The virus. PPE. Part 1

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AndrewFlannigan said:
All the conspiracy theorists achieve, so far as I can tell, is to spread disinformation. This seems to be a formal of mental illness virus which can harm others. Perhaps we should isolate the carriers to prevent harm to the wider community?
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I think I already suggested a vaccine against FOXNEWS at #7300 :) :

“:) If only ...
“i.e. the same thing we did with MERS, SARS1, H1N1, FOXNEWS:
Contain the sickness, isolate it, let it die, and watch out for any signs of the disease coming back to contain it.”

(Bad form to quote oneself, but it wasn’t mine originally :))
 
joxby said:
Why would I, its a perfectly legit scenario.
Do I think its more likely than a lab leak....no tbh.
Unfortunately the information available dictates neither is proved and that's exactly how the CCP wants to keep it.
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I think the science is pretty clear on this. Even the arch-conspiracy theorist himself, Trump, has not shown evidence to the contrary.
 
jakeblu said:
I think the science is pretty clear on this. Even the arch-conspiracy theorist himself, Trump, has not shown evidence to the contrary.
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There's a question mark though as the Chinese are so secretive and despite the comparisons to anything in the UK can people really imagine any UK government acting like the Chinese have over c19? I'm talking about the secrecy, cover ups, threats, gags and refusal to allow investigations not about lockdown procedures or how efficiently they've built hospitals.

I see the evil Trump has been mentioned yet again (oh look the Chinese/Russians have done something questionable, lets bring up Trump and have a pop at him) and although this never surprises me I'd include the USA is the following too, if either the UK or the USA acted has China has done the meeja and all the Trump and poodle UK haters would have a melt down but when China walks all over human rights and puts a (figurative or even real) gun to the head of anyone not towing the party line what do we get.... "Ah well...Trump.... UK secrets..."

Can't the excusers take a day off and just admit that the Chinese regime is one of the most dangerous and secretive on the planet and just about anything is possible of them without bringing Trump, the US or the UK into it?

Personally, I wouldn't be too surprised if C19 walked out of a Chinese lab, who knows? They'll never let an international team in to see what if anything can be determined and if that's what happened it'll probably never be proved as anyone even looking like stepping forward with proof would be disappeared PDQ no matter where in the world they were. Wet markets may well be a more likely cause and whilst these disgraceful (from a western perspective) places exist animal welfare and human health issues will exist. If only the world could do without Chinese manufactured goods and money for a few years we could put some pressure on China for these hateful places to be closed down and for the awful abuses of human rights, murders and crimes against humanity to stop even if no one will ever be brought to justice over them.
 
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The MSM in the US already support China/CCP because they want to attack Trump....:facepalm:
There are blatantly obvious parallels to be drawn between us.
Lucky for Trump, the 5h1t is going to hit the fan over there.....:ROFLMAO:
 
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The thing about the 'virus escaped from a lab' theory is that I haven't seen a single serious virologist in the west or anywhere else say it's a likely explanation. The only people pushing it are conspiracy theorists, certain politicians with an interest in deflecting attention from their own failures in handling the pandemic, and their more ardent supporters. But it's silly to claim that not swallowing this conspiracy theory is some sort of endorsement of the Chinese regime, its serious abuses of human rights, its own disinformation campaign, or its early attempts to suppress criticism instead of the virus. And it's perfectly possible to be very fond of America while despising Trump.
 
woof woof said:
There's a question mark though as the Chinese are so secretive and despite the comparisons to anything in the UK can people really imagine any UK government acting like the Chinese have over c19? I'm talking about the secrecy, cover ups, threats, gags and refusal to allow investigations not about lockdown procedures or how efficiently they've built hospitals.
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We do the same sort of thing but it’s more subtle, HMG has had many more years experience at it and they can’t get away with straight denials etc like the CCP can. You only have to think of recents ones like the Grenfell cover up and the already mentioned non-publication of the Russian interference, the Cygnus exercise, and now the redacting of the SAGE Minutes.

This is not to excuse the CCP, I think they should be confronted, like I’ve their exclusion of Taiwan from WHO, but can you not see that these attacks on “China” are a classic distraction? in a sense it doesn’t really matter immediately to us how the virus got going but HMG’s actions are our concern.
I see the evil Trump has been mentioned yet again (oh look the Chinese/Russians have done something questionable, lets bring up Trump and have a pop at him) .
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But US is supposed to be our ally and that’s why we have to be more critical of them:(.
 
Retune said:
But it's silly to claim that not swallowing this conspiracy theory is some sort of endorsement of the Chinese regime, its serious abuses of human rights, its own disinformation campaign, or its early attempts to suppress criticism instead of the virus.
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I know that it's fashionable to disparage the CCP and by our standards they do get some things badly wrong.

However, compared with their predecessors they have done a great deal of good for their population. They have taken a country riven by civil and international wars and changed it beyond the wildest dreams of their grandparents. In the meantime, American and British politicians have taken wealthy countries and forced millions into poverty.

As has been suggested elsewhere it is best to remove the plank of wood from your eye before attempting to remove the tiny speck from another's (a rare example of religion providing practical and useful advice).
 
woof woof said:
Footballists.... sex workers... Snooze.

Like many celebrities some footballists are imo best ignored or even better pointed at while laughing.
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Agree with that - BUT while we ignore that they think they are above obeying lockdown [ i.e. it's only their clubs that give any sort of punishment ] other eejits who regard them as role models also ignore the restrictions and have booze-ins , parties barbecues etc etc

These celebrities/ influencers /YouTubers need to just buckle down like us and put up with the restrictions
 
joxby said:
The MSM in the US already support China/CCP because they want to attack Trump....:facepalm:
There are blatantly obvious parallels to be drawn between us.
Lucky for Trump, the 5h1t is going to hit the fan over there.....:ROFLMAO:
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Im sure your alt-news sources are much more reliable.
 
woof woof said:
There's a question mark though as the Chinese are so secretive and despite the comparisons to anything in the UK can people really imagine any UK government acting like the Chinese have over c19? I'm talking about the secrecy, cover ups, threats, gags and refusal to allow investigations not about lockdown procedures or how efficiently they've built hospitals.

I see the evil Trump has been mentioned yet again (oh look the Chinese/Russians have done something questionable, lets bring up Trump and have a pop at him) and although this never surprises me I'd include the USA is the following too, if either the UK or the USA acted has China has done the meeja and all the Trump and poodle UK haters would have a melt down but when China walks all over human rights and puts a (figurative or even real) gun to the head of anyone not towing the party line what do we get.... "Ah well...Trump.... UK secrets..."

Can't the excusers take a day off and just admit that the Chinese regime is one of the most dangerous and secretive on the planet and just about anything is possible of them without bringing Trump, the US or the UK into it?

Personally, I wouldn't be too surprised if C19 walked out of a Chinese lab, who knows? They'll never let an international team in to see what if anything can be determined and if that's what happened it'll probably never be proved as anyone even looking like stepping forward with proof would be disappeared PDQ no matter where in the world they were. Wet markets may well be a more likely cause and whilst these disgraceful (from a western perspective) places exist animal welfare and human health issues will exist. If only the world could do without Chinese manufactured goods and money for a few years we could put some pressure on China for these hateful places to be closed down and for the awful abuses of human rights, murders and crimes against humanity to stop even if no one will ever be brought to justice over them.
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The usual whataboutery from you. I'm quite happy to point a finger at the evil Chinese regime, I just prefer some evidence other than a gut thought, you know some real tangible evidence!

IMO you can never have enough pops at Trump, he deserves everyone. In this case even more so, as his administration is pushing the dangerous falsehood that the virus escaped from the Wuhan lab where not a single shred of evidence supports that, or at least non thats is in the public domain. Of course there is plenty of evidence to the contrary but lets not let that get in the way of good ole rant.
 
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AndrewFlannigan said:
I know that it's fashionable to disparage the CCP and by our standards they do get some things badly wrong.

However, compared with their predecessors they have done a great deal of good for their population. They have taken a country riven by civil and international wars and changed it beyond the wildest dreams of their grandparents.
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I wouldn’t go so far as that. They have done better than Mao & Co but I don’t think it’s fair to compare them with the Imperial past if that is what you mean Although it’s impossible to say what would have happened if Mao had not taken over, Taiwan, & to a lesser extent Hong Kong, show another Chinese future was possible.
In the meantime, American and British politicians have taken wealthy countries and forced millions into poverty.

As has been suggested elsewhere it is best to remove the plank of wood from your eye before attempting to remove the tiny speck from another's (a rare example of religion providing practical and useful advice).
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True :).
 
sphexx said:
I wouldn’t go so far as that. They have done better than Mao & Co but I don’t think it’s fair to compare them with the Imperial past if that is what you mean.
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I'm starting from the death throes of the Qing Dynasty, through the Kuomintang Republic (which takes in the Warlord Fragmentation, the Manchu puppet government and the Japanese invasion) to the Maoist period. It must have seemed to the peasant in the paddy field that each new bunch were worse than the last, It's from Deng onwards that China finds a middle way, which has made a big difference to many of its citizens, although there's clearly a long march still ahead.

There are no heroes in my opinion but there do seem to be a lot of flawed people trying to do the right thing.
 
https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp...e-for-its-role-in-the-fight-against-covid-19/


Two weeks later the same paper reported -
A Stonehaven firm praised by Nicola Sturgeon just two weeks ago for its work bottling hand sanitiser has lost out to an overseas supplier – with orders cancelled and 45 staff put on furlough. Food ingredients manufacturer Macphie has been working in collaboration with other Scottish businesses to produce hand sanitiser, to be supplied direct to NHS facilities and has already produced around 90,000 bottles.

Note not everything Nicola Sturgeon is doing is great:rolleyes:
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I'm starting from the death throes of the Qing Dynasty, through the Kuomintang Republic (which takes in the Warlord Fragmentation, the Manchu puppet government and the Japanese invasion) to the Maoist period. It must have seemed to the peasant in the paddy field that each new bunch were worse than the last, It's from Deng onwards that China finds a middle way, which has made a big difference to many of its citizens, although there's clearly a long march still ahead.

There are no heroes in my opinion but there do seem to be a lot of flawed people trying to do the right thing.
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Sort of personal experience with that, my Grandfather was at Tsing Tao, the forgotten war, because we were helping out Victorias cousin get a warm water port
 
One of the central principles of the successful pandemic response in South Korea has been 'absolute transparency'. Here, not so much.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-fury-over-attempt-to-censor-covid-19-advice

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'The report was one of a series of documents published by the Scientific Advisory Group on Emergencies (Sage) this week to mollify growing criticism about the lack of transparency over the advice given to ministers responding to the coronavirus.'
 
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AndrewFlannigan said:
I'm starting from the death throes of the Qing Dynasty, through the Kuomintang Republic (which takes in the Warlord Fragmentation, the Manchu puppet government and the Japanese invasion) to the Maoist period. It must have seemed to the peasant in the paddy field that each new bunch were worse than the last, It's from Deng onwards that China finds a middle way, which has made a big difference to many of its citizens,
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We an agree on Deng but they seem to be slipping back with Xi :(.

although there's clearly a long march still ahead.
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Long March indeed :)

There are no heroes in my opinion but there do seem to be a lot of flawed people trying to do the right thing.
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Not trying hard enough IMNVHO :(. Hong Hong fiasco is completely unnecessary :(.
 
Peter10d said:
https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp...e-for-its-role-in-the-fight-against-covid-19/
sturgeon-praises-stonehaven-company-macphie-for-its-role-in-the-fight-against-covid-19/


Two weeks later the same paper reported -
A Stonehaven firm praised by Nicola Sturgeon just two weeks ago for its work bottling hand sanitiser has lost out to an overseas supplier – with orders cancelled and 45 staff put on furlough. Food ingredients manufacturer Macphie has been working in collaboration with other Scottish businesses to produce hand sanitiser, to be supplied direct to NHS facilities and has already produced around 90,000 bottles.

Note not everything Nicola Sturgeon is doing is great:rolleyes:
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Do you have the link to the latter story, which hopefully explains why this happened?

I don't think anyone thinks that everything anyone does is great, but there is nothing in that quote that says Nicola Sturgeon had any involvement with this decision.

I doubt she has any direct involvement with NHS procurement, and given her previous support for the scheme, it doesn't seem a particularly clever political decision for her to then be involved with "cancelling" the order.
 
myotis said:
Do you have the link to the latter story, which hopefully explains why this happened?

I don't think anyone thinks that everything anyone does is great, but there is nothing in that quote that says Nicola Sturgeon had any involvement with this decision.

I doubt she has any direct involvement with NHS procurement, and given her previous support for the scheme, it doesn't seem a particularly clever political decision for her to then be involved with "cancelling" the order.
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It seems to be from a newspaper from north east Scotland that has reported both stories. The second report was listed on there web page but did not elaborate any further.
I would have thought as First Minister she would have been well informed of the decision to switch to abroad for these supplies and surely she could then have had some influence over any decision. It is one thing if we have to seek supplies from abroad due to there being no options in the UK, but after a company in Scotland started production only to lose the contract later seems a shocking mismanagement by someone.
Like you I would like to see who is at blame but it must lie somewhere between the Scottish Government and NHS Scotland.
 
Peter10d said:
It seems to be from a newspaper from north east Scotland that has reported both stories. The second report was listed on there web page but did not elaborate any further.
I would have thought as First Minister she would have been well informed of the decision to switch to abroad for these supplies and surely she could then have had some influence over any decision. It is one thing if we have to seek supplies from abroad due to there being no options in the UK, but after a company in Scotland started production only to lose the contract later seems a shocking mismanagement by someone.
Like you I would like to see who is at blame but it must lie somewhere between the Scottish Government and NHS Scotland.
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If she’s directly involved in buying stuff for the NHS (S) then she shouldn’t be surely?
 
Peter10d said:
I would have thought as First Minister she would have been well informed of the decision to switch to abroad for these supplies and surely she could then have had some influence over any decision. It is one thing if we have to seek supplies from abroad due to there being no options in the UK, but after a company in Scotland started production only to lose the contract later seems a shocking mismanagement by someone.
Like you I would like to see who is at blame but it must lie somewhere between the Scottish Government and NHS Scotland.
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Or, its more complicated than that. I'm not automatically defending the Scottish Government, or Nicola Sturgeon, or NHS Scotland, but I'm struggling to see why any of them would cancel the order without good reasons. Especially, given the potential political backlash.

Maybe it was "shocking mismanagement" on the part of Macphie, who it turned couldn't supply the quantities promised, or maybe there was a quality issue or maybe here decided to treble their price, or some other problem that meant it was actually Macphie who "forced" the cancellation. There would seem to be some political mileage for an SNP led Government to have these things done in Scotland, so why would they cancel the order without good reason.

Or some times there is no one to blame, just an unfortunate set of circumstances resulting in things happening that no one wanted.

I'd just like to see a bit more information.

Edit:

And here is little bit more

"In a statement, the Scottish Government maintained the family-owned firm, and other bottling firms, had “fulfilled the contracts” placed with it, adding a new contract has now been placed with another Scottish firm for the next share of the product, based on “cost and capacity”.

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp...ent-failed-to-fulfil-hand-sanitiser-contract/
 
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myotis said:
Or, its more complicated than that. I'm not automatically defending the Scottish Government, or Nicola Sturgeon, or NHS Scotland, but I'm struggling to see why any of them would cancel the order without good reasons. Especially, given the potential political backlash.

Maybe it was "shocking mismanagement" on the part of Macphie, who it turned couldn't supply the quantities promised, or maybe there was a quality issue or maybe here decided to treble their price, or some other problem that meant it was actually Macphie who "forced" the cancellation. There would seem to be some political mileage for an SNP led Government to have these things done in Scotland, so why would they cancel the order without good reason.

Or some times there is no one to blame, just an unfortunate set of circumstances resulting in things happening that no one wanted.

I'd just like to see a bit more information.

Edit:

And here is little bit more

"In a statement, the Scottish Government maintained the family-owned firm, and other bottling firms, had “fulfilled the contracts” placed with it, adding a new contract has now been placed with another Scottish firm for the next share of the product, based on “cost and capacity”.

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp...ent-failed-to-fulfil-hand-sanitiser-contract/
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Interesting read but the Macphie CEO clearly thinks the Scottish government has some explaining to do -


But Macphie’s CEO Andy Stapley claims the company were told they would be responsible for bottling 250,000 hand gel products but was cut short at 90,000 bottles, adding the Scottish Government had “not fulfilled” that commitment

I sure if this had happened in England Boris would be getting slated [emoji848]
 
Peter10d said:
Interesting read but the Macphie CEO clearly thinks the Scottish government has some explaining to do -


But Macphie’s CEO Andy Stapley claims the company were told they would be responsible for bottling 250,000 hand gel products but was cut short at 90,000 bottles, adding the Scottish Government had “not fulfilled” that commitment

I sure if this had happened in England Boris would be getting slated [emoji848]
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Yes, I did read the whole thing, and obviously that's his view or there wouldn't be a story. But given the different views, I suspect we would need a lawyer to review the contract to know what was and wasn't committed to. My experience of Government contracts (in England and Wales) is that the Government procurement people are brilliant at committing the contractor to almost impossible conditions while committing the Government to very little.

So fare we haven't seen any evidence to know whether Nicola Sturgeon deserves to be slated or not, but as the need for evidence is generally irrelevant when it comes to slating politicians, of any flavour, then yes I suspect Boris would indeed get slated if this had happened in England.
 
myotis said:
Yes, I did read the whole thing, and obviously that's his view or there wouldn't be a story. But given the different views, I suspect we would need a lawyer to review the contract to know what was and wasn't committed to. My experience of Government contracts (in England and Wales) is that the Government procurement people are brilliant at committing the contractor to almost impossible conditions while committing the Government to very little.

So fare we haven't seen any evidence to know whether Nicola Sturgeon deserves to be slated or not, but as the need for evidence is generally irrelevant when it comes to slating politicians, of any flavour, then yes I suspect Boris would indeed get slated if this had happened in England.
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[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]. So true -

but as the need for evidence is generally irrelevant when it comes to slating politicians, of any flavour, then yes I suspect Boris would indeed get slated if this had happened in England.[/



Going forward it is now so important that all UK leaders do everything in their powers to secure jobs as I am starting to hear of so many redundancies in Scotland despite the furlough scheme.
 
Peter10d said:
[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]. So true -

but as the need for evidence is generally irrelevant when it comes to slating politicians, of any flavour, then yes I suspect Boris would indeed get slated if this had happened in England.[/



Going forward it is now so important that all UK leaders do everything in their powers to secure jobs as I am starting to hear of so many redundancies in Scotland despite the furlough scheme.
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I agree with that, and one of the more interesting aspects of your story, and I obviously have sympathy for Macphie, is that Macphie said the contract went overseas and the Government said it went to another Scottish company.
 
So with the news this morning that there's to be a 14 day isolation period after landing in the UK.

Assuming my Thailand trip goes ahead in August, I land back in the UK on 1st September. And have a wedding on the 12th September.

So I guess that's another wedding I'm going to have to cancel :/
 
KitsuneAndy said:
So with the news this morning that there's to be a 14 day isolation period after landing in the UK.

Assuming my Thailand trip goes ahead in August, I land back in the UK on 1st September. And have a wedding on the 12th September.

So I guess that's another wedding I'm going to have to cancel :/
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You could cancel your trip.....:exit:
 
I wonder if this will apply to Eurostar?
Few weeks in Europe then stay at home for a couple of weeks, i'm down with that.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
I could, and it might not even go ahead anyway. But at present it is.

I'd lose more cancelling the trip voluntarily than I would cancelling the wedding though
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Not sure how they will be enforcing it, you could just do both!
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Won't cancelling a wedding so you can go on a trip have a similar effect?
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I guess it’s an easy one to explain. In normal times it would not be a problem. In any case, what sort of wedding will it be? Hope Andy Has a wide angle as the group shot with everyone 2m apart will be interesting!!! Do we really think large scale events like that will still happen, bars and venues like that open? At best by the end of the month we may be able to see a couple of other people or go out a few more times a day to a garden centre. Just going into next will be June at best.
 
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