The virus. PPE. Part 1

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cambsno said:
This.

There are lots of variables and as an example If 95% of South Koreans had no health issues and were under 60 they would have a lot less deaths than us if we had mainly 70+ people getting it.

Not to say we could have handled it better but I would like to see country comparisons of healthy under 60 year olds to see the real impacts.
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The median age in South Korea is 42, ours is 40. So they have an older population than us in general.
 
cambsno said:
This.

There are lots of variables and as an example If 95% of South Koreans had no health issues and were under 60 they would have a lot less deaths than us if we had mainly 70+ people getting it.

Not to say we could have handled it better but I would like to see country comparisons of healthy under 60 year olds to see the real impacts.
Click to expand...

I'd like t know to true ratio of recovery/death
We are told not to contact medical services unless you have serious problems
If you have symptoms self isolate etc. so the actual infection figures could be a lot
higher then are being quoted and many may have had it and recovered.
 
cambsno said:
This.

There are lots of variables and as an example If 95% of South Koreans had no health issues and were under 60 they would have a lot less deaths than us if we had mainly 70+ people getting it.

Not to say we could have handled it better but I would like to see country comparisons of healthy under 60 year olds to see the real impacts.
Click to expand...

I believe that we could well have made better preparation if we had an additional four weeks warning. Given that China hid what was taking place for four weeks it has (in addition to permitting dangerous and revolting wet markets) to be held to account for that. Similarly, China attempted to conceal the SARS outbreak.
It would be unjust to point fingers at people for not being in a better state of readiness without holding the prime culprits fully to account.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
The median age in South Korea is 42, ours is 40. So they have an older population than us in general.
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Its about who was infected - not the population age. If say 10 people get infected in UK, 8 of which are over 80 or have health conditions, but only 2 of 10 in Sth Korea who get infected are over 80 or have health condition then we will have (probably) a far worse death rate. Of course, not everything is as simple as that, and Sth Korea do appear to have done everything almost textbook.

What i am seeing on my 2 shopping trips per week, is that a lot of the people I see (I generally go around 8/9am) are over 60, and a lot over 70. Quite a few (especially at Tesco) are couples and I even saw a 70 yo woman in a wheelchair (now I appreciate that just because you are in a chair does not mean you do have health conditions but she was probably give or take around 70) - seeing as 90% of deaths occur in over 60s I find this strange.
 
arclight said:
I believe that we could well have made better preparation if we had an additional four weeks warning. Given that China hid what was taking place for four weeks it has (in addition to permitting dangerous and revolting wet markets) to be held to account for that. Similarly, China attempted to conceal the SARS outbreak.
It would be unjust to point fingers at people for not being in a better state of readiness without holding the prime culprits fully to account.
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The WHO declared it to be a Public Health Emergency of International Concern on 30 January 2020, which four additional weeks are we talking about.
Did China hide it or maybe they weren't sure about what was actually happening.

So what do you propose as in "holding the prime suspects fully to account"
 
Allan.H said:
The WHO declared it to be a Public Health Emergency of International Concern on 30 January 2020, which four additional weeks are we talking about.
Did China hide it or maybe they weren't sure about what was actually happening.

So what do you propose as in "holding the prime suspects fully to account"
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WHO denied there was any evidence of concern on 14th Jan
View: https://BANNED/WHO/status/1217043229427761152?s=20


Even though Taiwan Heath Authorities had contacted WHO in December about their concerns.
 
nilagin said:
WHO denied there was any evidence of concern on 14th Jan
View: https://BANNED/WHO/status/1217043229427761152?s=20


Even though Taiwan Heath Authorities had contacted WHO in December about their concerns.
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so what are you trying to prove, what do you disagree with what I posted
 
BBC news just now, a care home representative saying that the cost of vital PPE has risen by 600% in the last 4 weeks.

SIX-HUNDRED PERCENT!
 
mex said:
BBC news just now, a care home representative saying that the cost of vital PPE has risen by 600% in the last 4 weeks.

SIX-HUNDRED PERCENT!
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And they pay vat on the stuff, odd as I thought safety equipment was zero rated for vat purposes, do care homes not register for vat so are able to claim it back?
 
Allan.H said:
The WHO declared it to be a Public Health Emergency of International Concern on 30 January 2020, which four additional weeks are we talking about.
Did China hide it or maybe they weren't sure about what was actually happening.

So what do you propose as in "holding the prime suspects fully to account"
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They are a totalitarian regime with a horrendous human rights record . Is there anyone who would possibly believe that they were unsure.

For a start do not give them any lucrative contracts in this country followed by progressively purchasing imports from elsewhere.
 
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MatBin said:
And they pay vat on the stuff, odd as I thought safety equipment was zero rated for vat purposes, do care homes not register for vat so are able to claim it back?
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Certain supplies, such as health and welfare are specifically exempt from VAT. I am far from sure of the overall VAT liability. Nothing is ever clear cut with such matters.
 
Retune said:
View: https://BANNED/Laurie_Garrett/status/1246830212840652801
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that graphic now runs to 7th (3/7 in Amerispeak :() and CV is at the top :(.
 
Retune said:
I believe there's a large trading bloc just across the Channel - perhaps we could seek some sort of close relationship with them?
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When this is all over they may not have anything left worth trading for.
 
Nice one, Premier league footballers have launched a 'collective initiative' raising much needed toot for the NHS in response to Matt Hancock suggesting they should....next stop hedge fund generators or tax-dodging companies or Tory party donators next? ....don't hold your breath.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52219771
 
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It is more than likely the lockdown extension will continue after today's meeting but I think they should be looking at ways to start back some essential things. Namely cancer treatments like chemotherapy which is a very stressful time for anyone faced with this procedure. In addition at some stage dentists should be given PPE as people can't go on indefinitely with severe toothache.
 
it is true that China has a certain hive like quality where the individual is expected to conform for the welfare of all.
But it is a system that both works and is adaptable.
Today it is a hybrid system, a joint state controlled private enterprise venture, and like most hybrids it is doing remarkably well. it has a growth and success rate that most countries would die for.

Somewhat like Russia, it has taken to the individual capitalist business model like duck to water. however though its leading business men are incredibly rich, and corruption is rife. The State seems to curb their excesses with ruthless determination, with those caught out, severely punished usually at the cost of their lives. ultimately everything is dominated by the command structure of the state.

For instance the ownership of Huawei has preoccupied Political minds for some time. The official answer is..

" Huawei is owned by our employees through an Employee Stock Ownership Program (ESOP) that has been in place since the beginning. No one can own a share without working at Huawei, and as of 2018 there were 96,768 shareholding employees. Our founder, Ren Zhengfei, owns a 1.14% stake in the company. "

As the employees stock ownership plan is administered by their official trade union. and all such trade unions are, state controlled. it is thought, by many in the west, that the Chinese state must equally control Huawei. While that might be true in the sense of ultimate ownership control, as in how a main board share ownership might outweigh all other factors . There seems to be no evidence that the Chinese state micromanages Huawei at all. Were there such evidence. I am sure it would have come to light by now. The suggestion seems to be entirely speculation based on no more than "what Iffs"

I would suggest that every Chinese company operates with the consent and within the control structure of the Chinese state.

In practical terms this is little different to the controls used by government in the west to control and regulate their own companies.

Neither system should give any particular concern to the other.

In East or west, should their government "requests" a company, organisation or individual, to do something for the benefit/ security of the country, they would find it very difficult not to comply. The general population, in both cases, would most likely, remain in total ignorance of it.

Largely freedom in the west is an illusion, none of us can do more than our particular legal and political systems allow. We are, perhaps, even more controlled by our financial positions, and the reality of our obligations to maintain the lives of both ourselves and our families.
If we do not comply with the laws and regulation of the land, or our contracts of employment and whims of our employers, then our remaining freedoms are nullified, and life become difficult to impossible.

In China these things are codified to a far greater extent, and they are seen in the west as a violation of human rights.
A person who ends up on the waste heap of humanity would find it impossible to distinguish any benefit in either system.
 
Peter10d said:
It is more than likely the lockdown extension will continue after today's meeting but I think they should be looking at ways to start back some essential things. Namely cancer treatments like chemotherapy which is a very stressful time for anyone faced with this procedure. In addition at some stage dentists should be given PPE as people can't go on indefinitely with severe toothache.
Click to expand...

I am sure private dentist already have access to PPE.
Even dentists operating as contractors to the NHS are "Private Contractors" in much the same way as Partners in a medical practice are, and are responsible for sourcing their own supplies. albeit sourced and refunded though normal channels.
In the present special circumstances one would expect the Government to directly facilitate and organise such bulk supplies as are needed.
 
If this is anything to go (660 parties shut down over last weekend just in manchester) then I would not only expect the lockdown to be extended but quite possibly harsher measures. In Ireland they've just introduced a 2km from your home rule and there's reports of idiots leaving the 6 counties to go to their holiday homes in the Republic! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
it is true that China has a certain hive like quality where the individual is expected to conform for the welfare of all.
But it is a system that both works and is adaptable.
Click to expand...
If you go on being reasonable and writing all that accurate stuff you'll give this forum a good bad name, you will.

:plus1:
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
I am sure private dentist already have access to PPE.
Even dentists operating as contractors to the NHS are "Private Contractors" in much the same way as Partners in a medical practice are, and are responsible for sourcing their own supplies. albeit sourced and refunded though normal channels.
In the present special circumstances one would expect the Government to directly facilitate and organise such bulk supplies as are needed.
Click to expand...

My wife is a dental hygene tech in a private surgery, they have been short of PPE for quite some time and are finding it very difficult to source, so much so that they are running with minimal staff, my wife is now furloughed and the practice are only taking emergencies and only then if the patient cannot be treated by NHS hospital dentists.
 
Donnie said:
If this is anything to go (660 parties shut down over last weekend just in manchester) then I would not only expect the lockdown to be extended but quite possibly harsher measures. In Ireland they've just introduced a 2km from your home rule and there's reports of idiots leaving the 6 counties to go to their holiday homes in the Republic! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688
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In Paris they've banned all exercise completely.

On the road report yesterday a crash with a car towing a caravan....where the f*** were they going?
 
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Donnie said:
If this is anything to go (660 parties shut down over last weekend just in manchester) then I would not only expect the lockdown to be extended but quite possibly harsher measures. In Ireland they've just introduced a 2km from your home rule and there's reports of idiots leaving the 6 counties to go to their holiday homes in the Republic! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688
Click to expand...

The scale of that is breathtaking
You have to wonder what effect if any, harsher measures would have.
I mean, if they don't give a f*** now....its going to have to be a military solution ?...:rolleyes:
 
joxby said:
The scale of that is breathtaking
You have to wonder what effect if any, harsher measures would have.
I mean, if they don't give a f*** now....its going to have to be a military solution ?...:rolleyes:
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:agree:
 
In a week where child benefit was increased for millions of familes struggling with cihildren living in poverty by 35p a week, politicians have been given £10000 to help them and their staff to work from home. Nice.
 
mex said:
In a week where child benefit was increased for millions of familes struggling with cihildren living in poverty by 35p a week, politicians have been given £10000 to help them and their staff to work from home. Nice.
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They must be really struggling. Surely they must all have laptops and printers etc?
Also to help with increased Bill's?
Wonder what my company would say if I put in an expense claim for gas/electricity etc....
 
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mex said:
My wife is a dental hygiene tech in a private surgery, they have been short of PPE for quite some time and are finding it very difficult to source, so much so that they are running with minimal staff, my wife is now furloughed and the practice are only taking emergencies and only then if the patient cannot be treated by NHS hospital dentists.
Click to expand...

I suspect all dentist like everyone else was caught off guard. on a very few would have bought the necessary supplies when they heard about the virus outbreak in china. Everyone is now playing catch up.

I brought forward my appointment with the dentist before the lock down hit us. and had a couple of repairs done. Had I not done so, I might have had to have a major job done on one of them when this is all over. I can not see anyone going to see the hygienist again any time soon, which is tough on people like your wife.
 
Donnie said:
If this is anything to go (660 parties shut down over last weekend just in manchester) then I would not only expect the lockdown to be extended but quite possibly harsher measures. In Ireland they've just introduced a 2km from your home rule and there's reports of idiots leaving the 6 counties to go to their holiday homes in the Republic! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688
Click to expand...

We need a few concentration camps for such people, where they can be left to all their fun, and grief together, away from the rest of us.
Some might even be alive and let out, when this is all over
 
Mrs Nod had a crown fall off and was extremely lucky to get pretty much the last emergency appointment at her (NHS) dentist - "How fast can you get here?", "10 minutes!". We were there in 5! My toasted sarnie got cold!!!

I use a very high Fluoride content toothpaste which is prescription only so am waiting for a call from my (private) practice to arrange a mutually convenient pick-up time. They'll stick it outside the door when I get there after sorting payment over the phone.
 
arclight said:
Terrywoodenpic said:
"We need a few concentration camps for such people..."

Retune said "This is a sentence that never ends well. "

They just need re-educating, China style.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-50511063
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No just let them continue to have all the freedom they want, but in a secure location.where they can have all the social contact that they desire.
Could even "borrow" a holiday camp, or two, to provide the necessary comforts of home. If there were a few medics and undertakers amongst their number. They could do the necessary honours.
 
I see MPs are getting an extra £10k expenses to work from home.

Surely it's cheaper?
 
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