The virus. PPE. Part 1

[cambsno]

So what is your point ? I refer you to your comment in your earlier post:-

" The key question is how many of these deaths would have occured without covid-19? Some of these people would have been in poor health and died over the coming weeks or months anyway. The slightest thing could kill, from a cold, to flu, or any other trivial ailment. "

Are you trying to justify government apathy towards the huge loss of lives in care homes ? A nation should be judged on how it cares for it's old, weak and infirm.
With their overwhelming focus on the NHS ( politically motivated ? ) The care homes have been left 'leaderless' and sadly lacking in PPE. These are 'Care Homes' not nursing homes.
Care home residents are no more likely to have health issues than elderly perople still lucky enough to live at home or with family. I believe this will all 'come out' in an enquiry when
some sort of normality resumes and I am betting the many thousands of families who have lost mothers, fathers etc in care homes are not going to like what surfaces.

Am looking at things like this - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52461034 where there are 2,700 LESS people per WEEK being diagnosed with cancer. As we all know, early diagnosis has a massive impact on if you can recover or not. We cannot just look at numbers dying of Covid, we need to look at the wider picture -

Richard Sullivan, professor of cancer and global health at King's College London, said the impact on years of lost life "could be quite dramatic", given cancer patients tend to be younger than those dying of coronavirus

 

[Deleted member 49549]

As ever with panorama they do seem to like to border in the dramatic, for example they claimed the government counted gloves as singles not pairs...every big pack of disposable gloves (I,e. hospital ward box style packaging) I have ever bought is a pack of 100 gloves, not 50 or 100 pairs.

https://www.gompels.co.uk/gloves/?sort=p.sort_order&order=ASC&page=1&end=1

https://www.sja.org.uk/first-aid-su...-and-consumables/disposable-first-aid-gloves/

https://www.justgloves.co.uk/Nitrile-Gloves

Etc. Etc.

(The exception has been when St. John ambulance supplies used to supply prepacked pairs of gloves for glove box kits and the like designed to be kept in small quantities and used occasionally, these were sold as packs of 10 pairs).

Splitting hairs I know but the entire culture of claims like that on panorama means I struggle to take it seriously.

Although there do appear to have been significant issues with ppe and those in the nhs and care industries have my sympathy.

If Mat Hancock was in charge of my breakfast he'd be counting every cornflake in my bowl and every drop of milk.

 

[cambsno]

You are not taking into account the many reports that people with COVID19 (maybe symptomless) and others "recovered from COVID19 but both lots untested/unreliably tested, have been discharged from hospitals into care homes., that also are short of the right PPe.

And that is wrong, but the government will wriggle out of that!

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Am looking at things like this - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52461034 where there are 2,700 LESS people per WEEK being diagnosed with cancer. As we all know, early diagnosis has a massive impact on if you can recover or not. We cannot just look at numbers dying of Covid, we need to look at the wider picture -

Richard Sullivan, professor of cancer and global health at King's College London, said the impact on years of lost life "could be quite dramatic", given cancer patients tend to be younger than those dying of coronavirus

Yep, the worry is that people are not going to the Doctors/Hospital becsause they don't want to put strain on the NHS

 

[cambsno]

If Mat Hancock was in charge of my breakfast he'd be counting every cornflake in my bowl and every drop of milk.

But he would of course 'pay tribute to the milkman', and also say 'its too soon to tell if it will fill you up'

 

[cambsno]

Yep, the worry is that people are not going to the Doctors/Hospital becsause they don't want to put strain on the NHS

Not just cancer:

An analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies noted that economic downturns have an impact on health as well as wealth.

It said the relationship was "complex" but that increased unemployment, falls in income and uncertainty over jobs would have an affect on health in the long term.

It pointed to research showing a 1% drop in employment leads to a 2% increase in chronic conditions, such as obesity and diabetes, with the poorest in society the most at risk.

University of Bristol researchers have tried to quantify this even further. They have said the benefit of a long-term lockdown in reducing premature deaths could be outweighed by the lost life expectancy from a prolonged economic dip.

The tipping point, they say, is a 6.4% decline in the size of the economy - on a par with what happened following the 2008 financial crash.

It would see a loss of three months of life, on average, across the population

Not to mention the mental health cost - this will be a huge financial cost for the NHS in coming years, as well as damaging for families, which is why a return to normality must come sooner than later.

 

[arclight]

Yep, the worry is that people are not going to the Doctors/Hospital becsause they don't want to put strain on the NHS

 

[Donnie]

Am looking at things like this - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52461034 where there are 2,700 LESS people per WEEK being diagnosed with cancer. As we all know, early diagnosis has a massive impact on if you can recover or not. We cannot just look at numbers dying of Covid, we need to look at the wider picture -

Richard Sullivan, professor of cancer and global health at King's College London, said the impact on years of lost life "could be quite dramatic", given cancer patients tend to be younger than those dying of coronavirus

Oh? And yet "

• Each year more than half (53%) of all cancer deaths in the UK are in people aged 75 and over (2015-2017)."

https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics-for-the-uk#collapseOne

Which seems to indicate the arguement for the wider picture being b******t.

 

[arclight]

KitsuneAndy said:
"Yep, the worry is that people are not going to the Doctors/Hospital becsause they don't want to put strain on the NHS"

Another reason that they may well not be going to Docs/Hosp because they fear the risk of becoming infected in these places (they always were an infection risk, but not as serious as Covid19).

That is a recognised hazard. I re-order prescriptions by phone, the GP Practice delivers then to the pharmacy who then delivers them to my door.

 

[jakeblu]

Am looking at things like this - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52461034 where there are 2,700 LESS people per WEEK being diagnosed with cancer. As we all know, early diagnosis has a massive impact on if you can recover or not. We cannot just look at numbers dying of Covid, we need to look at the wider picture -

Richard Sullivan, professor of cancer and global health at King's College London, said the impact on years of lost life "could be quite dramatic", given cancer patients tend to be younger than those dying of coronavirus

At least they're beginning to address that now

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52448427

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

KitsuneAndy said:
"Yep, the worry is that people are not going to the Doctors/Hospital becsause they don't want to put strain on the NHS"

Another reason that they may well not be going to Docs/Hosp because they fear the risk of becoming infected in these places (they always were an infection risk, but not as serious as Covid19).

That is a recognised hazard. I re-order prescriptions by phone, the GP Practice delivers then to the pharmacy who then delivers them to my door.

If you use Pharmacy2U they'll re-order it all for you and send it straight to you without a phonecall

 

[arclight]

Am looking at things like this - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52461034 where there are 2,700 LESS people per WEEK being diagnosed with cancer. As we all know, early diagnosis has a massive impact on if you can recover or not. We cannot just look at numbers dying of Covid, we need to look at the wider picture -

Richard Sullivan, professor of cancer and global health at King's College London, said the impact on years of lost life "could be quite dramatic", given cancer patients tend to be younger than those dying of coronavirus

Just a point to keep in mind. Those dying from Covid19 is one aspect, but the big threat is from the rapid infection rate from the virus. Failure to get that under control, and keeping it under control, will result in the NHS being overwhelmed by seriously ill patients. That calamity has been averted so far, but the situation is far from secure.

 

[arclight]

If you use Pharmacy2U they'll re-order it all for you and send it straight to you without a phonecall

Thanks, but they don't operate in my neck of the woods. Also, my prescribed items are variable so I always need to let the Doc know what I need.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Thanks, but they don't operate in my neck of the woods. Also, my prescribed items are variable so I always need to let the Doc know what I need.

Ah fair enough I have a repeat and find it a PITA to get the Dr and only found out about them late last year and it saves so much hassle!

But yeah, not gonna work if it's variable

 

[sphexx]

Completely unbiased view

See, the way this works is that you have to say where I was inaccurate otherwise you are just saying you don’t like what I wrote — like Trump saying “fake news” to anything he doesn’t like .

Everyone has bias so it‘s not a useful statement on its own . Hope this helps you

 

[sphexx]

If you use Pharmacy2U they'll re-order it all for you and send it straight to you without a phonecall

I usually order online from my GP via SystmOnline, they abandoned phone requests before this happened, and medications are being very quickly deliver by local volunteers.

However due to an initial glitch I changed pharmacies to PillTime (recommended here) but although they seem good and have good comms, the two prescriptions have never arrived -x Royal Mail is good here so it seems something wrong with their system, wrong address or something ;(.

 

[sphexx]

Ah fair enough I have a repeat and find it a PITA to get the Dr and only found out about them late last year and it saves so much hassle!

But yeah, not gonna work if it's variable

Yes, my first problem was an antibiotic one off script that the online pharmacy “returned to the NHS spine” and it’s fulfilled locally, it worked but only after several days delay which is not ideal .

 

[mex]

 

[bass_junkie83]

Yep, the worry is that people are not going to the Doctors/Hospital because they don't want to put strain on the NHS

It is only one anecdotal example, but we recently tried to use the NHS but were turned away.
My wife took a tumble and hurt her knee and after a couple of days rest was still no better. This being a Sunday morning calling the GP was not an option so she called 111 to get some advice. After the usual set of questions they advised that she should be seen in A&E.

So we all got in the car, us and two young kids as she can't drive herself and it's not like you can leave children with anyone these days and off we headed to Southend Hospital. We really didn't want to risk us all going in, especially the kids so I dropped her off outside the entrance and she hobbled the~8m to the door while I parked up and waited.

The A&E department was actually shut, my wife was told that they don't open until 8:00am as she was clearly well enough to make her own way to hospital they wouldn't see her anyway, despite telling them that she had only come on the advice of the NHS 111 service.

No idea how common an occurrence this is, but there seems to be a massive disconnect between the NHS 111 service and hospitals, though we have had similar experiences before so it may just be this one. But if you have the government saying that people should still use the NHS as normal, the NHS referring people to A&e, but A&E departments are turning people away then of course this will show as a reduction in usage.

 

[tijuana taxi]

See, the way this works is that you have to say where I was inaccurate otherwise you are just saying you don’t like what I wrote — like Trump saying “fake news” to anything he doesn’t like .

Everyone has bias so it‘s not a useful statement on its own . Hope this helps you

Thank you, it did help to remind me to only frequent the photography sections of this site.

 

[Retune]

There's a photography section?!

 

[tijuana taxi]

There's a photography section?!

Indeed, not sure some on here realise it or even own a camera let alone take a photo.

Be glad when the old codgers Ukulele classes start again, can annoy each other then

 

[sphexx]

Thank you, it did help to remind me to only frequent the photography sections of this site.

Lost for words then?

 

[sphexx]

Indeed, not sure some on here realise it or even own a camera let alone take a photo.

Be glad when the old codgers Ukulele classes start again, can annoy each other then

When you don’t like the message, attack the messenger, works for Trump.

 

[sphexx]

It is only one anecdotal example, but we recently tried to use the NHS but were turned away.
My wife took a tumble and hurt her knee and after a couple of days rest was still no better. This being a Sunday morning calling the GP was not an option so she called 111 to get some advice. After the usual set of questions they advised that she should be seen in A&E.

So we all got in the car, us and two young kids as she can't drive herself and it's not like you can leave children with anyone these days and off we headed to Southend Hospital. We really didn't want to risk us all going in, especially the kids so I dropped her off outside the entrance and she hobbled the~8m to the door while I parked up and waited.

The A&E department was actually shut, my wife was told that they don't open until 8:00am as she was clearly well enough to make her own way to hospital they wouldn't see her anyway, despite telling them that she had only come on the advice of the NHS 111 service.

No idea how common an occurrence this is, but there seems to be a massive disconnect between the NHS 111 service and hospitals, though we have had similar experiences before so it may just be this one. But if you have the government saying that people should still use the NHS as normal, the NHS referring people to A&e, but A&E departments are turning people away then of course this will show as a reduction in usage.

That’s ridiculous, happy to say the A&E at my nearest Hospital (Harrogate) is functioning (better than, due to fewer clients ) normally.

 

[cambsno]

Oh? And yet "

• Each year more than half (53%) of all cancer deaths in the UK are in people aged 75 and over (2015-2017)."

https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics-for-the-uk#collapseOne

Which seems to indicate the arguement for the wider picture being b******t.

Yes, because we are testing and people are getting treated... if people are not getting tested then they will not be getting treated and so more younger people will die!! :banghead:

According to cancer research, there are almost 5,500 cancer cases per year for women just in the 40-44 bracket alone! Now based on the evidence we have so far, Covid is unlikey to be anything more than feeling ill for a few weeks for that demographic. Not diagnosing the cancer will (I am guessing here) be fatal! Even a few months delay will cost some lives and these are people with young children.

But then you obviously know more than Chris Whitty who also talks about the wider picture!

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Be glad when the old codgers Ukulele classes start again

Just think of this as a bass ukulele...

 

[cambsno]

That’s ridiculous, happy to say the A&E at my nearest Hospital (Harrogate) is functioning (better than, due to fewer clients ) normally.

Brother in law has a couple of nurse friends and they have been telling him how quiet it is in the hospital they work at!

 

[Donnie]

Now based on the evidence we have so far, Covid is unlikey to be anything more than feeling ill for a few weeks for that demographic.

Oh my f*****g god you continue to cling to stupidity to justify your willingness to allow people to die based on an arbitrary thing such as age. Ok for the old cronies to die as they aren't productive anyway. Mind you, your comment on that age bracket includes 10% of all deaths so far in the UK from covid19! I don't think that "feeling ill for a few weeks" covers that particular symptom. :banghead::banghead:

 

[mex]

A CV-19 test has been developed with a 99% accuracy, ready the end of May ( for some).

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...Mf4MYFJXVMe_1UiR51ufYLWUcH3Cvj1IIfJHm1oB_sr9Q

 

[sphexx]

Brother in law has a couple of nurse friends and they have been telling him how quiet it is in the hospital they work at!

I don’t think we have many CV cases in Harrogate area (hard to tell because the distribution maps aren’t very granular so it’s lumped with N Yorkshire which is huge but has few cases last time I looked. Consequently they are all ’locked down’ but probably much less work — my guess, though.

 

[sphexx]

A CV-19 test has been developed with a 99% accuracy, ready the end of May ( for some).

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...Mf4MYFJXVMe_1UiR51ufYLWUcH3Cvj1IIfJHm1oB_sr9Q

Good news if it’s right though “it is expecting to have shipped millions of the laboratory based lab tests across Europe by the end of May” sounds good but “Europe” is undefined and the population of the E.U. alone is 400 (?) million so ”millions” might not be a lot. Tricky things numbers .

 

[bass_junkie83]

That’s ridiculous, happy to say the A&E at my nearest Hospital (Harrogate) is functioning (better than, due to fewer clients ) normally.

Yup. My wife said she could see a whole load of nurses in the closed A&E through the glass entrance doors standing around drinking tea and having a good old laugh. It seems to be taking the pee somewhat when those working on other wards are going flat out (I know a couple of nurses that have been drafted in from non-essential departments to work on the COVID wards and it sound like they are going through hell.)

 

[tijuana taxi]

When you don’t like the message, attack the messenger, works for Trump.

You seem almost as fascinated with Mr Trump as much as you are with this virus.
Why not take up a hobby, something like photography perhaps?

 

[Donnie]

Yup. My wife said she could see a whole load of nurses in the closed A&E through the glass entrance doors standing around drinking tea and having a good old laugh. It seems to be taking the pee somewhat when those working on other wards are going flat out (I know a couple of nurses that have been drafted in from non-essential departments to work on the COVID wards and it sound like they are going through hell.)

Could be one of the many reasons that their latest CQC visit says they require improvement!

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

It is only one anecdotal example, but we recently tried to use the NHS but were turned away.
My wife took a tumble and hurt her knee and after a couple of days rest was still no better. This being a Sunday morning calling the GP was not an option so she called 111 to get some advice. After the usual set of questions they advised that she should be seen in A&E.

So we all got in the car, us and two young kids as she can't drive herself and it's not like you can leave children with anyone these days and off we headed to Southend Hospital. We really didn't want to risk us all going in, especially the kids so I dropped her off outside the entrance and she hobbled the~8m to the door while I parked up and waited.

The A&E department was actually shut, my wife was told that they don't open until 8:00am as she was clearly well enough to make her own way to hospital they wouldn't see her anyway, despite telling them that she had only come on the advice of the NHS 111 service.

No idea how common an occurrence this is, but there seems to be a massive disconnect between the NHS 111 service and hospitals, though we have had similar experiences before so it may just be this one. But if you have the government saying that people should still use the NHS as normal, the NHS referring people to A&e, but A&E departments are turning people away then of course this will show as a reduction in usage.

Our A&E has split into two and you go through an additional triage, then there's one waiting room for those with COVID related symptoms and another waiting room for not. But we're in Norfolk and there's not many cases here in the scheme of things and the hospital is by all accounts pretty quiet.

 

[cambsno]

Oh my f*****g god you continue to cling to stupidity to justify your willingness to allow people to die based on an arbitrary thing such as age. Ok for the old cronies to die as they aren't productive anyway. Mind you, your comment on that age bracket includes 10% of all deaths so far in the UK from covid19! I don't think that "feeling ill for a few weeks" covers that particular symptom. :banghead::banghead:

No. In an ideal world we can save everyone, but we can't! We need to decide priorities and if we look to protect fully one group, another will suffer, unless you happen to have a magic wand. Even the CMO has said its about a balance!

Can you show me where 10% of all covid deaths have come from women in the 40-44 age group please as I don't think that can be correct, that was specifically the age group i mentioned in the 5,500 cancer diagnosis. (as if it was you would expect at least 10% or more to be in the 45-49 bracket and then over that in the 50-54 bracket...)

Now I am sure you are aware that cancer is a nasty thing and it kills a lot of people. I am happy to be corrected here, but if you don't diagnose cancer early enough it will kill you. Dare I say that if un-treated, cancer has a 100% mortality rate. So yes, even based on your numbers (which i think are incorrect), if 3,000 women aged 40-44 get Covid, 300 will die (I dispute your 10% but lets go with it), whereas if 3,000 women who would normally have been diagnosed with cancer dont get this diagnosed and treated quickly enough how many will die as a result (obviously a lot of factors here like type of cancer etc...) but we know that early screening and treatment saves lives!

And thats not to mention the 'hidden' deaths over the next 5-10 years as a result of a crashed economy.

 

[cambsno]

I don’t think we have many CV cases in Harrogate area (hard to tell because the distribution maps aren’t very granular so it’s lumped with N Yorkshire which is huge but has few cases last time I looked. Consequently they are all ’locked down’ but probably much less work — my guess, though.

I think one was in BSE in Suffolk so a bit out of the way in the sticks!

 

[mex]

Good news if it’s right though “it is expecting to have shipped millions of the laboratory based lab tests across Europe by the end of May” sounds good but “Europe” is undefined and the population of the E.U. alone is 400 (?) million so ”millions” might not be a lot. Tricky things numbers .

Hence my bracketing ' for some'.

 

[sphexx]

You seem almost as fascinated with Mr Trump as much as you are with this virus.
Why not take up a hobby, something like photography perhaps?

I thought you’d gone?
Edit to say: Why don’t you take up reeling comprehension, as in “Reeling and Writhing of course, to begin with,' the Mock Turtle replied, 'and the different branches of arithmetic-ambition, distraction, uglification, and derision.” . I can see doing well at long derision .