The virus. PPE. Part 1

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AndrewFlannigan said:
Unfortunately, in my opinion there were also really important missed opportunities, The worst mistake he made was throwing Barbara Castle's "In Place of Strife" out of the sleigh at the first bark from the trade unions. If he'd backed it we almost certainly wouldn't have had the miners' strike and in all probability we wouldn't have had Margaret Thatcher's monetarist obsession. The NHS would most likely not have suffered the death by a thousand cuts inflicted by way of the "internal market" and we would be in a far stronger position to deal with the current situation.

You might guess from the above that I'm not a Wilson fan. :coat:
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Nobody’s perfect :). Telling the Rhodesians he wouldn’t use force is another one though It was rumoured the RAF wouldn’t do it (so many Rhodesian settlers were ex-RAF), A bit similar to Thatcher& Falklands :(.
 
nilagin said:
I believe managed to keep a very low infection and death rate. Many states are now beginning to ease their lockdowns.
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True - death rate per thousand/million of population are lower than UK, France/Spain/Italy/Belgium last time I looked - obviously there are many more data points and factors to be considered, not least the fact we are more heavily populated.
 
mex said:
An interesting read here:

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/coronavirus-vietnam-quarantine-mobilization/
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Very interesting. I read an account by two Western tourists (probably the same two mentioned in the article)who had contact (on the plane from Italy?)with the infected person mentioned in the article who described their quarantining as very swift, a bit brutal but fair, to a disused hospital/hotel, somewhat insanitary conditions and later moved to a better place. Seems to chime with the article.
 
sphexx said:
”NHS warns of rise in children with new illness that may be linked to coronavirus”. Very small numbers and may not be linked to CV19
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Wouldn't it be better to do the research first before spreading yet more paranoia ?
Is every possibly new virus going to be caused by CV19 ?
 
Fuji Dave said:
Like I said, IF it did come from china folk should be angry with them. I did NOT mention bats at all.
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Well no, but that's where the virus is likely to have originated from. Probably a bat in China given the location of the initial outbreak.

Angry with China if they manufactured it, sure. But they didn't, so..
 
Gremlin said:
Wouldn't it be better to do the research first before spreading yet more paranoia ?
Is every possibly new virus going to be caused by CV19 ?
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Are you asking me? I don't have control over the NHS!

What do you mean by “more research”? This is NHS commencing research by asking if there are more similar cases.

I don't know how they do this with possible new pathogens but I expect they get alerts from doctors and if there are enough of them it sparks a request to all doctors to look out for the signs. It has the risk of finding more than there are.

That would be basically what China should have done when there were first reports of a novel virus. Maybe you prefer the PDRC method?
 
sphexx said:
This is NHS commencing research by asking if there are more similar cases.
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So are you saying this is an appeal to the public to report their children have a stomach ache ?
Why is there a need to report it in a national newspaper otherwise ?

Yes it is tragic but I don't see why it has to "maybe" be linked to CV19 at this early stage
 
Gremlin said:
So are you saying this is an appeal to the public to report their children have a stomach ache ?
Why is there a need to report it in a national newspaper otherwise ?

Yes it is tragic but I don't see why it has to "maybe" be linked to CV19 at this early stage
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In the public interest, it’s the function of the Press. Think, if it turns out that there is a new disease (particularly of children, because people tend not to think they are expendable) and it leaks out, as it will, before it is publicly announced then there will be a hue and cry, accusations of cover-up and Ministerial resignations :(.
 
Gremlin said:
So are you saying this is an appeal to the public to report their children have a stomach ache ?
Why is there a need to report it in a national newspaper otherwise ?

Yes it is tragic but I don't see why it has to "maybe" be linked to CV19 at this early stage
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It was information intended for medical professionals rather than an appeal to the public, but it ended up getting shared on social media and was picked up by the press. In some cases SARS-CoV-2 was detected, and in others, where the test for a current infection was negative, there were antibodies that indicated a previous infection. NHS England are naturally concerned about this and are asking doctors to look out for further cases so they can get a clearer picture of what is happening.
 
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AndrewFlannigan said:
So at least some good will come of it... :naughty: :coat:
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Though useless as most of them are, we have too many resignations over peccadillos that do not affect the job and too few that do ... and should result in the prison terms they are fond of offering to others :cool:
 
sphexx said:
In the public interest, it’s the function of the Press. Think, if it turns out that there is a new disease (particularly of children, because people tend not to think they are expendable) and it leaks out, as it will, before it is publicly announced then there will be a hue and cry, accusations of cover-up and Ministerial resignations
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I appreciate that, but my point is, are we now going to blame every new infection on CV19 be fore it has been proven ?
By all means report a new infection attacking children but not put the blame on something that is not known
 
Good idea this but let's extend it to all front line workers

*The families of NHS and social care workers who have lost loved ones to coronavirus will be entitled to a £60,000 payment.

*The special life assurance scheme will apply to foreign workers and those who have returned from retirement.
 
Gremlin said:
Wouldn't it be better to do the research first before spreading yet more paranoia ?
Is every possibly new virus going to be caused by CV19 ?
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Fuji Dave said:
Here it is.

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/18408359.coronavirus-uk-urgent-nhs-alert-issued-children/
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The original Guardian article had details ... the Argus one does not.

"Most of the children affected have Kawasaki disease, a rare vascular condition that is the main cause of acquired heart disease in under-18s in the UK. These cases happen when someone with Kawasaki disease gets Covid-19 and that produces complications,” said one NHS source.

Not a new virus at all, but highlighting the underlying health issues that affect very few! More journalistic scaremongering.:rolleyes:
 
Tigger.ufo said:
The original Guardian article had details ... the Argus one does not.

"Most of the children affected have Kawasaki disease, a rare vascular condition that is the main cause of acquired heart disease in under-18s in the UK. These cases happen when someone with Kawasaki disease gets Covid-19 and that produces complications,” said one NHS source.

Not a new virus at all, but highlighting the underlying health issues that affect very few! More journalistic scaremongering.:rolleyes:
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I think you will find the paper DOES mention Kawasaki disease, plus also says some did not prove to have the virus (y)
 
Fuji Dave said:
I think you will find the paper DOES mention Kawasaki disease, plus also says some did not prove to have the virus (y)
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Yes it does mention it ... but only just.

"Doctors have compared the mysterious condition to toxic shock syndrome and Kawasaki disease which, combined, cause harmful internal swelling, fever and breathing problems - all hallmark signs of COVID-19."

... and sure enough also does say ...


"But some of the children presenting with the illness have tested negative for the coronavirus, further complicating the diagnosis and raising questions that another pathogen could be behind the condition."

... without bothering to mention that some adults being treated for Covid-19 also test negative! :rolleyes:
 
UBI was discussed earlier in the thread:
““We may have to think in terms of some different ways to put money in people’s pockets,” Pelosi said on MSNBC. “Others have suggested a minimum income, a guaranteed income for people. Is that worthy of attention now? Perhaps so.”
A number of Democrats in the House and Senate have advanced proposals that would ensure a guaranteed paycheck for workers impacted by the coronavirus. These include a plan by Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), co-chair of the Progressive Caucus, that would create a three-month federal guarantee for 100 percent of worker salaries of up to $100,000. Pelosi’s comments suggested she was open to such an approach.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-p...il&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_tyh&wpmk=1
 
sphexx said:
Others have suggested a minimum income, a guaranteed income for people. Is that worthy of attention now? Perhaps so.”
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I have hopes that this event is the pivot around which the world will swing away from monetarism. My own view is that we need both socialism and capitalism working together in proper balance.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I have hopes that this event is the pivot around which the world will swing away from monetarism. My own view is that we need both socialism and capitalism working together in proper balance.
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We do and that is the million dollar question - how? Its so hard getting that balance, only Scandanvian countries seem to have some of this, bit every other country pretty much is too much one way or the other.
 
cambsno said:
We do and that is the million dollar question - how?
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Perhaps the first step is to campaign for a law requiring accuracy in all forms of publication?

I'm convinced that it's the absence of such a law that has brought us to the current situation, where the public expect politicians to lie. I don't see how we can progress until we can trust those we elect to run things on our behalf.
 
Retune said:
I think China has something like that. Anything critical of the Communist Party is automatically classed as dangerously inaccurate!
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Nearly right, nowadays it’s anything in conflict with the Thoughts of President Xi :) & :(
 
China has never presented itself as a democracy. For 4,000 years it was a dynastic monarchy. From 1912 to 1949 it was a autocratic republic and since 1949 it has been a single party republic. China's Gini Coefficient for 2016 was 0.385. In the same year that of the UK was 0.348 while that of the US was 0.414. China is moving along a quite different path to the western democracies and has come from a very different starting point.
 
It would seem from the latest reported hospital deaths plus the care home deaths now beginning to be 'available' to the general public that the total UK deaths
attributable to covid-19 is way in excess of 30,000. While there is obviously going to be discrepancies due to the gathering of the data it is reported that the
higher death totals we were reading in France, Spain and Italy were including care home deaths. It now looks as if the UK probably has the highest death rate in the World after the USA ?
In the Governments haste to "Protect the NHS" (their words) have they 'accepted' the high mortality rate? and thrown the care homes 'under the bus' ?
This Government has been in power and therefore custodians of the NHS for 10 years. When their handling of this pandemic is analysed I surmise that they cannot
afford to have the failings of an inadequate NHS held responsible in any way. This would surely be the death (sic) knell of this government,

Discuss.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
China has never presented itself as a democracy. For 4,000 years it was a dynastic monarchy. From 1912 to 1949 it was a autocratic republic and since 1949 it has been a single party republic. China's Gini Coefficient for 2016 was 0.385. In the same year that of the UK was 0.348 while that of the US was 0.414. China is moving along a quite different path to the western democracies and has come from a very different starting point.
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Not dissenting from your description but “People’s” in PRC does tend to claim some “democratic” credibility, else why include it?

However, the same can be said for U.K. (Constitutional Monarchy), USA (Constitutional Republic , and in no way democratic :() and so on. They use the word a lot but it’s largely meaningless, the real difference has been (till now) that we (UK, USA, Taiwan, etc) have the Rule of Law :).
 
Well I've just re-watched last nights panorama programme, if even half of what they stated is true it's a damming indictment on the government and goes some way to explaining the PPE fiasco.
 
badlywornroy said:
It would seem from the latest reported hospital deaths plus the care home deaths now beginning to be 'available' to the general public that the total UK deaths
attributable to covid-19 is way in excess of 30,000. While there is obviously going to be discrepancies due to the gathering of the data it is reported that the
higher death totals we were reading in France, Spain and Italy were including care home deaths. It now looks as if the UK probably has the highest death rate in the World after the USA ?
In the Governments haste to "Protect the NHS" (their words) have they 'accepted' the high mortality rate? and thrown the care homes 'under the bus' ?
This Government has been in power and therefore custodians of the NHS for 10 years. When their handling of this pandemic is analysed I surmise that they cannot
afford to have the failings of an inadequate NHS held responsible in any way. This would surely be the death (sic) knell of this government,

Discuss.
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Possibly but that is too simplistic an argument. You need to study the deaths in more detail and understand who died and why. The problem is that a care home will have by nature, old people with health conditions, so if they get it they will (probably) die. The key question is how many of these deaths would have occured without covid-19? Some of these people would have been in poor health and died over the coming weeks or months anyway. The slightest thing could kill, from a cold, to flu, or any other trivial ailment.

I guess the only way you can protect a care home is to lock it down to all visitors, and that the staff are tested every time they turn up for work (although IIRC up till recently tests would take 24/48 hours to come back) and even then, have to wear full PPE. The downside to that would be, this would have to stay in some form or another for 18 months till we get a vaccine, and then you have a quality of life issue for the residents - basically you know you may not have long to live and you spend your final months effectively in isolation from family and friends. That would probably see people just giving up on life. Very hard balance to get right
 
sphexx said:
Not dissenting from your description but “People’s” in PRC does tend to claim some “democratic” credibility, else why include it?
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Because the Communist Party's professed aim is to create a social organisation in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.
sphexx said:
the real difference has been (till now) that we (UK, USA, Taiwan, etc) have the Rule of Law.
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From what I can tell the PRC believes very strongly in the rule of law. The big difference is that Communism starts from the proposal that there can only be one form of government and that every citizen must participate in it. This has a tendency to mutate into personality cults - unlike the western style democracies which are always personality based!
 
cambsno said:
The slightest thing could kill, from a cold, to flu, or any other trivial ailment.
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(my emphasis)
Just to pick you up on “flu”, if you mean influenza, it’s not a trivial illness, speaking as someone who had when aged 20, along with many other fit and young, male (mostly)servicemen.

Unfortunately people have either become used to mild versions or they use ”a touch of the flu” to mean they feeling a bit unwell.

This had real effect probably when Trump characterised CV19 as being only like flu.

(Hobbyhorse satisfied :))
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Because the Communist Party's professed aim is to create a social organisation in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.
From what I can tell the PRC believes very strongly in the rule of law. The big difference is that Communism starts from the proposal that there can only be one form of government and that every citizen must participate in it. This has a tendency to mutate into personality cults - unlike the western style democracies which are always personality based!
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I disagree that PRC believes in the rule of law, there are laws of course but the application is controlled by the Party. However, it’s a big, diverse country and the ordinary Chinese are a feisty lot so nothing’s really clear cut :)
 
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