The virus. PPE. Part 1

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cambsno said:
But they always will! They are no different to you or me, they will make mistakes and stuff they do or don’t do will cause harm and distress. No wonder politicians try to cover up or don’t answer the question- because if they admit a mistake or get something wrong they are chastised.
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I always thought that taking responsibility went with the job. If you are in charge at what ever level the responsibility is with you, that's why you took the job in the first place, to be in charge to be responsible for the decision making and if you make the wrong decisions then it is your responsibility to correct it not deny it, learn from your mistakes. The problem we have is that these people are not leaders, they continually look for scapegoats and to deflect blame the buck does not stop with them it is always someone else's fault.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Matt Hancock also said that some of the Frontline NHS staff who've died, might've contracted it away from work, so PPE wouldn't have helped.

Would've stopped them spreading it to other people though wouldn't it you absolute nob?

Sadly today we will pass the 10000 dead mark. But Boris is ok, and that's all the papers will talk about.
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I think recall in, at least, one case of a doctor that died that he went from being well to critically ill so quickly....... reference was made to the "viral load" that he was likely to have been exposed to and such is high risk in hospital and low in the wider environment!

As for Hancock's statement, surely that infers a failure in full & ongoing comprehensive testing of NHS workers!!!
 
Box Brownie said:
As for Hancock's statement, surely that infers a failure in full & ongoing comprehensive testing of NHS workers!!!
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I would have thought it infers a failure of his limited intellect. :(
 
KitsuneAndy said:
If it was inevitable, then we should have been looking at ramping up production months ago. Not when it's already needed.
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Existing manufacturers would have ramped up their own production automatically.
 
nilagin said:
Existing manufacturers would have ramped up their own production automatically.
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But was not the UK manufacturing limited to non existent i.e. almost all PPE came from China. The origins of such a skewed supply channel was cost........so much UK manufacturing has been exported and Covid19 has exposed the risk of (globally?) the reliance of too much cost lead purchasing vs treating some goods/materials as "strategic".
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Matt Hancock also said that some of the Frontline NHS staff who've died, might've contracted it away from work, so PPE wouldn't have helped.

Would've stopped them spreading it to other people though wouldn't it you absolute nob?

Sadly today we will pass the 10000 dead mark. But Boris is ok, and that's all the papers will talk about.
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Hancock is totally clueless. Saying that trained health professionals are misusing equipment, disagree with BMA and now the welcome trust director is saying that we will be worst hit in Europe due to lack of testing and tracing.

We know this is unprecedented and a global issue, but rather than make out they know what they are doing the government should admit to mistakes and take a proper look at things. Unless this is a ruse to make the economy be in a worse position so the Brexit no deal has not impact!!!
 
jakeblu said:
I'm no fan of Johnson, a Trump lite character and egocentric opportunist, but if he'd have died, it would have been pretty disastrous for the country. I don't think we've had a death of a serving Prime Minister in living memory.
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It wouldn’t, it would have been a blessing long term. Well, depends on who would have taken over full time, if Raab then it could have been even worse, but if someone More moderate took over then it would be far better.
 
cambsno said:
Hancock is totally clueless. Saying that trained health professionals are misusing equipment, disagree with BMA and now the welcome trust director is saying that we will be worst hit in Europe due to lack of testing and tracing.

We know this is unprecedented and a global issue, but rather than make out they know what they are doing the government should admit to mistakes and take a proper look at things. Unless this is a ruse to make the economy be in a worse position so the Brexit no deal has not impact!!!
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They're still not wavering on their "must be done by end of 2020" on Brexit either. Despite the fact the EU won't even talk to us about it right now, because they have more important things to deal with.
 
Box Brownie said:
But was not the UK manufacturing limited to non existent i.e. almost all PPE came from China. The origins of such a skewed supply channel was cost........so much UK manufacturing has been exported and Covid19 has exposed the risk of (globally?) the reliance of too much cost lead purchasing vs treating some goods/materials as "strategic".
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If indeed it all comes from China, in the past the government, would have been chastised for wasting money buying more expensive PPE.
Amazing that all the people on here, blaming the government for lack of PPE, mentioning all the TV programs, whinging about this and that, yet not one has mentioned the doctor, that was interviewed at home by the BBC, who happened to mention that they have no problems with the amount of PPE in the hospital he works at.
I would imagine each and every hospital in the UK, just like any other country, is responsible for ordering their own PPE, perhaps some are better at it than others .
 
cambsno said:
It wouldn’t, it would have been a blessing long term. Well, depends on who would have taken over full time, if Raab then it could have been even worse, but if someone More moderate took over then it would be far better.
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Is there a more moderate person in the cabinet or even the parliamentary party?

It seems as if all those of a moderate disposition where disposed of in the great purge of competent Tories.
 
cambsno said:
But they always will! They are no different to you or me, they will make mistakes and stuff they do or don’t do will cause harm and distress. No wonder politicians try to cover up or don’t answer the question- because if they admit a mistake or get something wrong they are chastised.
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I note in your worry for politicians welfare you ignore the bit i said about death.

KitsuneAndy said:
The biggest issue for me, was the complete non-apology. While also stating that the demand for PPE was "inevitable".

Well if it was inevitable, why wasn't something done about it in the first place?
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Indeed and in fact pretty much every country is in the same boat as I just don't understand how something that was happening in China for weeks / months wasn't a big enough kick in the arse globally for these governments to take it serioiusly before it was too late and now everyones deaths are higher? I just cannot wrap my head around it.

KitsuneAndy said:
If it was inevitable, then we should have been looking at ramping up production months ago. Not when it's already needed.

But you'll disagree and say we should've waited until we were desperate for it, because you're so desperate to not blame the Tories.
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Well, considering the Tories hid a report on Excercise Cygnus 4 years ago on how the country would cope with a pandemic and then did nothing about it Id say people have good reason to blame the Tories as they were the ones in power at that time, if it had been Labour Id hate them too!

tarric said:
I always thought that taking responsibility went with the job. If you are in charge at what ever level the responsibility is with you, that's why you took the job in the first place, to be in charge to be responsible for the decision making and if you make the wrong decisions then it is your responsibility to correct it not deny it, learn from your mistakes. The problem we have is that these people are not leaders, they continually look for scapegoats and to deflect blame the buck does not stop with them it is always someone else's fault.
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Indeed, theres a real culture in this government of never accepting responsibility. A great poignant example currently is those NHS staff losing their lives to coronavirus and Matt Handcock writhing when he was talking about how those staff caught it. This is basically putting finances again before people as he's already looking at how much this will cost the nhs due to who he can get away NOT paying death in service benefits.
 
nilagin said:
If indeed it all comes from China, in the past the government, would have been chastised for wasting money buying more expensive PPE.
Amazing that all the people on here, blaming the government for lack of PPE, mentioning all the TV programs, whinging about this and that, yet not one has mentioned the doctor, that was interviewed at home by the BBC, who happened to mention that they have no problems with the amount of PPE in the hospital he works at.
I would imagine each and every hospital in the UK, just like any other country, is responsible for ordering their own PPE, perhaps some are better at it than others .
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Not sure about now but the NHS did or still does a lot central purchasing plus in common with other government departments have 'prefered suppliers'!

As for one doctor saying no PPE issues at his hospital..........for a variety of reasons that cannot mean he or the hospital he works at is representative of all hospitals.
 
Box Brownie said:
As for one doctor saying no PPE issues at his hospital..........for a variety of reasons that cannot mean he or the hospital he works at is representative of all hospitals.
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Nor does it mean that hospitals running short on ppe is representative of all hospitals
 
Donnie said:
Indeed and in fact pretty much every country is in the same boat as I just don't understand how something that was happening in China for weeks / months wasn't a big enough kick in the arse globally for these governments to take it serioiusly before it was too late and now everyones deaths are higher? I just cannot wrap my head around it.
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Could it be that China had been buying up as much ppe and equipment from around the world for their own use, leaving the rest of the world in short supply?
 
UK could have Europe's worst coronavirus death rate, says adviser

'The UK could end up with the worst coronavirus death rate in Europe, one of the government’s leading scientific advisers has said.

Professor Jeremy Farrar, director of the Wellcome Trust and a pandemics expert on the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage), said the figures of almost 1,000 daily deaths showed the UK is in a similar situation to other European countries that have been very badly hit.

Asked whether the UK could be the worst hit, Farrar told the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show: “It is possible. Numbers in the UK have continued to go up. I do hope that we are coming close to the numbers reducing. But yes, the UK is likely to be certainly one of the worst, if not the worst affected country in Europe.”'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...t-coronavirus-death-rate-says-pandemic-expert
 
tarric said:
I always thought that taking responsibility went with the job. If you are in charge at what ever level the responsibility is with you, that's why you took the job in the first place, to be in charge to be responsible for the decision making and if you make the wrong decisions then it is your responsibility to correct it not deny it, learn from your mistakes. The problem we have is that these people are not leaders, they continually look for scapegoats and to deflect blame the buck does not stop with them it is always someone else's fault.
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At least a Trump was upfront on that when he said “I take no responsibility” :(.
 
nilagin said:
Nor does it mean that hospitals running short on ppe is representative of all hospitals
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......However, nothing Dr Roberts describes is quite as alarming as the fact that these medical professionals, who continue to care for critically ill patients for 13 hours every day, are having to resort to fashioning personal protective equipment (PPE) out of clinical waste bags, plastic aprons and borrowed skiing goggles.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52145140
 
cambsno said:
It wouldn’t, it would have been a blessing long term. Well, depends on who would have taken over full time, if Raab then it could have been even worse, but if someone More moderate took over then it would be far better.
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I don’t think “moderate” comes into it, more competent maybe. Who? The present Cabinet are all nodding donkeys, except possibly Gove who did stab Boris in the back publicly and may be only there on the “... keep your enemies closer” principle. Suggestions? If Johnson had died/been incapacitated I expect it would depend on who the Tory MPs would back in the interim since you couldn’t wait for their cumbersome election process.
 
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Box Brownie said:
I think recall in, at least, one case of a doctor that died that he went from being well to critically ill so quickly....... reference was made to the "viral load" that he was likely to have been exposed to and such is high risk in hospital and low in the wider environment!

As for Hancock's statement, surely that infers a failure in full & ongoing comprehensive testing of NHS workers!!!
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The man is an idiot.

Even the thickest and most out of touch politicians should know by now that you just can't mess with the NHS. Even if a politician is truthful and accurate, and I'm not saying he is I'm just making a point, to be seen criticising a Dr/Nurse/the NHS isn't going to get him anywhere. At all. Not unless we're in Harold Shipman territory.

I don't agree with weaponising the NHS or anything about this current or any future pandemic and it's sad when it happens but this idiot does need a pie in his face.
 
Re the current supply mess from the simplest of PPE through ventilators and on to entire hospitals.

I think that after this the UK should ensure that as much of this as possible is done in the UK with spare capacity built in. Several new BIG SOTA hospitals should be built and all including existing facilities should be stuffed with every kind of machine, aid and ppe. Production capacity should exist in the UK to supply all our needs and including a ramp up ability in times of national or global emergency as if there's a global event we can't just go out and buy this stuff as every other country will be trying to do exactly the same thing.

Doing all this would be a massive strain on the economy but the voting public don't seem to mind the sky rocketing national debt so so be it. I think this could also be an opportunity to more radically change the way the UK's economy functions.

I can't see this happening, but it's what I'd do :D
 
nilagin said:
Nor does it mean that hospitals running short on ppe is representative of all hospitals
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It doesn't matter if the "hospitals running short on ppe is representative of all hospitals" any hospital running short of critically important PPE is a serious concern. I take from past posts that your job requires the wearing of PPE and for safeguards to be in place for you to do your job and it is probably in your contract of employment what the punishment for flouting these are. Yet the Minister responsible for Health and Social Care expects healthcare professional's to not only break these rule but to also but there life's in danger while doing so, and then to insinuate that they are part of the problem due to their inability to properly use PPE is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time, and lets be honest he's had some pretty serious competition.
 
The issue with ventilators specifically is that normal uk demand for machines is in very low double digit figures a month at best as they last a very long time.service kits are still produced for machines that ceased production decades ago. Most of the ones my wife makes, in the uk, are for export under normal circumstances.

The issue initially has been supply of the specialist components as much as assembly and this is why the current consortiums are coming together.
 
Just on the thorny subject of correct use of ppe.

I think it is worth looking into use and reuse but it'd have to be through "experts" and would be a time consuming process fraught
with difficulty and minefields. So much so that it's maybe something not for now but for another time.
 
Mozthecat said:
The issue with ventilators specifically is that normal uk demand for machines is in very low double digit figures a month at best as they last a very long time.service kits are still produced for machines that ceased production decades ago. Most of the ones my wife makes, in the uk, are for export under normal circumstances.

The issue initially has been supply of the specialist components as much as assembly and this is why the current consortiums are coming together.
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Lets hope UK industry can supply at least some of the need. If we can make too many, even better, we can do the humanitarian thing and ship the excess to another country in dire need.
 
woof woof said:
Just on the thorny subject of correct use of ppe.

I think it is worth looking into use and reuse but it'd have to be through "experts" and would be a time consuming process fraught
with difficulty and minefields. So much so that it's maybe something not for now but for another time.
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I surmise that PPE will fall into two catagories ~ (1)reusable shift by shift (following disinfection) and (2)disposable due to type and/or method of use
1) Scrubs and footwear / goggles / visors
2) thin plastic aprons / gloves / surgical masks / headcoverings

The list is likely longer depending on the specificity of the care given but in the case of #1 items ~ does each hospital have its own SSU (Sterile Supply Unit), I think not because that is/was on of the centralised services 'back in the day' and was mostly geared up to surgical demand & usages! NB where an SSU exists there needs to be strict protocols of handling infected items and like any service could be overwhelmed by the Covid19 deamd on its service. There has been no public mention AFAIK that has explained which items Hancock was talking about and as such how the better use of them could/should be done???

PS unless the UK had grown the number available................where irradiation by Cobolt 60 was the only option to sterilise certain products there were something like only 3 places (relying on memory of a clean room supply company who I had as a customer ~ who regularly told me that there was often quite a waiting time to get stuff irradiated) in the UK that performed that service. And only slightly more that offered gaseous (scratches head ~ was the gas Ethylene Oxide?) sterilisation.

But what method of non wetting sterilisation is suitable to kill Covid19......................again, if Hancock thinks NHS workers can re-use the PPE can he explain how that can be mitigated for ???

PPS and what about sufficient shower & changing area facilities in the hospitals for the staff to 'protect both themselves & us'???
 
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tarric said:
I take from past posts that your job requires the wearing of PPE and for safeguards to be in place for you to do your job and it is probably in your contract of employment what the punishment for flouting these are.
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PPE is provided, but the only part that is enforced is safety shoes. That has only been enforced in the last 6yrs or so because our manager was my manager in the toolroom where safety shoes were necessary due to heavy lumps of metal. Where I work now, there is no danger of anything falling on feet, so it is overkill. We are supposed to wear safety glasses when disconnecting or connecting fuel lines, but I don't, it's easier to just cover the connectors with a bit of paper towel. As for nitrite gloves, I have only started wearing them because of the virus, prior to that I rarely bother, unless messing about with coolant, but that is because it is sticky and hard to get rid of the smell.
 
Certainly the hospital within which I work has it's own sterlising & disinfection unit (along with a smaller unit out in the community) - the PPE issue is twofold:

1. Availability of the scrubs, googles & visors for the number of staff who now need it - in a normal circumstance these are not worn routinely by all clinical staff, only those in theatres & ITU (and a handful of other specialist areas) - not by staff on general wards (ie. maybe 10% of clinical staff normally versus almost all now) - by pure serendipity the main SDU just went through a recent upgrade and can now handle 10x as much volume.
2. The single use stuff just isn't arriving as quickly as it's required leading to an on-hand shortage.
 
Box Brownie said:
There has been no public mention AFAIK that has explained which items Hancock was talking about and as such how the better use of them could/should be done???
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Doesn't stop the anti-Tories, having their little whinge though, does it?
 
Uncle Fester said:
PM has been discharged from hospital.
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Good to know but I wonder that if he follows doctors orders, how long before he is fully fit enough to take up the reins of being PM?
 
FWIW

Is anyone else seeing a hand gel on this thread in the header and footer???
 
nilagin said:
Doesn't stop the anti-Tories, having their little whinge though, does it?
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It's anti-incompetence. Can't blame us if it's the Tories making a massive mess out of the situation and ignoring the WHO for months on end.

Also Hancock *not* telling people how it could be done properly, or what PPE he was referring to, is a positive in your book?
 
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Box Brownie said:
PPS and what about sufficient shower & changing area facilities in the hospitals for the staff to 'protect both themselves & us'???
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Oh lord no, I'd be more likely to catch something if I used the shower we have access to :-/
 
nilagin said:
Doesn't stop the anti-Tories, having their little whinge though, does it?
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Maybe but those that stand at the press conferences have, as I think I recall, spoken of how the Government will be transparent and informative to the public. The subject of which expressed concern was neither and Hancock by those omissions has done himself, his department or the cabinet any favours!!!
 
nilagin said:
PPE is provided, but the only part that is enforced is safety shoes. That has only been enforced in the last 6yrs or so because our manager was my manager in the toolroom where safety shoes were necessary due to heavy lumps of metal. Where I work now, there is no danger of anything falling on feet, so it is overkill. We are supposed to wear safety glasses when disconnecting or connecting fuel lines, but I don't, it's easier to just cover the connectors with a bit of paper towel. As for nitrite gloves, I have only started wearing them because of the virus, prior to that I rarely bother, unless messing about with coolant, but that is because it is sticky and hard to get rid of the smell.
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So what your saying is that your company has health and safety regulations but that you deliberately flaunt them, luckily it seem that the worst that could happen is a bit of irritation for flaunting the rules unfortunately the risks are a little higher for healthcare workers expected to do their jobs without the correct PPE. I'd have a quick read of your contract.
 
tarric said:
So what your saying is that your company has health and safety regulations but that you deliberately flaunt them
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I'm all for flaunting health and safety regulations but I'm definitely against flouting them... :naughty:
 
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