The virus. PPE. Part 1

[boyfalldown]

What malign purposes? Please do tell as I can't think of one.

.

honestly? Data is worth a lot of money. And there has never been a data misselling scandal in Britain. Ever

I should point out, before I’m accused of being a conspiracy nut, I already have the Aussie version of the app installed

 

[Gremlin]

Many people do have compatible smartphones, I'd guess even most.

I'm sure people like me with an ancient phone carried but rarely turned on are in a tiny minority and as such I'd be extremely careful and probably wouldn't ease my own lockdown.

And if you think about it the younger (sub 50 or 60) group are pretty likely to have a smartphone, with older people less likely to, who would probably be more likely to need to continue some form of isolation.

Watching the news this morning it seems many children are missing out on the online teaching because parents have
cancelled broadband because they can't afford it in the present situation.
Many young adults/kids may have smartphones financed by their parents so that could be another saving parents have to make,

 

[ancient_mariner]

First known case in France presented 27th December. No travel outside the country.

BBC News - Coronavirus: France's first known case 'was in December'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52526554

 

[sphexx]

Watching the news this morning it seems many children are missing out on the online teaching because parents have
cancelled broadband because they can't afford it in the present situation.
Many young adults/kids may have smartphones financed by their parents so that could be another saving parents have to make,

Maybe someone should propose free broadband for all

 

[tijuana taxi]

The odious IDS is today calling again for the umpteenth time to end the lockdown
What exactly is he losing from financially, must be an awful lot for him to keep repeating the same mantra

 

[sphexx]

“Fewer than 300 people out of the 18.1 million who entered the UK in the three months prior to the coronavirus lockdown were formally quarantined, figures reveal.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...iving-in-uk-in-run-up-to-lockdown-quarantined

 

[Studio488commercial]

Even the shape shifting reptilians have better things to do these days.

I do wish those against tracking apps could put forward a well thought out and reasonable real world case against them rather than the vague fear that they're interesting enough for Big Brother to give a toss about them and their lives at this precise moment.

I'm waiting...

It’s a pretty bad App though, it tells the authorities one thing and that is your phone has been within a certain distance of another phone, it relies on people telling the app they have symptoms, which could be anything, it takes no account of the environment, such as if you are outdoors or in a broom cupboard, it relies on self isolation and testing, it will rely on a horde of people sat behind desks relaying this information.

Who is going to pay for the people who have to be at home and self isolate, wait for a test and then the results Only to find out Doris their next door neighbour who sits next to the fence when you go out in the morning has a cold. This all would take at least a week, probably more.

Its a flawed system, and there is no way enough of the public will take it on board, let alone use it properly, and there’s a good chance it won’t work if your iPhone is locked !

As for privacy and misuse, well there is that as well.

A vaccine is the fix and That is the end of it, the “world” should be coming up with one, instead its a competition between countries, and then individual companies and institutes in those countries, al, wanting the financial benefits first to do it has.

 

[Studio488commercial]

Looks like someone got the data wrong with the nightingale hospitals. And I assume the gov know something we don’t, if they intend on closing them before the lockdown is eased it would indicate the need for them will certainly not be there. This whole thing has been very badly managed, and will cost the economy a fortune over many many years. Political stuff aside, this country is run by a Lot of people who haven’t got a bloody clue as to what they are doing, the system is broken, if you had to choose your managing director by vote instead of experience/qualification would have no businesses in the U.K.

 

[sphexx]

It’s a pretty bad App though, it tells the authorities one thing and that is your phone has been within a certain distance of another phone, it relies on people telling the app they have symptoms, which could be anything, it takes no account of the environment, such as if you are outdoors or in a broom cupboard, it relies on self isolation and testing, it will rely on a horde of people sat behind desks relaying this information.

Who is going to pay for the people who have to be at home and self isolate, wait for a test and then the results Only to find out Doris their next door neighbour who sits next to the fence when you go out in the morning has a cold. This all would take at least a week, probably more.

Its a flawed system, and there is no way enough of the public will take it on board, let alone use it properly, and there’s a good chance it won’t work if your iPhone is locked !

As for privacy and misuse, well there is that as well.

A vaccine is the fix and That is the end of it, the “world” should be coming up with one, instead its a competition between countries, and then individual companies and institutes in those countries, al, wanting the financial benefits first to do it has.

I don’t know enough about the app to criticise it but when did a Government IT initiative ever go wrong ... wait ... I’ll rephrase that ... when did a Government IT initiative ever go right?

 

[cambsno]

The odious IDS is today calling again for the umpteenth time to end the lockdown
What exactly is he losing from financially, must be an awful lot for him to keep repeating the same mantra

Am not saying we should end it totally but it does need to be relaxed imo.

 

[cambsno]

Looks like someone got the data wrong with the nightingale hospitals. And I assume the gov know something we don’t, if they intend on closing them before the lockdown is eased it would indicate the need for them will certainly not be there. This whole thing has been very badly managed, and will cost the economy a fortune over many many years. Political stuff aside, this country is run by a Lot of people who haven’t got a bloody clue as to what they are doing, the system is broken, if you had to choose your managing director by vote instead of experience/qualification would have no businesses in the U.K.

I don’t think you can say the nightingale was a mistake - better to have them idle now than not have built them and then have people in beds on corridors, refused entry and not have enough ventilatiors. The government at least got that right.

 

[mex]

Am not saying we should end it totally but it does need to be relaxed imo.

Based on what?

 

[woof woof]

Seen this in the USA?

A store security guard is shot dead after refusing entry to an unmasked woman and elsewhere "furious backlash from customers."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52540266

The enforced use of masks may be scientifically questionable but shooting people over this? Furious backlash?

I really don't know what's wrong with people.

 

[woof woof]

Based on what?

Twitter and facebook?

 

[jakeblu]

Looks like someone got the data wrong with the nightingale hospitals. And I assume the gov know something we don’t, if they intend on closing them before the lockdown is eased it would indicate the need for them will certainly not be there. This whole thing has been very badly managed, and will cost the economy a fortune over many many years. Political stuff aside, this country is run by a Lot of people who haven’t got a bloody clue as to what they are doing, the system is broken, if you had to choose your managing director by vote instead of experience/qualification would have no businesses in the U.K.

The Nightingale was there for a worse case scenario, fortunately that didn't happen likely due to the successfully, by and large, lockdown. There has already been huge criticism on here and elsewhere for the government, some of it justified, but imagine if the worse case scenario had materialised and there had been no provision fr it, then there would likely be anarchy.

 

[joxby]

The enforced use of masks may be scientifically questionable but shooting people over this? Furious backlash?

I really don't know what's wrong with people.

It reads like sooner or later somebody somewhere sometime was going to get shot by these people regardless, the excuse/opportunity just happened to be a dispute over a face mask, but it could have been anything at any time.

 

[woof woof]

It reads like sooner or later somebody somewhere sometime was going to get shot by these people regardless, the excuse/opportunity just happened to be a dispute over a face mask, but it could have been anything at any time.

I'm tempted to say "just let them get on with it" then when the people with functioning brains emerge from lockdown the earth will have been purged of the mouth breathing scum suckering idiots that have blighted humanity and the world for so long. And as a nice byproduct security guards wont be shot in the head by these idiots and can instead go home to their families.

 

[nilagin]

Looks like someone got the data wrong with the nightingale hospitals. And I assume the gov know something we don’t, if they intend on closing them before the lockdown is eased it would indicate the need for them will certainly not be there. This whole thing has been very badly managed, and will cost the economy a fortune over many many years. Political stuff aside, this country is run by a Lot of people who haven’t got a bloody clue as to what they are doing, the system is broken, if you had to choose your managing director by vote instead of experience/qualification would have no businesses in the U.K.

The Nightingales were only a precaution, hence why they had capacity for thousands of beds and only hundreds were set up. The London one does have some patients, but thankfully the London Hospitals never reached capacity to warrant the Nightingale realy needing to be used.
So the only people that have got the data wrong would be those whinging about the government not reacting fast enough, not reacting to the 2016 NHS pandemic simulation to see if the NHS could cope.
I can't vouch for the other Nightingales, but the London one isn't closing down as yet, as I said it does have some patients, but after that, it is only being mothballed, not closed as such.

 

[nilagin]

My sister heard Chris Evan's talking, on his breakfast show this morning, to Hancock. He asked him about mass gatherings. His answer was that indoor events are unlikely to be allowed for the remainder of the year, but evidence was showing that outdoor events could be allowed. However, there is likely to be restrictions on people moving about, ie, from one county to another without good reason. So unless the outdoor event is in your county, people should not be attending.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

There has already been huge criticism on here and elsewhere for the government

It seems to me that the primary duty of any citizen in a democracy is to criticise their government whenever that government makes a mistake.

Praising the government can safely be left to the government itself, the members of which will never be slow to claim responsibility for anything that goes right (no matter how little they had to do with the success).

 

[arclight]

The Nightingale was there for a worse case scenario, fortunately that didn't happen likely due to the successfully, by and large, lockdown. There has already been huge criticism on here and elsewhere for the government, some of it justified, but imagine if the worse case scenario had materialised and there had been no provision fr it, then there would likely be anarchy.

Agreed, I view the Nightingales as an essential precaution that was put into place swiftly and efficiently. Given that there is currently spare capacity perhaps that could be used to assist with the problem in care homes.

 

[woof woof]

It seems to me that the primary duty of any citizen in a democracy is to criticise their government whenever that government makes a mistake.

Praising the government can safely be left to the government itself, the members of which will never be slow to claim responsibility for anything that goes right (no matter how little they had to do with the success).

I can see the need to critisise when warranted but when no one is saying anything demonstrably better (as far as we can tell) the critisism maybe gets a little less justified. If someone emerged waving a plan they'd written a year ago predicting everything and getting all the measures spot on (as far as we can tell...) then fair enough but I don't remember anyone doing that, yet. So much of the critisism seem to be good old bitching, political games and hindsight. Our government, Con or Labour, is made up of fallible people who take advice from other fallible people so sadly we can expect some fallibility. It's not as if the WHO or even the EU emerges from this with a good record either. Allegedly.

To me the thing that's most surprising and upsetting, apart from the illness and death of course, is the idiotic behaviour displayed by some in western democracies, UK and USA in particular.

 

[sphexx]

Agreed, I view the Nightingales as an essential precaution that was put into place swiftly and efficiently. Given that there is currently spare capacity perhaps that could be used to assist with the problem in care homes.

I generally agree but there has been criticism that the Nightingale’s should have been designated for non-COVID use and the COVID patients being treated in “normal” hospitals. It’s worth discussing. Of course all that would have been in any proper pandemic planning that should have been carried out from 2016 on when the existing was found inadequate.

 

[mex]

Beggars belief that there are whole communities that really don't give a flying hoot for anyone else but themselves...party on.

https://www.ladbible.com/news/uk-police-break-up-bbq-and-bingo-party-with-up-to-25-people-20200505

 

[woof woof]

I generally agree but there has been criticism that the Nightingale’s should have been designated for non-COVID use and the COVID patients being treated in “normal” hospitals. It’s worth discussing. Of course all that would have been in any proper pandemic planning that should have been carried out from 2016 on when the existing was found inadequate.

Could that have been done as making it possible would mean stripping existing hospitals of equipment and staff? Maybe that would have been one almighty cock up.

People keep going back to 2016 but that was based on a flu pandemic wasn't it? I gather there's enough difference between flu and c19 to matter to the planning but even so we're into hindsight again.

 

[woof woof]

Beggars belief that there are whole communities that really don't give a flying hoot for anyone else but themselves...party on.

https://www.ladbible.com/news/uk-police-break-up-bbq-and-bingo-party-with-up-to-25-people-20200505

That's not too far from me. The area has been reported as being the most lockdown busting and also the worst in the UK at the mo for c19 spread.

The cockroaches must be rubbing their hand in glee thinking the earth will soon be theirs.

 

[cambsno]

Based on what?

The fact that we are past the peak, R is below 1 and other factors like that (i.e. not overwhelming the NHS). The fact that we have to balance a lot of factors and if we dont start relaxing soon the economy will suffer even more and this will affect poor/vulnerable the most. We cant go back to heading down the football this weekend after a few pints at lunchtime, but we can start easing back. If DIY stores can open why not other retail shops providing some distancing rules are followed etc..

 

[woof woof]

The fact that we are past the peak, R is below 1 and other factors like that (i.e. not overwhelming the NHS). The fact that we have to balance a lot of factors and if we dont start relaxing soon the economy will suffer even more and this will affect poor/vulnerable the most. We cant go back to heading down the football this weekend after a few pints at lunchtime, but we can start easing back. If DIY stores can open why not other retail shops providing some distancing rules are followed etc..

But tens of thousands of people are presumably still infectious and we've seen how early easing of lockdowns has lead to more infections in other countries. Ease too soon and R0.2 soon becomes R2/3. We know this.

 

[sphexx]

Could that have been done as making it possible would mean stripping existing hospitals of equipment and staff? Maybe that would have been one almighty cock up.

People keep going back to 2016 but that was based on a flu pandemic wasn't it? I gather there's enough difference between flu and c19 to matter to the planning but even so we're into hindsight again.

It is said (seems reasonable) that adequate planning for a flu pandemic would have helped with this one. Not sure why it would be thought influenza is the only possible/likely pandemic.

I don’t see why you call it hindsight though, I would characterise it as criticism of lack of foresight .

 

[nilagin]

I generally agree but there has been criticism that the Nightingale’s should have been designated for non-COVID use and the COVID patients being treated in “normal” hospitals. It’s worth discussing. Of course all that would have been in any proper pandemic planning that should have been carried out from 2016 on when the existing was found inadequate.

But what constitutes non-Covid use? If it involves big expensive equipment, that doesn't make it viable. If it involves operations, that involves setting up operating theatres etc, not really viable. As a temporary hospital for the virus, in terms of equipment it needs little more than beds and ventilators. Something a lot easier to manage.

 

[sphexx]

“How would Florence Nightingale have tackled Covid-19?”

Amusing this, but also appropriate given how the government have appropriated her name

https://www.theguardian.com/society...tingale-tackled-covid-19-200-year-anniversary

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

The Nightingales were only a precaution, hence why they had capacity for thousands of beds and only hundreds were set up. The London one does have some patients, but thankfully the London Hospitals never reached capacity to warrant the Nightingale realy needing to be used.
So the only people that have got the data wrong would be those whinging about the government not reacting fast enough, not reacting to the 2016 NHS pandemic simulation to see if the NHS could cope.
I can't vouch for the other Nightingales, but the London one isn't closing down as yet, as I said it does have some patients, but after that, it is only being mothballed, not closed as such.

Yep, the Govt were absolutely right to try and ramp up capacity just in case the worst happened.

 

[broc]

That's not too far from me. The area has been reported as being the most lockdown busting and also the worst in the UK at the mo for c19 spread.

The cockroaches must be rubbing their hand in glee thinking the earth will soon be theirs.

Prime breeding ground for recipients of the Darwin award.......

 

[joxby]

Maybe the Nightingales could help with care homes, its difficult to say how much given a good lot of people in them require specialist care for mental and physical disability's, I guess they're not set up for that, though I expect they would make do and mend in a pinch.
Dunno about opening other retailers, I mean people would just go and nobody would stay at home, its one thing to make available materials for maintenance and repairs, if everything was open the streets and roads would be full of people not staying at home.
Its carp for business but that's the way it is.

 

[nilagin]

It is said (seems reasonable) that adequate planning for a flu pandemic would have helped with this one. Not sure why it would be thought influenza is the only possible/likely pandemic.

I don’t see why you call it hindsight though, I would characterise it as criticism of lack of foresight.

China has been suffering epidemics for 20yrs https://www.who.int/csr/don/archive/country/chn/en/
Not even a simulation, yet they had to build emergency hospitals and source extra equipment and PPE to cope.
Seeing as epidemics of any sort of magnitude effect the UK, why would there have been a need to respond differently. As the virus has gone on there has been cases of the virus acting nothing like anything seen before, people apparently healthy one day with no visible signs of infection and dead the next day.
The recommendation that came out of the 2016 simulation was crowdv immunity, as the simulation was based on known pandemics. As this virus hasn't acted like anything seen before, how can you plan for it. You can only luck out and the initial plan you put in place works.

 

[nilagin]

Maybe the Nightingales could help with care homes, its difficult to say how much given a good lot of people in them require specialist care for mental and physical disability's, I guess they're not set up for that, though I expect they would make do and mend in a pinch.
Dunno about opening other retailers, I mean people would just go and nobody would stay at home, its one thing to make available materials for maintenance and repairs, if everything was open the streets and roads would be full of people not staying at home.
Its carp for business but that's the way it is.

Instead of opening up the street retailers all at once, perhaps it could be done like businesses returning to work who would have staggered starting and finishing days, perhap the shops could have staggered opening days. Certain types of shops open one day and another type of shop another day and so on.

 

[Retune]

First known case in France presented 27th December. No travel outside the country.

BBC News - Coronavirus: France's first known case 'was in December'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52526554

I dug out the paper here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924857920301643

I wonder why they didn't just test the samples from all 124 patients? There might be co-infections with SARS-CoV-2 in the 44 excluded for positive PCR results with other respiratory pathogens, and perhaps other cases in the 60 excluded for symptoms 'not typical' of COVID-19 (for whatever reason, nasal swabs had been taken from these patients). 1/14 of the remaining cases with flu-like symptoms and ground-glass opacity on CT scans tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, which makes me wonder what the other 13 cases had (how many significant respiratory pathogens aren't in the standard PCR screen?).

 

[mex]

The fact that we are past the peak, R is below 1 and other factors like that (i.e. not overwhelming the NHS). The fact that we have to balance a lot of factors and if we dont start relaxing soon the economy will suffer even more and this will affect poor/vulnerable the most. We cant go back to heading down the football this weekend after a few pints at lunchtime, but we can start easing back. If DIY stores can open why not other retail shops providing some distancing rules are followed etc..

Yes, I get the bit about being past 'the ' peak, however a second,third or fourth peak is quite a posibilty if the lockdown is lifted too soon. The ecconomy is surely to take second seat to people's lives being lost, no?, although I think the likes of IDS have made the case for lifting the lockdown because he and is funders stand to lose a few bob more than you or I, so you and I can be just a stat as far as they are concerned....show me the money ££££££££.

 

[mex]

32000 people (hospital & care home) have died from CV-19 in the UK, more than any other European county. Angela Rayner - "Latest ONS stats show that the dire situation in our social care sector is a crisis within a crisis. Any talk of being "past the peak" of this virus is meaningless given these figures. "

 

[Nod]

From or with? NOT trying to make a huge distinction but I know of at least 2 people who have died with it and both have been expected to die months, if not years ago from their other conditions.