The virus. PPE. Part 1

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jonbeeza said:
Barbour, is to make PPE gowns. I wonder how much they will be, compared to ones made in China?
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The way I heard it yesterday, they gave the impression, they are free.
At least they'll be water-proof :D
 
badlywornroy said:
. . . .If this has been discussed tell me and I will remove the post. . . . .

90% of the World has travel restrictions. Many countries have closed their borders and banned incoming flights. The remainder have quarantine regulations on incoming passengers.

The UK response ? zilch/nada/nix i.e no restrictions. 15,000 people a day are travelling into UK airports without any checks and thereafter travelling onward to their final destinations. Many are UK citizens returning home.

Why am I (we) continuing to be asked to adhere to 'lockdown' and being potentially fined for making 'unnecessary' travel when the 'horse is escaping through the open barn door' at UK airports ?

Why is this not the lead story on UK news bulletins ?
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Notice how the government ha be us bickering about people going out for exercise and what merits essential yet the NHS barely has enough PPE and these airport’issues’??? When we analyse this it will be all the fault of us and the odd person having a family bbq!!
 
nilagin said:
The way ventilators are being used, maybe doing more harm than good.
View: https://youtu.be/k9GYTc53r2o

Other doctors around the world are of a similar opinion.
https://time.com/5820556/ventilators-covid-19/
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It’s a new disease though, it’s likely that treatments will change over time as medics learn more about what works and what doesn’t. Doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re they’re* doing anything wrong at the start.

I’m always wary of anything US doctors say as there are so many quacks there (not saying true in this case, just in general) as it’s a money driven market and lots of people have no or little health insurance.

I read a hearing aid forum and I’m struck by how many say that for years they struggled to get a hearing aid for financial reasons — I mean, of any kind, not some particular expensive private one, though of course they all ‘private’s there :(.

* Edit: typo, they‘re not we’re :(
 
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jonbeeza said:
Just saw on the news this morning, the famous outdoor clothing company Barbour, is to make PPE gowns. I wonder how much they will be, compared to ones made in China? Maybe they will last longer, and give better protection.
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From the news article i say it looks like the exact same material to be fair. They expect to make 23,000 in 3 weeks.
However, I think at last nights briefing the figure of covid positive patients in hospital yesterday was about 8000? So, at a rough guess thats about 72 hours worth at the front line?
 
According to Radio 4 this morning: the House of Lords is showing the true British Spirit. Some members are demanding their £300 per day for logging into virtual debates from home...

"I'm all right Jack and sod you", eh? :thinking:
 
ancient_mariner said:
Yes, it was. AFAIK the idea was people would be willing to take a job knowing they weren't dependant on it, but instead they preferred not to work. :rolleyes:


...
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Can you draw that conclusion from the Finland experiment. From my - admittedly brief - reading, the group were as likely to to find a new job as those not receiving UBI?
 
sphexx said:
It’s a new disease though, it’s likely that treatments will change over time as medics learn more about what works and what doesn’t. Doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re doing anything wrong at the start.

I’m always wary of anything US doctors say as there are so many quacks there (not saying true in this case, just in general) as it’s a money driven market and lots of people have no or little health insurance.

I read a hearing aid forum and I’m struck by how many say that for years they struggled to get a hearing aid for financial reasons — I mean, of any kind, not some particular expensive private one, though of course they all ‘private’s there :(.
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Yes indeed, it's a brand new disease that is overwhelming most health systems, no doubt about that and this guy is possibly a mixture of being right, a quack or naive.

He may be right in that some patients are being put on ventilators early, but he expects everyone is a respiratory specialist and in the current situation there are many many doctors that do not have the experience required to deal with this disease as the numbers simply do not exist. Redeployment means that some of these doctors are ones that are junior being pushed into areas they have limited knowledge or seniors that normally work in other departments, anaesthetists, medical consultants, haematologists etc etc and they rely on staff (nursing staff) with experience of nursing ventilated patients etc but again, limited numbers etc.

In the end what this means is that there may be some patients put on vents too early but that's not what does the damage. What does the damage to the lungs (if you ignore the biological damage from the covid 19 itself is usually either due to the lungs being under too much pressure from the ventilator (barotrauma) or too much volume per breath (barotrauma). Again one of the biggest influence on both of those is monitoring by experienced staff but Ive already covered that.

Additionally, that doctor is obfuscating the facts as while covid19 is a disease in and of itself, he's wrong that the wrong disease is being treated so it's quite a self aggrandising video in my opinion.

It's been repeated several times that there IS NO TREATMENT for covid19, there is none. So all you can do is treat the symptoms until your body, your immune system (hopefully) beats it. Part of the treatment option is ventilation and that is used when the virus gets to a point where its causing fluid build up in the air sacs (alveoli) of the lungs and is restricting the passage of oxygen. THIS is Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS) so to say Drs are treating the wrong thing is simply daft.
 
Rapscallion said:
Can you draw that conclusion from the Finland experiment. From my - admittedly brief - reading, the group were as likely to to find a new job as those not receiving UBI?
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I think I’ve already said this but I do puzzle over why people are quite relaxed about giving thousands, millions even to the rich yet balk at a few quid for the ‘poor’. I think it may be a version of Parkinson’s Law about committees & bike sheds :(.
You will probably have read how Trump is funnelling the funds to big business friends in USA :(
 
jonbeeza said:
Just saw on the news this morning, the famous outdoor clothing company Barbour, is to make PPE gowns. I wonder how much they will be, compared to ones made in China? Maybe they will last longer, and give better protection.
Click to expand...

i thought Barbour moved production to China a few years ago anyway?
 
Donnie said:
Yes indeed, it's a brand new disease that is overwhelming most health systems, no doubt about that and this guy is possibly a mixture of being right, a quack or naive.

He may be right in that some patients are being put on ventilators early, but he expects everyone is a respiratory specialist and in the current situation there are many many doctors that do not have the experience required to deal with this disease as the numbers simply do not exist. Redeployment means that some of these doctors are ones that are junior being pushed into areas they have limited knowledge or seniors that normally work in other departments, anaesthetists, medical consultants, haematologists etc etc and they rely on staff (nursing staff) with experience of nursing ventilated patients etc but again, limited numbers etc.

In the end what this means is that there may be some patients put on vents too early but that's not what does the damage. What does the damage to the lungs (if you ignore the biological damage from the covid 19 itself is usually either due to the lungs being under too much pressure from the ventilator (barotrauma) or too much volume per breath (barotrauma). Again one of the biggest influence on both of those is monitoring by experienced staff but Ive already covered that.

Additionally, that doctor is obfuscating the facts as while covid19 is a disease in and of itself, he's wrong that the wrong disease is being treated so it's quite a self aggrandising video in my opinion.

It's been repeated several times that there IS NO TREATMENT for covid19, there is none. So all you can do is treat the symptoms until your body, your immune system (hopefully) beats it. Part of the treatment option is ventilation and that is used when the virus gets to a point where its causing fluid build up in the air sacs (alveoli) of the lungs and is restricting the passage of oxygen. THIS is Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS) so to say Drs are treating the wrong thing is simply daft.
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Seems a few doctors disagree with you.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-saving-ventilators-actually-deathtraps.html
 
Retune said:
South Korea is a democracy, and heard about the virus the same day everybody else did. They have not yet resorted to lockdowns, but have done a huge amount of testing, tracking and tracing right from the start, successfully suppressing a significant outbreak. They have a population the size of England, but only 230 deaths.
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Yes, SK is to be commended.
The population is actually about 10 million less than England, but the population density is nearly twice that of England which creates the possibility of a faster virus spread.
Interesting article here:-
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/south-korea-covid-19-containment-testing/
I have read elsewhere that they had a track and trace system in place.
South Korea was on the starting blocks ready for the off.
 
badlywornroy said:
90% of the World has travel restrictions. Many countries have closed their borders and banned incoming flights. The remainder have quarantine regulations on incoming passengers.

The UK response ? zilch/nada/nix i.e no restrictions. 15,000 people a day are travelling into UK airports without any checks and thereafter travelling onward to their final destinations. Many are UK citizens returning home.
Click to expand...

It's a bit late to worry about infections coming in from abroad. There aren't many places in the world that have a worse problem than we do. We are already ranked 5th of all countries in terms of numbers of deaths and deaths per capita by the official statistics, and we aren't counting deaths in the community. Countries like China now have to worry about importing cases from us.
 
badlywornroy said:
. . . .If this has been discussed tell me and I will remove the post. . . . .

90% of the World has travel restrictions. Many countries have closed their borders and banned incoming flights. The remainder have quarantine regulations on incoming passengers.

The UK response ? zilch/nada/nix i.e no restrictions. 15,000 people a day are travelling into UK airports without any checks and thereafter travelling onward to their final destinations. Many are UK citizens returning home.

Why am I (we) continuing to be asked to adhere to 'lockdown' and being potentially fined for making 'unnecessary' travel when the 'horse is escaping through the open barn door' at UK airports ?

Why is this not the lead story on UK news bulletins ?

Quote
The approach may be turning Britain into a refuge for some travellers. “We've seen a very big increase in the number of super yachts coming to the UK to berth because they cannot enter ports in the Mediterranean,” said Anne Carson, owner of Super Yacht Services Falmouth. “I would say there have been 20 or more in the last few weeks alone, which is very high for this time of year.”
Unquote
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Nick Ferrari has mentioned this on LBC many, many times. Like a lot of us he finds it incomprehensible. It has been raised a few times at the Downing St. briefings and the response has always been that the "scientists maintain that it is of no significance." I am dumbfounded by that response.
Thousands arrive by air unchecked, 3000 football fans from Spain arrived in Liverpool, thousands attend race meetings for several days at Cheltenham, hundreds were packed on to Waterloo Bridge on Thursday evening whilst the rest of us have to maintain 2 metre separation etc. etc.
Some very cockeyed thinking going on.
 
boyfalldown said:
Really? I’m was sure mine was made in China. Learn something new every day
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From their website:

"Although we source products from around the globe, Barbour's classic wax jackets are still manufactured by hand in the factory in Simonside"

There was a recent programme on the telly about them, the waxed cloth is made in Scotland, and the jackets made in England.
 
arclight said:
Yes, SK is to be commended.
The population is actually about 10 million less than England, but the population density is nearly twice that of England which creates the possibility of a faster virus spread.
Interesting article here:-
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/south-korea-covid-19-containment-testing/
I have read elsewhere that they had a track and trace system in place.
South Korea was on the starting blocks ready for the off.
Click to expand...
England is about 56 million, South Korea about 51.7 (Wikipedia figures). But of course the whole of the UK is larger, so the total UK/SK population ratio is about 1.3. The Coronavirus death ratio is >60 and rising. Interesting article - proper organisation, a clear strategy from the start, not giving up on track and trace when cases rose into the thousands, and complete transparency. None of which have been true in the UK.
 
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nilagin said:
Seems a few doctors disagree with you.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-saving-ventilators-actually-deathtraps.html
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I wouldn't normally bother replying to anything from the Daily Mail mainly as it usually espouses s***e of the highest order and cherry picks its "facts".

I hoped maybe you'd found something that could change my mind, I was wrong.

they (as the american doctor does) talk of the high death rate of those on ventilators and they say it's doing more harm than good, and they base that on real data, but what they also do is choose the data that suits them which is confirmation bias.
For example they are saying "put on vents too early" and "causing more harm than good" from the data surrounding those covid positive patients that have died that were put on vents in the first 24 hours. However, notwithstanding my previous post re inexperience of a minority, the majority of those covid positive patients that have progressed to a state of needing ventilation are at a point where they simply cannot get oxygen into the bloodstream without it, the option is certain death.

So, yes, looking at the data where covid patients are put on vents within 24 hours as they NEED it or die, these are already severely compromised patients presenting with late stage disease where ventilation is almost literally "do or die" and by that very nature, and the fact there is NO treatment currently for covid the death figures of patients put on vents within 24hrs is going to be high.

Then don't get me started on the stupid comparisons between patient presentation and looking like theyve been put on the top of everest or carbon monoxide poisoning :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
badlywornroy said:
. . . .If this has been discussed tell me and I will remove the post. . . . .

90% of the World has travel restrictions. Many countries have closed their borders and banned incoming flights. The remainder have quarantine regulations on incoming passengers.

The UK response ? zilch/nada/nix i.e no restrictions. 15,000 people a day are travelling into UK airports without any checks and thereafter travelling onward to their final destinations. Many are UK citizens returning home.

Why am I (we) continuing to be asked to adhere to 'lockdown' and being potentially fined for making 'unnecessary' travel when the 'horse is escaping through the open barn door' at UK airports ?

Why is this not the lead story on UK news bulletins ?

Quote
The approach may be turning Britain into a refuge for some travellers. “We've seen a very big increase in the number of super yachts coming to the UK to berth because they cannot enter ports in the Mediterranean,” said Anne Carson, owner of Super Yacht Services Falmouth. “I would say there have been 20 or more in the last few weeks alone, which is very high for this time of year.”
Unquote
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Agree. It should have happened long but I can't see it happening now.

Additionally it took too long for sporting events to be cancelled. The opinion that outdoor events posed very little risk seem ludicrous to me given that people meet up and travle in cars, trains, tubes, buses to such events.

Dave
 
Tringa said:
Agree. It should have happened long but I can't see it happening now.

Additionally it took too long for sporting events to be cancelled. The opinion that outdoor events posed very little risk seem ludicrous to me given that people meet up and travle in cars, trains, tubes, buses to such events.

Dave
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Yep, Im aware of a family locally that have lost 3 members of the family, all of which were at Cheltenham and developed symptoms within 4-5 days.
 
Donnie said:
Then don't get me started on the stupid comparisons between patient presentation and looking like theyve been put on the top of everest or carbon monoxide poisoning :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
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https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30127-2/fulltext
"Before endotracheal intubation, it is important to consider a trial of high-flow nasal oxygen for patients with moderately severe hypoxaemia. "

Some of the most common causes of hypoxemia include: Heart conditions, including heart defects. Lung conditions such as asthma, emphysema, and bronchitis. Locations of high altitudes, where oxygen in the air is lower.
 
nilagin said:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30127-2/fulltext
"Before endotracheal intubation, it is important to consider a trial of high-flow nasal oxygen for patients with moderately severe hypoxaemia. "

Some of the most common causes of hypoxemia include: Heart conditions, including heart defects. Lung conditions such as asthma, emphysema, and bronchitis. Locations of high altitudes, where oxygen in the air is lower.
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youve stated what exactly, that clinicians should trial non invasive forms of oxygen therapy which include high flow and CPAP?
that's standard practice.

Also I know what the causes of hypoxaemia are so I have no idea what you are trying to say.
 
Still all this argument over different treatment strategies of a condition that wasn’t known about six months ago makes a nice change from the normal media warnings over doctor A’s research warning bacon, red meat, red wine, eggs, salt, sugar, fat, dairy, etc etc being bad for x, y, z every few days...doctor B then saying nah that risk is over exaggerated see my research...
 
Donnie said:
Yep, Im aware of a family locally that have lost 3 members of the family, all of which were at Cheltenham and developed symptoms within 4-5 days.
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I’ve never been to ‘Cheltenham’ but I would guess, from people I know who do, that there a lot of handshaking, hugging and passing of hip flasks etc. :)
 
myotis said:
From their website:

"Although we source products from around the globe, Barbour's classic wax jackets are still manufactured by hand in the factory in Simonside"

There was a recent programme on the telly about them, the waxed cloth is made in Scotland, and the jackets made in England.
Click to expand...
Yes, and Barbour make market a lot of non-waxed stuff like fleeces etc that are probably from China.
 
Donnie said:
youve stated what exactly, that clinicians should trial non invasive forms of oxygen therapy which include high flow and CPAP?
that's standard practice.

Also I know what the causes of hypoxaemia are so I have no idea what you are trying to say.
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Well let's see shall we.
First you diss the video that I posted of an American doctors thoughts of how COVID 19 patients should be treated.(Probably because I posted it)
Then I provide evidence of German, Italian and English doctors of the same opinion as the American Doctor, but because it is in the Daily Mail (and because I posted it) it's rubbish.
Then I provide a link to the Lancet on treating COVID19 patients and suddenly it isn't rubbish and you say it is standard practice.
That is the second time you have tried to s*** all over something I have posted saying it is rubbish and then comeback with saying it is already standard practice.

Unbelievable in most circumstances, in yours, becoming more and more expected.
 
jakeblu said:
There's very little evidence that travel bans are effective in controlling the spread of a virus,
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I read that article as reporting there is no evidence for or against travel bans and that such research should be given a high priority.
 
jakeblu said:
There's very little evidence that travel bans are effective in controlling the spread of a virus, at best travel bans may slow its spread for days or possible weeks. It seems a knee jerk reaction that has very little benefit and plenty of negatives.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200213175923.htm
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Interesting account but the conclusion is that it is not known if travel bans are effective(first para) and more research is needed(second and last para).

Given that Covid19 does not appear to be airborne over anything other than relatively short distances, travel bans should stop the spread. However, I think, and this is based on no knowledge whatsoever, that travel bans might not be effective because by the time we know there is a problem it is too late for a travel ban to have an effect.

Dave
 
sphexx said:
Yes, and Barbour make market a lot of non-waxed stuff like fleeces etc that are probably from China.
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My search found mention of manufacturing in Turkey, Portugal, Bulgaria and "another" firm in the UK. (from the telegraph).
 
Tringa said:
Interesting account but the conclusion is that it is not known if travel bans are effective(first para) and more research is needed(second and last para).

Given that Covid19 does not appear to be airborne over anything other than relatively short distances, travel bans should stop the spread. However, I think, and this is based on no knowledge whatsoever, that travel bans might not be effective because by the time we know there is a problem it is too late for a travel ban to have an effect.

Dave
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You missed out this paragraph :)

"Some of the evidence suggests that a travel ban may delay the arrival of an infectious disease in a country by days or weeks. However, there is very little evidence to suggest that a travel ban eliminates the risk of the disease crossing borders in the long term," said Errett, co-director of the ColLABorative on Extreme Event Resilience, a research lab focused on addressing real-world issues relevant to community resilience.
 
jakeblu said:
There's very little evidence that travel bans are effective in controlling the spread of a virus, at best travel bans may slow its spread for days or possible weeks. It seems a knee jerk reaction that has very little benefit and plenty of negatives.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200213175923.htm
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Well, I think a complete travel ban would stop spread but difficult/impossible to implement but I think the main complaint is not testing and then following up/tracing people after they arrive. Granted our system of non registration (identity cards, town of residence etc) makes it difficult. Originally (pre ? 1950) this worked well because we’re an island and there was only limited travel/migration. Doesn’t work now :( but the mindset persists, especially in the Conservative party :(.
 
Rapscallion said:
Can you draw that conclusion from the Finland experiment. From my - admittedly brief - reading, the group were as likely to to find a new job as those not receiving UBI?
Click to expand...

The way I understood the report was that the 'success' criteria were for the unemployed to find work compared with those on conventional benefits, enabled by the UBI to take a job they might have otherwise considered unsuitable (inadequate pay, too junior position etc). It seems that offering UBI made no difference in this respect, so was considered a failure.

I like the idea of a subsistence UBI that would ensure every person in the country received enough money to house them, cloth them and put food on the table to a minimal humane standard and no questions asked. In addition to the problems of opportunism from those that supply housing etc, some people will manage very well while others will render themselves destitute and force their children into severe hardship.
 
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