The virus. PPE. Part 1

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sphexx said:
True, but they have been saying all these things on video and I just wonder what the effect would be if the clips are replayed during elections. The democrats don’t seem to have done that so far, maybe keeping their powder dry?
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I’m sure those videos will resurface in the Presidential election campaign, but I’m not sure that people (particularly die hard Trump supporters) will be swayed. There will be cries of ‘fake news’ and ‘out of context’ by many.

Sadly, reason, logic and facts will not figure highly in peoples decision making. People will believe what they want to believe no matter how absurd, no matter how untruthful.
 
tarric said:
I can't believe what I've just watch Mat Hancock say on the news. They are unable to workout if the nineteen medical personnel who have tragically died so far had caught coronavirus in the line of duty, also that there was plenty of PPE if it was used correctly so is he telling us that the medical professional's are unaware of what PPE they require. I'm sorry but the man is not fit for the office he serves.
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No
He's telling us that a lot gets used once then discarded when it doesn't need to be.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
No
He's telling us that a lot gets used once then discarded when it doesn't need to be.
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And how does he know is he personally present at every hospital or is he just trying to deflect blame, also going by this past track record I'm going to take the word of the people who are actually using the equipment rather than the word of someone who has been telling us for weeks that there is plenty in stock but can't seem to organise getting it to where it's needed and only the other day appealed to UK companies to help with PPE, just a little late in the day. Like I said the man's is not fit for the office he serves.

 
hunnymonster said:
You mean like it should be for infection control reasons?
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there's a few bits under certain circumstances that can be reused eg goggles which can be disinfected, some visors similarly, but Handcock makes it sound like Drs and Nurses that have had specific training for years on infection control and have colleagues being infected or dying or dead from covid19, dont know how to use the equipment properly?

He's a dick and is trying to deflect the medias probing of the supply issues.
 
hunnymonster said:
You mean like it should be for infection control reasons?
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Well obviously he was talking b*****ks based on what Donnie knows actually working in a hospital.
I don't know how things work in coronavirus wards, but if a group of nurses are dealing with patients in one ward, and are changing ppe after each patient, then is that always necessary if all the patients are already infected?
That's how I took it when Matt Hancock said it.
But, as I said, I don't know and Donnie has already said he was talking rubbish.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Well obviously he was talking b*****ks based on what Donnie knows actually working in a hospital.
I don't know how things work in coronavirus wards, but if a group of nurses are dealing with patients in one ward, and are changing ppe after each patient, then is that always necessary if all the patients are already infected?
That's how I took it when Matt Hancock said it.
But, as I said, I don't know and Donnie has already said he was talking rubbish.
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In many of the cohorted areas with suspected or confirmed areas some PPE will be sessional. For example, a session could be a drs ward round, so they will wear pp3 mask, visor / goggles, complete blue gown, surgical hat, surgical overshoes and 2 pairs of gloves, but on that ward round may see a number of separate patients.

So, in that area for the whole time on the ward round you could wear all that gear and NOT change between patients as long as you are not touching them / examining them directly. IF you do, you would add the plastic apron on top and this is where the extra pair of gloves comes into play as once you examine the patient you would then dispose of only the top layer of gloves and plastic apron and then use alcohol gel on the first pair of gloves before putting a second pair back on ready for the next patient.

Once the ward round is over you then "doff" all the PPE gear in a special area (if your hospital has room, not all do) and in a certain sequence too to limit the spread of any particles you may have acquired. Items that can be disinfected can be, this is usually only goggles / faceshields though.
 
Believe me, we're treating PPE as a precious resource as no one wants to get this horrible disease, either for themselves or because it means you end up not being able to care for your patients which makes it worse.
 
Priti Patel palming people off as usual.

"we're sorry if people *feel* that there have been failings".

Not that they're sorry that there have been failings, or that they'll address the failings. Just that they're sorry people feel that way.
 
She also said we'd carried out "Three hundred thousand and thirty four, nine hundred and seventy four thousand tests carried out across the UK"

So I hope all the Tories on here are now going to abuse her as much as they do Dianne Abbot.
 
Oh and something else thats not been picked up in the media yet, ventilated adults being cared for on paediatric ICUs! And Paediatrics on Neonatal ICUs!
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Indeed they can.

But the evidence suggests this is not the case with COVID-19
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Re a rapid evolutionary step (to attach to human cells) or rather not, as you state, I'm none the wiser now :) I thought it evolved after entering humans and that was only last November..as far as I know. In order for me to get a decent night's sleep ..lol .I'd really appreciate if you could clarify this. Upon reflection, I think it would have been better had I just posted the Horizon link :) I have to say, though, that having watched the Horizon programme I found it fascinating..the research to get a vaccine, the unravelling of the nature of this new form of corona virus. I envy those on here who have been able to help others understand it all and in plain english too. It's obviously fascinating and rewarding work.
 
Uncle Fester said:
I’m sure those videos will resurface in the Presidential election campaign, but I’m not sure that people (particularly die hard Trump supporters) will be swayed. There will be cries of ‘fake news’ and ‘out of context’ by many.

Sadly, reason, logic and facts will not figure highly in peoples decision making. People will believe what they want to believe no matter how absurd, no matter how untruthful.
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The die-hards no but others hopefully. This ”fake news” thing is odd, it’s been taken up here by everyone, but Trump didn’t use it to describe false news but stuff he doesn’t like. For example the BBC uses it but they were identified by Trump in a news conference as a main purveyor of “fake news” :(.
 
JohnC6 said:
Re a rapid evolutionary step (to attach to human cells) or rather not, as you state, I'm none the wiser now :) I thought it evolved after entering humans and that was only last November..as far as I know. In order for me to get a decent night's sleep ..lol .I'd really appreciate if you could clarify this. Upon reflection, I think it would have been better had I just posted the Horizon link :) I have to say, though, that having watched the Horizon programme I found it fascinating..the research to get a vaccine, the unravelling of the nature of this new form of corona virus. I envy those on here who have been able to help others understand it all and in plain english too. It's obviously fascinating and rewarding work.
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We don't actually have a good handle on when and where the virus evolved into its current form. The closest relative we know about is a bat virus, RaTG13, that is 96% identical to SARS-CoV-2, the human virus. Given current estimates of the mutation rate, that probably means the two viruses had a common ancestor some decades ago. The pangolin virus we know about is a more distant relative. But there's probably a lot of 'dark matter' here - i.e., related viruses in bats and other species we simply haven't sampled yet, and some may well be closer to SARS-CoV-2 than anything we've seen so far.

We already know that SARS-CoV-2 can infect other species, including cats and ferrets, so it's quite possible it evolved mostly or entirely in a different host and just happens to be good at infecting us too, especially if the structure of the ACE2 protein it has evolved to use as a receptor is similar in humans and the previous host. One reason the pangolin theory has had some traction is that key elements ('amino acid residues') of the viral spike protein that bind ACE2 in the human and pangolin viruses are identical, even though the pangolin virus is otherwise a more distant cousin than the bat virus. Perhaps relatives of the known bat and pangolin viruses have recombined (swapped genetic material) while co-infecting a pangolin or some other animal. Or maybe this is just an example of 'convergent evolution' (the ancestor of SARS-CoV-2 and the pangolin virus could have been under similar selection pressures, evolving similar adaptations in similar hosts).

But perhaps SARS-CoV-2 came directly from bats to humans, either fully formed or close enough to need only minor changes to transmit efficiently between humans. Wherever the 'zoonosis' came from, if any significant evolution of the virus occurred in humans, then it would have pre-dated the first outbreak we know about, since even the earliest genome sequences isolated from Wuhan are of SARS-CoV-2 in its current form. It's conceivable that some less well-adapted progenitor of the virus could have circulated quietly in humans earlier and not been detected because of lower transmissibility or lower virulence, but there's no evidence of this so far.
 
Retune said:
some less well-adapted progenitor of the virus could have circulated quietly in humans earlier and not been detected because of lower transmissibility or lower virulence, but there's no evidence of this so far.
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My hypothesis would be that the virus has been infecting some rural population(s) that have been breeding/trapping these various species and they themselves may have developed an immunity to it years before it appeared in Wuhan.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
She also said we'd carried out "Three hundred thousand and thirty four, nine hundred and seventy four thousand tests carried out across the UK"

So I hope all the Tories on here are now going to abuse her as much as they do Dianne Abbot.
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Now we know why she has been kept away from the cameras the last month...
pretty worrying when the Home Secretary can’t even read numbers from a page in front of her
 
jakeblu said:
Interesting to see how the right wing, politicians and media, in the US first started to report Covid-19. Apologies if its been posted already

View: https://youtu.be/NAh4uS4f78o
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We have some closer to home. Daniel Hannan in February tweeted "The coronavirus isn't going to kill you. It really isn't" with a link to his article headlined "Daniel Hannan: Alarmism, doom-mongering, panic – and the coronavirus. We are nowhere near a 1919-style catastrophe. "

He deleted the tweet in March, i wonder why....

Some quotes from his article:

...There is a similar bias, albeit a less pronounced one, among the various medical advisory bodies: epidemics are what they exist for, and they wouldn’t be human if they didn’t have a subliminal desire to talk them up.

...companies that manufacture ’flu vaccines have every reason to exaggerate the danger.

How does the coronavirus compare with the two previous scares? Its symptoms, generally, are those of a heavy cold

But I’m going to stick my neck out here. You’re unlikely to be killed by the coronavirus. Yes, the disease is unpleasant; and, yes, in some circumstances, it can cause complications that lead to fatalities. But it is unlikely to be as lethal as the more common forms of influenza that we take for granted, let alone as lethal as, say, stroke or heart disease.
 
Rapscallion said:
Now we know why she has been kept away from the cameras the last month...
pretty worrying when the Home Secretary can’t even read numbers from a page in front of her
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Has no-one hear ever given a presentation and got something wrong or mis-read notes??

There are many things to be critical of, like yet again not admitting PPE failures.

In terms of senior business positions, being an MP is not a well paid job, yet we criticise them for very small mistakes.
 
Rapscallion said:
Some quotes from his article.
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It's going to get me in trouble to say so but...

There are some people who demonstrate why freedom of speech should be accompanied by the freedom to empty your chamber pot over the head of the speaker!
 
Rapscallion said:
We have some closer to home. Daniel Hannan in February tweeted "The coronavirus isn't going to kill you. It really isn't" with a link to his article headlined "Daniel Hannan: Alarmism, doom-mongering, panic – and the coronavirus. We are nowhere near a 1919-style catastrophe. "

He deleted the tweet in March, i wonder why....

Some quotes from his article:

...There is a similar bias, albeit a less pronounced one, among the various medical advisory bodies: epidemics are what they exist for, and they wouldn’t be human if they didn’t have a subliminal desire to talk them up.

...companies that manufacture ’flu vaccines have every reason to exaggerate the danger.

How does the coronavirus compare with the two previous scares? Its symptoms, generally, are those of a heavy cold

But I’m going to stick my neck out here. You’re unlikely to be killed by the coronavirus. Yes, the disease is unpleasant; and, yes, in some circumstances, it can cause complications that lead to fatalities. But it is unlikely to be as lethal as the more common forms of influenza that we take for granted, let alone as lethal as, say, stroke or heart disease.
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And to think he was probably the most intelligent member of the leave campaign ...
 
sphexx said:
The die-hards no but others hopefully. This ”fake news” thing is odd, it’s been taken up here by everyone, but Trump didn’t use it to describe false news but stuff he doesn’t like. For example the BBC uses it but they were identified by Trump in a news conference as a main purveyor of “fake news” :(.
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But the whole concept of ‘fake news’ is the genius of the likes of Steve Bannon and Dominic Cummings. The power of the label ‘fake news’ is that you can totally dismiss the truth and make the lie truthful. You persuade people that the moon on a stick is possible and suddenly the moon on a stick is the will of the people and anything else is anti democratic.

You can sell nebulous concepts like ‘take back control’ and ‘make America great again’ using the power of fake news to dismiss all opposing arguments. In the last few years, we have seen the biggest political con job in history i.e. corrupting democracy with lies in the name of democracy.

The great problem with sensible and reasonable people is that they behave in a sensible and reasonable way and you will never counter the power of the lie, deception and dogmatic belief that way.

Now that Trump is President and that Brexit is done (albeit in name only) I fully expect the lie machine to be reactivated once the Corona Virus outbreak is dealt with so that blame can be passed on to others and we the survivors can be told what a great job our leaders have done.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
She also said we'd carried out "Three hundred thousand and thirty four, nine hundred and seventy four thousand tests carried out across the UK"

So I hope all the Tories on here are now going to abuse her as much as they do Dianne Abbot.
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Tories simply don't have that type of insight unfortunately.

Rapscallion said:
Now we know why she has been kept away from the cameras the last month...
pretty worrying when the Home Secretary can’t even read numbers from a page in front of her
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LOL, just wait until Rees-Mogg makes an appearance looking like an undertaker!

cambsno said:
Has no-one hear ever given a presentation and got something wrong or mis-read notes??

There are many things to be critical of, like yet again not admitting PPE failures.

In terms of senior business positions, being an MP is not a well paid job, yet we criticise them for very small mistakes.
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f*****g right, it's called accountability and through action or inaction they have caused harm, distress and death. That's factual, not emotional!
 
Donnie said:
Tories simply don't have that type of insight unfortunately.



LOL, just wait until Rees-Mogg makes an appearance looking like an undertaker!



f*****g right, it's called accountability and through action or inaction they have caused harm, distress and death. That's factual, not emotional!
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But they always will! They are no different to you or me, they will make mistakes and stuff they do or don’t do will cause harm and distress. No wonder politicians try to cover up or don’t answer the question- because if they admit a mistake or get something wrong they are chastised.
 
cambsno said:
But they always will! They are no different to you or me, they will make mistakes and stuff they do or don’t do will cause harm and distress. No wonder politicians try to cover up or don’t answer the question- because if they admit a mistake or get something wrong they are chastised.
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Indeed, the fake apology was deliberate. But she just said a number wrong. Just makes me laugh how quick people were to attack Diane Abbott when it was a Labour representative getting a number wrong and saying she was incapable of doing her job because of it. Yet there's tumbeweeds from the same people with regards to Priti Patel.

Bearing in mind that Priti was reading it though, I have no idea why she didn't just stop and correct herself.

The biggest issue for me, was the complete non-apology. While also stating that the demand for PPE was "inevitable".

Well if it was inevitable, why wasn't something done about it in the first place?
 
KitsuneAndy said:
She also said we'd carried out "Three hundred thousand and thirty four, nine hundred and seventy four thousand tests carried out across the UK"

So I hope all the Tories on here are now going to abuse her as much as they do Dianne Abbot.
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92844898_10159629601134606_7589097308113862656_o.jpg
 
Another fake apology on the Andrew Marr show.
Saying exactly the same thing...."we're sorry people feel..."
Not doing themselves any favours at all.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Well if it was inevitable, why wasn't something done about it in the first place?
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Manufacturers can't keep up with demand, even with extra manufacturers having been drafted in, supply can't keep up with demand.
But you will ignore that answer, as it is too simplistic, you would rather blame the Tories.
 
nilagin said:
Manufacturers can't keep up with demand, even with extra manufacturers having been drafted in, supply can't keep up with demand.
But you will ignore that answer, as it is too simplistic, you would rather blame the Tories.
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If it was inevitable, then we should have been looking at ramping up production months ago. Not when it's already needed.

But you'll disagree and say we should've waited until we were desperate for it, because you're so desperate to not blame the Tories.
 
Matt Hancock also said that some of the Frontline NHS staff who've died, might've contracted it away from work, so PPE wouldn't have helped.

Would've stopped them spreading it to other people though wouldn't it you absolute nob?

Sadly today we will pass the 10000 dead mark. But Boris is ok, and that's all the papers will talk about.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Matt Hancock also said that some of the Frontline NHS staff who've died, might've contracted it away from work, so PPE wouldn't have helped.

Would've stopped them spreading it to other people though wouldn't it you absolute nob?

Sadly today we will pass the 10000 dead mark. But Boris is ok, and that's all the papers will talk about.
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I'm no fan of Johnson, a Trump lite character and egocentric opportunist, but if he'd have died, it would have been pretty disastrous for the country. I don't think we've had a death of a serving Prime Minister in living memory.
 
cambsno said:
No wonder politicians try to cover up or don’t answer the question- because if they admit a mistake or get something wrong they are chastised.
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I believe you mean "criticised". Personally, I'm all for chastising them as well. Whipping them out of town behind a slow moving cart comes to mind as an appropriate course of action... :naughty:
 
jakeblu said:
I'm no fan of Johnson, a Trump lite character and egocentric opportunist, but if he'd have died, it would have been pretty disastrous for the country. I don't think we've had a death of a serving Prime Minister in living memory.
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It would have been, but he didn't. He didn't even need a respirator. Him getting well isn't *that* big news that it needs to dominate the headlines for several days. It's certainly not bigger news than the fact that by the end of today we'll have over 10000 people dead from a virus that this Govt wanted us all to catch.
 
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