RNA virus after all.

So best case scenario is around 25 mutation combinations in a larger genome, which I know can substantially alter bio-chemistry. In key parts single amino acid can massively enhance or knock out enzyme activity, same with binding specificities, etc. You really don't know if they all will be COVID-19-like or a true novel COVID-20/21. This guesswork is a COVID rulette. Finally, you can't rule out COVID-mod-2X bio-terrorism event as warned by modern day prophet Gates. Everybody knows the sequences and has samples; it can come out of any P3 or P4 lab. << These have no right to exist just as nuclear weapons.
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Viruses mutate all the time, especially RNA viruses, though this one less than some (since it has error correction in its replication), and its unsegmented genome doesn't give it flu's ability to generate an instant 'reassortant' strain when two viruses meet in the same cell (though there can still be recombination). As with other viruses, most mutations are either neutral or deleterious and soon eliminated. Mutations that confer a selective advantage are rare, and this one is already doing very well indeed in its current form. You can never know what might happen in the future, but the smart money is on the genome being stable enough for a vaccine that will be good for a period of years, if it works at all. It's perhaps more of a concern whether immunity (natural or otherwise) will be durable - some other coronaviruses can re-infect the same person a year later without any antigenic drift, though there's enough of an immune response to limit disease. As for mad scientists in labs, I would worry a lot more about the biggest bioterrorist of all, Nature. There are plenty more natural viruses where this one came from. MERS is deadlier than SARS-CoV-2, but luckily doesn't transmit nearly as easily. Perhaps something from that branch of the coronavirus family will be the next one to make it big.
 
Fuji Dave said:
They have to learn, so maybe just carry on through as who will want to fly here there and everywhere having to wear masks.
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You seem to equate school holidays with “abroad” but it ain’t necessarily so :).

BTW There is much talk about HMG instituting a 2-week isolation period on coming back but no one seems to think that these foreign countries may have a similar quarantine for arrivals and while they may welcome Germans, S Koreans etc, will they want folk from a hotspot like the U.K.? :(.
 
sphexx said:
You seem to equate school holidays with “abroad” but it ain’t necessarily so :).

BTW There is much talk about HMG instituting a 2-week isolation period on coming back but no one seems to think that these foreign countries may have a similar quarantine for arrivals and while they may welcome Germans, S Koreans etc, will they want folk from a hotspot like the U.K.? :(.
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I`ve been lucky in my life and as a child having holidays in many countries, one of my all time favourites was here the the UK can`t beat the Lake District imo.
 
Fuji Dave said:
I`ve been lucky in my life and as a child having holidays in many countries, one of my all time favourites was here the the UK can`t beat the Lake District imo.
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Possibly why Cumbria has such a relatively high incidence of COVID-19 :(. Not that I blame you personally for it :), more it’s general popularity.
 
Retune said:
Lots of people would like to think their mild illness was COVID-19, but I think many will be disappointed.
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It is possible. When the antibody test becomes readily available it will be interesting to put it to the test. I'm genuinely intrigued.

Retune said:
If you're worried about immune enhancement of some hypothetical future virus, why aren't you worried about this from an actual SARS-CoV-2 infection?
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OK, let's say I am slightly worried. Most natural candidate would be SARS-1 or MERS which I certainly didn't have, nor any recent flu, nor flu vaccines for the last 9 or so years. The common cold... yeah that's in the running.
The if we look at the statistics, I'm in the relatively safe age group (under 40), zero underlying health conditions, and I pay a lot of attentions to getting good nutrition and all key vitamins (C,D3, B6,Zn, etc). The risk on average is very low whichever graph you look at.
Finally my exposure is quite low as I never go anywhere near public transport or larger gatherings, and even do my shopping after 9PM when shops are nearly empty (always was, it is just a fun feeling to be the last through the door). I am fully aware that the challenge level can make or break your chances despite age, and I'm OK here. Equally the risk of me spreading the disease to larger numbers of people is mitigated by the same factor. You certainly don't need even 90% uptake to form herd immunity.

If I have to estimate my risk factors from the current virus vs vaccine I fear it is impossible to tell what and if anything is going to really happen compared to what might happen, and in such case it is almost always best to follow the least intervention pathway, i.e. do nothing.

Retune said:
And adjuvants have been used safely in any number of vaccines, where they play an important role in establishing robust immunity.
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It would largely depend on how "safely" is defined here, but on the whole I would beg to differ. Mercury and aluminium salts and food-related proteins have no business whatsoever in the blood let alone getting past the blood-brain barrier. When you get into franken ingredients like MRC-5 aborted baby cells it becomes a whole Pandora box of issues. A cleaner way has to be found.
 
sphexx said:
“Agency staff were spreading Covid-19 between care homes, PHE found in April”

Obviously a bit undesirable to be using staff who move around during an epidemic :(

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ovid-19-between-care-homes-phe-found-in-april
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It is indeed.

Here we complete the full cycle that discredited the Most Devastating Software Mistake of All Time by the discredited science advisor Neil Ferguson.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopoliti...-may-be-most-devastating-software-mistake-all
Everything from murdering the economy to slaughtering the elderly was done the wrong way round. Just impressive. You would be much better off if I was in charge.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
It is possible. When the antibody test becomes readily available it will be interesting to put it to the test. I'm genuinely intrigued.



OK, let's say I am slightly worried. Most natural candidate would be SARS-1 or MERS which I certainly didn't have, nor any recent flu, nor flu vaccines for the last 9 or so years. The common cold... yeah that's in the running.
The if we look at the statistics, I'm in the relatively safe age group (under 40), zero underlying health conditions, and I pay a lot of attentions to getting good nutrition and all key vitamins (C,D3, B6,Zn, etc). The risk on average is very low whichever graph you look at.
Finally my exposure is quite low as I never go anywhere near public transport or larger gatherings, and even do my shopping after 9PM when shops are nearly empty (always was, it is just a fun feeling to be the last through the door). I am fully aware that the challenge level can make or break your chances despite age, and I'm OK here. Equally the risk of me spreading the disease to larger numbers of people is mitigated by the same factor. You certainly don't need even 90% uptake to form herd immunity.

If I have to estimate my risk factors from the current virus vs vaccine I fear it is impossible to tell what and if anything is going to really happen compared to what might happen, and in such case it is almost always best to follow the least intervention pathway, i.e. do nothing.



It would largely depend on how "safely" is defined here, but on the whole I would beg to differ. Mercury and aluminium salts and food-related proteins have no business whatsoever in the blood let alone getting past the blood-brain barrier. When you get into franken ingredients like MRC-5 aborted baby cells it becomes a whole Pandora box of issues. A cleaner way has to be found.
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You know that vaccines do not contain any human cells, and there are numerous studies which show that the low levels of thimerosal in vaccines is safe.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
It is indeed.

Here we complete the full cycle that discredited the Most Devastating Software Mistake of All Time by the discredited science advisor Neil Ferguson.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopoliti...-may-be-most-devastating-software-mistake-all
Everything from murdering the economy to slaughtering the elderly was done the wrong way round. Just impressive. You would be much better off if I was in charge.
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You've linked to Nextstrain before. Have a look at this thread from Nextstrain senior author Trevor Bedford:

View: https://BANNED/trvrb/status/1258879531022082049
 
LongLensPhotography said:
You certainly don't need even 90% uptake to form herd immunity.

If I have to estimate my risk factors from the current virus vs vaccine I fear it is impossible to tell what and if anything is going to really happen compared to what might happen, and in such case it is almost always best to follow the least intervention pathway, i.e. do nothing.
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Do you mean you've happy for everyone else to have the vaccine and take on any risks you imagine, knowing that their herd immunity will probably protect you?

LongLensPhotography said:
It would largely depend on how "safely" is defined here, but on the whole I would beg to differ. Mercury and aluminium salts and food-related proteins have no business whatsoever in the blood let alone getting past the blood-brain barrier. When you get into franken ingredients like MRC-5 aborted baby cells it becomes a whole Pandora box of issues. A cleaner way has to be found.
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Does a sporadically lethal bat virus with a whole arsenal of foreign proteins exquisitely adapted to subvert your defences and turn your cells into zombie pathogen factories have any business in your lungs? On the one hand we have a vast medical literature demonstrating the impressive safety record of vaccines and their role in controlling or even eliminating a wide range of horrible diseases that have (rather literally) plagued humanity for centuries. On the other hand, we have some guys on YouTube who think Bill Gates wants to contaminate their fluids.
 
Apparently quarantine for incoming travellers has been in place since the 30th Feb...
 
Sums up how out of touch the government are :

Work and Pensions Secretary Therese Coffey says further rises in joblessness are likely.

"We should be prepared for the unemployment rate to increase significantly," she told BBC Radio 4's Today programme. But she denied that there was a "complete collapse in vacancies" as the Institute for Fiscal Studies has warned, saying there were "substantial vacancies" in sectors such as retail and agriculture. She also rejected claims that young people, who are particularly at risk of losing their jobs, would experience long-term "scarring" to their economic prospects.

How can there be substantial vacancies in retail when shops in the main are shut, and leisure is completely shut???? And how patronising to suggest that the young won't suffer long term pain - of course they will, the sort of jobs they do are going to take ages to come back, and there will be a lot more competition.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
The carehome where my wife's grandad is had one confirmed case of it. So they tested everyone and sent them off.

A week later they were told the tests had all been lost...

Wonder if they were counted in the total tests done.
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Turns out they got lost on their way to the USA to be ran...
 
My mum in law has Parkinsons, has been shielding, but was having trouble breathing so went to A&E.

Because she had respiraty issues that ticked the COVID box so they put her in the COVID waiting room, where she had to sit for 4 hours. FFS.
 
cambsno said:
Sums up how out of touch the government are :

Work and Pensions Secretary Therese Coffey says further rises in joblessness are likely.

"We should be prepared for the unemployment rate to increase significantly," she told BBC Radio 4's Today programme. But she denied that there was a "complete collapse in vacancies" as the Institute for Fiscal Studies has warned, saying there were "substantial vacancies" in sectors such as retail and agriculture. She also rejected claims that young people, who are particularly at risk of losing their jobs, would experience long-term "scarring" to their economic prospects.

How can there be substantial vacancies in retail when shops in the main are shut, and leisure is completely shut???? And how patronising to suggest that the young won't suffer long term pain - of course they will, the sort of jobs they do are going to take ages to come back, and there will be a lot more competition.
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Possibly it’s a time lag on the vacancies — ones that were advertised before lockdown not having been filled but still “on the books”?
 
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KitsuneAndy said:
My mum in law has Parkinsons, has been shielding, but was having trouble breathing so went to A&E.

Because she had respiraty issues that ticked the COVID box so they put her in the COVID waiting room, where she had to sit for 4 hours. FFS.
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SO what you are saying is that she could not have it, bit could do now after sitting with poeple who did???

Crazy - and something you would/should not expect from a hospital. I guess that if 50 people turn up they cant give everyone a room to wait in but there must be better ways of doing it than that!
 
cambsno said:
SO what you are saying is that she could not have it, bit could do now after sitting with poeple who did???

Crazy - and something you would/should not expect from a hospital. I guess that if 50 people turn up they cant give everyone a room to wait in but there must be better ways of doing it than that!
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She's been being ridiculously careful, all out the bloody window now though isn't it!
 
KitsuneAndy said:
The carehome where my wife's grandad is had one confirmed case of it. So they tested everyone and sent them off.

A week later they were told the tests had all been lost...

Wonder if they were counted in the total tests done.
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I was just having a look through the last couple of pages and saw your post from yesterday re the lost tests..in the post..

Yes, they do include them in their numbers. A coincidence but that very issue was addressed on either Radio4 News or Five Live earlier. today The question was put to the correspondent who said that it was the case that lost tests were included. Well, why wouldn't they say that because they counted test kits that they sent out with no reference to those that were returned. I'm sure the term used was 'x number of tests have been carried out. Carried out ? In my book 'carried out' mean completed..done ?

Here's another example. A man called Radio Five Live this morning to ask the expert about his test kit. He and his wife received a test kit. Within three days his wife had a result but 14 days later after several calls he still didn't have his result and the conclusion was it had been either lost but the expert (a scientist ,I think) said that also possible was that as it had taken so long before the test was carried out due to high volume at the lab(s) it would have gone past it's test date for an accurate result and hence binned. I assume the lab doing the tests wouldn't be responsible for getting another one to him. In both cases it would be included as 'tests' with the inference that they had been carried out.

This is an exchange last Thursday on BBC Question Time with Fiona Bruce, the host and Stephen Barclay (Sec of Sate for Leaving the EU).

Barclay: (he brought this up himself whilst answering another question).."Testing. Today we've seen the highest ever level of testing, we've seen a massive ramping up of testing, 120,000 tests today "

Fiona Bruce "127,000 ? How many people were actually tested ? "

Barclay. "That's how many were tested today..127,000 That's the results of 127,000"..(He clearly gave the impression that 27,000 people had been tested

Bruce.. "No..I think you'll find it's 76,000 people were actually tested.127,000 tests were carried out but 76,000 people were tested.. she looked at numbers on her sheet...71,600 people were actually tested"

Barclay. "Tested, that's right"

Bruce " So not 127,00 people were tested ?"

Barclay..The number of tests..127,000 tests were carried out"....and he's looking very uncomfortable and really mumbled that.

Bruce It's important because it's about people here, it's not just about tests itself but 71,600 people were tested "

Barclay. "Mmmm (and gave a nod) ..ie..in agreement.

Unfortunately, Fiona Bruce didn't push him on this by asking why wasn't it made clear because the impression is that 127,000 people were tested when infact it was 76,100.The conversation went on.

Maybe someone could tell me what a 'test' actually means if out of the 127,000 'tests' (ostensibly on people) claimed by Stephen Barclay only 71,600 were on people.

It does make me angry. We all make mistakes, companies make mistakes governments/ Ministers/PMs & Presidents make mistakes but as ever..it's not the deed or the mistake that gets them into bother but the cover up. In the case of the government it's obfuscation couple with being economical with the truth. I read an article a few days ago in the which author said that the government was verging on telling lies.

For goodness sake why not just say for example..we've sent 70,000 test kits to people who suspect they have symptons on such and such a date or over a couple days and to date X number have been returned and of those X number were positive or negative The result of that is that people know the government are being straight and will see the rationale in measures they want us to take. Are hospital tests included ? They should have separate numbers .

In addition we have confusing messages re who can visit who (or whom if you're a pedant) who can work and who can't and now it's getting children back to school and no testing. This is equivalent to when the government told nursing homes to take patients from hospital without tests. I heard the owner of two Nursing Homes say that an elderly resident (93) went into hospital for a non-Covid-19 related issue and was tested on admission (negative) but was refused a test when discharged The Home owner had asked for one. Two days later the elderly resident had Covid-19 symptons and 12 days later died and starteda cluster of 12 positive Covid deaths over an 8 week period.

It's come to the point that when I listen to the daily briefings I'm reading..listening, between the lines. Another annoying aspect is not answering a question. Here's good example. I can't recall who it was put to but it was a question from a member of the public last week who asked about the opening of schools (I think it's for Reception and some other category further on in the system) and would parents, who don't want to risk sending their children to school, be fined. The answer given was a rigmarole about how safe it would be for children to go back to school and the question re fines wasn't even considered .The host should have asked the Minister to answer the man's additional question re fines. When I hear people asking an important question and they add a couple more all that does is to give MP's (it's that scenario I'm thinking of) the opportunity to spend all his/her time on the question(s) their happy to answer and avoid the one they don't want to answer. If it's important enough better to ask just that one question.
 
sphexx said:
“Agency staff were spreading Covid-19 between care homes, PHE found in April”

Obviously a bit undesirable to be using staff who move around during an epidemic :(
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It is undesirable but it was something that the government were aware of and just another recommendation they chose to ignore, see story below. I love quoting from the Guardian in brings the best responses.

www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/the-uk-government-was-ready-for-this-pandemic-until-it-sabotaged-its-own-system/ar-BB14jmoV?ocid=msedgdhp
 
I
tarric said:
It is undesirable but it was something that the government were aware of and just another recommendation they chose to ignore, see story below. I love quoting from the Guardian in brings the best responses.

www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/the-uk-government-was-ready-for-this-pandemic-until-it-sabotaged-its-own-system/ar-BB14jmoV?ocid=msedgdhp
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I don’t always agree with Monbiot but he’s right there. I can’t say I’m surprised by HMG‘s incompetence because (sorry to bring it up :)) it’s the same “it’ll all be OK” attitude that most of them took to Brexit, no serious attention to detail:(.
 
tarric said:
It is undesirable but it was something that the government were aware of and just another recommendation they chose to ignore, see story below. I love quoting from the Guardian in brings the best responses.

www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/the-uk-government-was-ready-for-this-pandemic-until-it-sabotaged-its-own-system/ar-BB14jmoV?ocid=msedgdhp
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What a depressing read.

I don't think it's off topic to add this read to it. It's the 'who's responsible for it.'

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/da...ing-club-behind-130m-donations-to-the-tories/
 
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Rolls Royce to cut up to a fifth of its workforce - no surprise I guess, and we will see other companies follow suit. Cant believe the unions attitude though, criticising it - anyone with half a brain knows the airline industry is shafted and will be for some time to come. What do they expect, indefinate fulough or RR to keep people on for the sake of it.
 
cambsno said:
Cant believe the unions attitude though, criticising it - anyone with half a brain knows the airline industry is shafted and will be for some time to come. What do they expect, indefinate fulough or RR to keep people on for the sake of it.
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Not defending the unions, they are probably wrong here, but their attititude is only much the same of that of the rich high net worth individuals and big companies, banks etc.
 
sphexx said:
but their attititude is only much the same of that of the rich high net worth individuals and big companies, banks etc.
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I think that there's a real gap here between the intentions of the unions and those of the others you mention. The purpose of the unions is to protect the interests of their members (and incidently, those of other employees). They are asking a simple question: should we allow people to suffer when there is sufficient wealth and adequate resources to go around?

The current government has already given its answer in the form of its actions and its inaction. Whether or not Marie Antoinette really said "let them eat cake", that is the answer which the cabinet gave with the "herd immunity" policy. Yes: it changed that policy but by then it was too late and a government allegedly committed to the protection of the national economy had effectively ruined it.
 
I am old enought to remember Ted Heath part nationalising Rolls Royce. Why don't they diversify? In fact that is probably what they will do once they have sacked lots of staff, in a few years they will be moaning that they cannot get enough skilled workers.
 
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