The virus. PPE. Part 1

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sphexx said:
(My bold) Nightmare. Wetherby is in West Yorkshire* but I think every (maybe nearly every) road out crosses North Yorkshire.

*Leeds claims it is in Leeds but every “Welcome to Leeds” sign they have erected as you approach Wetherby has been defaced :) so I’m not so sure :).
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I'm not sure how serious the County idea was, but there have got to be lots and lots of problems trying to organise at a county level, or even at a wider regional level e.g. South West. I fear it is going to be difficult, whatever we do.
 
cambsno said:
Anyone else noticed that the people at the briefings are not showing the long unruly hair nor the diy look the rest of us have? In this together?
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Yes, it's obvious that they must all be married to an expert hairdresser . . .
One rule for us, another for them.
On a related subject - sort of - when the future became obvious to me I bought myself a very decent hair clipper kit via Ebay, for £17.45. Today, same product, same seller, £99.95.
 
myotis said:
I'm not sure how serious the County idea was, but there have got to be lots and lots of problems trying to organise at a county level, or even at a wider regional level e.g. South West. I fear it is going to be difficult, whatever we do.
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Why would anyone want to leave Wessex? :).
 
Stansthirdboy said:
How would that work ?
Are you saying that Hampshire should have different rules to Herefordshire ?
It would be total and utter confusion
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Regions in other countries seem to be able to do it, why not us? There is even a town between Holland and Belgium where one side of the road belongs to each, so on one side various shops are open, the same on the other side are not!!!

If there is high infection rates in say London, and vet low in East Anglia why not have measured accordingly?
 
myotis said:
I'm not sure how serious the County idea was, but there have got to be lots and lots of problems trying to organise at a county level, or even at a wider regional level e.g. South West. I fear it is going to be difficult, whatever we do.
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I think the county thing was an interim measure whilst relaxing the lockdown slightly. Basically if you want to go to a beach or country park, you would be able to, but only within the confines of your own county. Leaving your own county would be reserved for valid reasons like work. It was Chris Evan's that asked Hancock about it the other morning on the radio, but it was more to do with outdoor events like concerts, motor racing, horse racing etc. If attendance is restricted to people living in the same county as the event, the attendance is going to be alot smaller, than it would have been if anyone from anywhere had been allowed to attend.
 
cambsno said:
Regions in other countries seem to be able to do it, why not us?
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None at all that I can see. The essential thing is to really enforce distancing and wearing protection. For the ordinary person a filter mask or even a simple visor appears to be adequate, provided people stay far enough apart. The message it seems necessary to get across is that the primary purpose of a mask in distancing is to protect other people from you, not so much the other way around.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Yes, it's obvious that they must all be married to an expert hairdresser . . .
One rule for us, another for them.
On a related subject - sort of - when the future became obvious to me I bought myself a very decent hair clipper kit via Ebay, for £17.45. Today, same product, same seller, £99.95.
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I have been doing my own hair for about 20yrs. Clippers round the sides and back then a trim with scissors over the top. Very easy to do a neat job. Or there are videos on youtube for self cuts or partners to get tips on how to cut your hair.
 
nilagin said:
I think the county thing was an interim measure whilst relaxing the lockdown slightly. Basically if you want to go to a beach or country park, you would be able to, but only within the confines of your own county. Leaving your own county would be reserved for valid reasons like work. .
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Thanks, it will be interesting to see how this all pans out.
 
nilagin said:
I have been doing my own hair for about 20yrs. Clippers round the sides and back then a trim with scissors over the top. Very easy to do a neat job. Or there are videos on youtube for self cuts or partners to get tips on how to cut your hair.
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Would love to see a photo of your haircut....:LOL:
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
None at all that I can see. The essential thing is to really enforce distancing and wearing protection. For the ordinary person a filter mask or even a simple visor appears to be adequate, provided people stay far enough apart. The message it seems necessary to get across is that the primary purpose of a mask in distancing is to protect other people from you, not so much the other way around.
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But if both parties are wearing masks they are protecting each other. But most masks aren't one way valves, if they are going to stop the virus from getting out, it is going to stop it getting in. The N95 type masks we used at work had little valves, the valve was shut when you took a breath, but opened when you exhaled. If you expect to be in close proximity to someone, a face visor would be necessary, but other than that, a pair of safety glasses or wrap around glasses should suffice for a distance of 2m plus.
 
These two really are very sad creeps, if they had proof it would of been released.

Trump touts Wuhan lab theory
1588886632220.gif
AFPCopyright: AFP
"Something happened," Trump told reporters in the Oval Office when asked about the theory that the coronavirus was released from a laboratory in Wuhan, China.
"Probably it was incompetence. Somebody was stupid,” he added during a meeting with the Texas governor.
Over the weekend, US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo claimed he had seen "enormous evidence" that the virus had originated at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
On Wednesday, he told Fox Business network that he had "seen evidence that this likely came from the Wuhan Institute of Virology," but added that he'd be "happy to see evidence that disproves that".
Trump has promised a report on what role the institute played in the global outbreak. China has denied the theory.
Read more here: Is there any evidence for lab release theory?
 
Fuji Dave said:
These two really are very sad creeps, if they had proof it would of been released.

Trump touts Wuhan lab theory
View attachment 278043
AFPCopyright: AFP
"Something happened," Trump told reporters in the Oval Office when asked about the theory that the coronavirus was released from a laboratory in Wuhan, China.
"Probably it was incompetence. Somebody was stupid,” he added during a meeting with the Texas governor.
Over the weekend, US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo claimed he had seen "enormous evidence" that the virus had originated at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
On Wednesday, he told Fox Business network that he had "seen evidence that this likely came from the Wuhan Institute of Virology," but added that he'd be "happy to see evidence that disproves that".
Trump has promised a report on what role the institute played in the global outbreak. China has denied the theory.
Read more here: Is there any evidence for lab release theory?
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You’re right, if there was any shred of truth of this, Trump would have made the information public.

It’s just a measure of Trump’s desperation. He’ll say and do anything to try and distract from the crisis and maximise his chances of reelection.

Reelection is a far more pressing issue for Trump than something trivial like saving the lives of his countrymen.

The truly sad thing is that now America really needs a leader and instead has a blamer in charge.
 
Uncle Fester said:
You’re right, if there was any shred of truth of this, Trump would have made the information public.

It’s just a measure of Trump’s desperation. He’ll say and do anything to try and distract from the crisis and maximise his chances of reelection.

Reelection is a far more pressing issue for Trump than something trivial like saving the lives of his countrymen.

The truly sad thing is that now America really needs a leader and instead has a blamer in charge.
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And in any case if it was a lab error, the US has had a few (which @Fuji Dave ‘s link lists), and it makes no difference to the poor response of the US (and others) to the pandemic.
 
'NIH’s axing of bat coronavirus grant a ‘horrible precedent’ and might break rules, critics say'

'The research community is reacting with alarm and anger to the National Institutes of Health’s (NIH’s) abrupt and unusual termination of a grant supporting research in China on how coronaviruses—such as the one causing the current pandemic—move from bats to humans.

The agency axed the grant last week, after conservative U.S. politicians and media repeatedly suggested—without evidence—that the pandemic severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) escaped from a laboratory in Wuhan, China, that employs a Chinese virologist who had been receiving funding from the grant. The termination, which some analysts believe might violate regulations governing NIH, also came 7 days after President Donald Trump, asked about the project at a press conference, said: “We will end that grant very quickly.”'

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...e-precedent-and-might-break-rules-critics-say
 
So the NHS contact tracing app is made by IDOX software, which is owned by IDOX PLC. And one of the directors is an Alice Cummings.

Any relation I wonder?
 
KitsuneAndy said:
So the NHS contact tracing app is made by IDOX software, which is owned by IDOX PLC. And one of the directors is an Alice Cummings.

Any relation I wonder?
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And it is, of course, the same Idox set up by Peter Lilley that also got the GE postal votes contract.
 
They probably know exactly what happened, I highly doubt "nothing" happened.
It seems most likely that somebody got infected by accident in a lab and unknowingly passed it on to the local population.
Its difficult to formulate a more likely scenario, and its no less likely after Trump said it.
With CCP disappearing people all over the place, destroying evidence and refusing independent investigations, we might never know.
 
Days ago there was a story not too far from where I live of a barbecue/street party that had to be broken up by police and this is in an area which reportedly has/had the worst lockdown observance and the highest infection rate in the country.

Yesterday there was loud music for hours (it was so loud I gave up sitting in the garden and went back inside) but I wasn't sure where it was coming from until 20:00 when we went out the front to clap the NHS. I could then see that further down the road there was bunting up and quite a gathering of people having a whale of a time.

I kid you not.

WTF is wrong with people?

I keep wondering what the Germans have done so right keeping c19 seemingly in check better than us but maybe it's simple, maybe they love to obey rule whilst the average Brit (in some areas at least) seems to see rules as things to be broken.

I honestly don't understand what I'm seeing around me.
 
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We've had a local Councillor hold a BBQ for the family to celebrate the birth of a baby, even the inlaws were invited from miles away (Yes they too turned up)
 
woof woof said:
I keep wondering what the Germans have done so right keeping c19 seemingly in check better than us but maybe it's simple, maybe they love to obey rule whilst the average Brit (in some areas at least) seems to see rules as things to be broken.
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German efficiency, it cost them the war.
 
Stansthirdboy said:
German efficiency, it cost them the war.
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Loooong time back an ex soldier colleague told me a story about an exercise with Germans. On the day it was to start there was a good old British cock up and only half the men and kit turned up but without batting an eye the Brit commander reorganised things and got on with it. The Germans were astonished and said that in the same position they'd have had no idea what to do :D

I can see how muddling through and not simply coming to a stop if the plan goes wrong could work but generally maybe it's best to have a well worked out plan and a backup plan or two too?
 
woof woof said:
Loooong time back an ex soldier colleague told me a story about an exercise with Germans. On the day it was to start there was a good old British cock up and only half the men and kit turned up but without batting an eye the Brit commander reorganised things and got on with it. The Germans were astonished and said that in the same position they'd have had no idea what to do :D

I can see how muddling through and not simply coming to a stop if the plan goes wrong could work but generally maybe it's best to have a well worked out plan and a backup plan or two too?
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I have an unhealthy interest in tanks, the allies had six shermans for every troop, the quality on the Shemans was negligible. The German Panzer was a far superior tank, however it was not allowed out of the factory unless it met the spec, there are stories than 100 of them were held up because the primer paint was the wrong shade. that may be a myth, but the small chain that held the fuel caps on was made to a standard, the British used chain that pre war had been used to flush the loo in outside lavvies
 
joxby said:
They probably know exactly what happened, I highly doubt "nothing" happened.
It seems most likely that somebody got infected by accident in a lab and unknowingly passed it on to the local population.
Its difficult to formulate a more likely scenario, and its no less likely after Trump said it.
With CCP disappearing people all over the place, destroying evidence and refusing independent investigations, we might never know.
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(My bold) I don’t see how you can claim (without evidence) it is “most likely”. None of the others have originated from labs, so on the face of it its more likely to have come the same way. Secondly the Wuhan lab was partly financed by USA, had visiting US scientists, published their work and so on and there is no evidence they were working on this virus.

The work of the lab is being portrayed as something sinister but research on bat viruses seems to me to be essential since they are an accepted source of some of these human infections.

I agree about the CCP ”disappearing” people and so on but their early inefficiency is mirrored by that of others like Trump & Johnson, with less excuse since by then the epidemic was an established fact :(.
 
joxby said:
They probably know exactly what happened, I highly doubt "nothing" happened.
It seems most likely that somebody got infected by accident in a lab and unknowingly passed it on to the local population.
Its difficult to formulate a more likely scenario, and its no less likely after Trump said it.
With CCP disappearing people all over the place, destroying evidence and refusing independent investigations, we might never know.
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From Wired.co.uk
"
The disease appears to have originated from a Wuhan seafood market where wild animals, including marmots, birds, rabbits, bats and snakes, are traded illegally. Coronaviruses are known to jump from animals to humans, so it’s thought that the first people infected with the disease – a group primarily made up of stallholders from the seafood market – contracted it from contact with animals.
The hunt for the animal source of Covid-19 is still unknown, although there are some strong contenders. A team of virologists at the Wuhan Institute for Virology released a detailed paper showing that the new coronaviruses' genetic makeup is 96 per cent identical to that of a coronavirus found in bats, while a study published on March 26 argues that genetic sequences of coronavirus in pangolins are between 88.5 and 92.4 per cent similar to the human virus. Some early cases of Covid-19, however, appear to have inflicted people with no link to the Wuhan market at all, suggesting that the initial route of human infection may pre-date the market cases.
The Wuhan market was shut down for inspection and cleaning on January 1, but by then it appears that Covid-19 was already starting to spread beyond the market itself. On January 21, the WHO Western Pacific office said the disease was also being transmitted between humans – evidence of which is apparent after medical staff became infected with the virus. "

Don't shoot the messenger
 
Stansthirdboy said:
I have an unhealthy interest in tanks, the allies had six shermans for every troop, the quality on the Shemans was negligible. The German Panzer was a far superior tank, however it was not allowed out of the factory unless it met the spec, there are stories than 100 of them were held up because the primer paint was the wrong shade. that may be a myth, but the small chain that held the fuel caps on was made to a standard, the British used chain that pre war had been used to flush the loo in outside lavvies
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I don’t know about your story but I do recall reading that the Nazis were developing tanks superior to those of the Russians but couldn’t manufacture enough of these complex tanks compare to the Soviets who were churning out tanks in their factories in Siberia that they had relocated from the West earlier in the invasion.

Maybe this is it:

”Daimler-Benz and MAN were asked to develop a 30-tonne tank, the VK30.02, incorporating a new Rheinmetall turret. Hitler preferred the Daimler-Benz, but the Weapons Department preferred the MAN, which was more like earlier German tanks. Originally, the VK20, a new 20-tonne tank, had been proposed in 1938 as the next German tank, but this project was clearly inadequate now. In May 1942, MAN was contracted to produce pre-production prototypes, although the Panther tank did not enter production until 1943, and the Model D Panther with increased thickness of armour now weighed 44.8 tonnes. Their combat deployment in June 1943 for Operation Citadel was a debacle.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_encounter_of_Soviet_T-34_and_KV_tanks
 
joxby said:
Its difficult to formulate a more likely scenario, and its no less likely after Trump said it.
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It's not really difficult at all. The four coronaviruses that cause common cold symptoms were transmitted from other animals to humans long before there were virus labs, and are now endemic across the world. Two more, SARS and MERS, first entered the human population earlier this century and we know that MERS has been separately transmitted from camels to humans on multiple occasions. A couple of years ago a new and lethal coronavirus was transmitted from bats to pigs without human intervention. In areas of rural China near bat colonies, antibodies to SARS-related coronaviruses have been detected in blood samples from the local people, suggesting that transmission is probably happening again and again, and it was only a matter of time before someone met a virus that was better adapted to transmit between humans. It seems most likely that this is exactly what has happened, either directly from bats or via an intermediate host, but only noticed when it arrived at a major population centre and caused a cluster of pneumonia cases.
 
Retune said:
It's not really difficult at all. The four coronaviruses that cause common cold symptoms were transmitted from other animals to humans long before there were virus labs, and are now endemic across the world. Two more, SARS and MERS, first entered the human population earlier this century and we know that MERS has been separately transmitted from camels to humans on multiple occasions. A couple of years ago a new and lethal coronavirus was transmitted from bats to pigs without human intervention. In areas of rural China near bat colonies, antibodies to SARS-related coronaviruses have been detected in blood samples from the local people, suggesting that transmission is probably happening again and again, and it was only a matter of time before someone met a virus that was better adapted to transmit between humans. It seems most likely that this is exactly what has happened, either directly from bats or via an intermediate host, but only noticed when it arrived at a major population centre and caused a cluster of pneumonia cases.
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As you describe this is the more plausible explanation as to what happened. However I see no reason why China has stopped WHO scientists assisting with an investigation into the cause.

More importantly let’s never forget this doctor who if had not been silenced and made to sign a ridiculous declaration that he was spreading rumours, the World might not be looking at anywhere near as many deaths.

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Peter10d said:
As you describe this is the more plausible explanation as to what happened. However I see no reason why China has stopped WHO scientists assisting with an investigation into the cause.
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There is some commentary on the Chinese position in the article on NIH funding I linked above. It's worth reading to get an idea of how the US scientists who regularly collaborated with their colleagues in Wuhan view the situation - they think this is a natural event, even if they can't completely rule out a lab spillover, but would like to see more openness from the Chinese government (though the current standoff with the US just makes that more difficult).

'James Le Duc, director of Galveston National Laboratory, where he runs a BSL-4 lab, trains scientists in biosafety from around the world—including one who came from Shi’s lab. He says he visited WIV shortly before its BSL-4 laboratory opened in 2018, and has known Shi for several years and holds her in high regard. “I just hate to see a world-class coronavirologist, who’s dedicated her life working with this, being scrutinized as the possible source,” says Le Duc, who sees no evidence for a lab spillover but does not rule out the possibility. Other researchers familiar with WIV and Shi’s work also are skeptical of claims that WIV was unsafe. “You can never eliminate anything 100%, but everything that we know—and everything that we know has happened in nature about emergence—says this came out of nature,” Keusch says.

... Still, Le Duc says he’s concerned about the Chinese government’s lack of openness about research into the origins of the pandemic—and the extra restrictions it has placed on scientists in China who are studying the question. “They’re not helping themselves,” he says, adding the U.S. government is also “throwing rocks at them.” And he worries the tensions will come at a high price when it comes to responding to COVID-19. “We would know a lot less were it not for the fact that we’ve been working with these guys in Wuhan for years,” he says. “We were personal friends with them—you know, you pick up the phone and talk to them. And this kind of dialogue is just critically important, especially now that there’s this hostile government attitude.”'

Peter10d said:
More importantly let’s never forget this doctor who if had not been silenced and made to sign a ridiculous declaration that he was spreading rumours, the World might not be looking at anywhere near as many deaths.
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Yes, another stupid and horribly counterproductive example of shooting the messenger.
 
Stansthirdboy said:
Don't shoot the messenger
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Why would I, its a perfectly legit scenario.
Do I think its more likely than a lab leak....no tbh.
Unfortunately the information available dictates neither is proved and that's exactly how the CCP wants to keep it.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
So the NHS contact tracing app is made by IDOX software, which is owned by IDOX PLC. And one of the directors is an Alice Cummings.

Any relation I wonder?
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Probably related to the other 50 or so Alice Cummings listed on LinkedIn as well.
 
Stansthirdboy said:
I have an unhealthy interest in tanks, the allies had six shermans for every troop, the quality on the Shemans was negligible. The German Panzer was a far superior tank, however it was not allowed out of the factory unless it met the spec, there are stories than 100 of them were held up because the primer paint was the wrong shade. that may be a myth, but the small chain that held the fuel caps on was made to a standard, the British used chain that pre war had been used to flush the loo in outside lavvies
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For a more recent counterexample, consider the testing policy in the early stage of the pandemic. In the UK, this was rigidly centralised and could only be carried out by a few officially designated labs, which didn't have much capacity. In Germany, once a validated test was published, it was widely and independently implemented by labs across the country without centralised control. This gave Germany an early heads-up on the extent of the epidemic, and allowed them to ramp up testing capacity much more rapidly than many other countries.
 
joxby said:
Do I think its more likely than a lab leak....no tbh.
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All the conspiracy theorists achieve, so far as I can tell, is to spread disinformation. This seems to be a form of mental illness virus which can harm others. Perhaps we should isolate the carriers to prevent harm to the wider community?
 
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Peter10d said:
However I see no reason why China has stopped WHO scientists assisting with an investigation into the cause.
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It’s what they do, they don’t need a reason.

The UK government is pretty secretive too, where is the report on Russian interference in our elections, or the report on Exercise Cygnus in 2016?
 
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