The virus. PPE. Part 1

Status
Not open for further replies.
Bobsyeruncle said:
My point is that you or I don't know what's going on behind closed doors, or what's being said, planned etc.
Click to expand...
Which is my point as well.

There may, in cases of war as an example, be good reasons for secrecy but there simply cannot be secrecy in this sort of emergency. The usual excuse for government secrecy is "to prevent panic" but a cynic might argue that is generally obfuscation for "if they know the truth they'll hang us".
 
KitsuneAndy said:
We do know. Because we can look at South Korea, and see how different our figures are from that, and that they followed the WHO advice to the letter with the testing and contact tracing program.
Click to expand...

You can't look at other cultures and hold them up as models, I keep hearing about what is happening in Italy, but they have
a very different way of life, they care for the elderly in their homes, several generations live together, I have an Italian friend who said this to me
 
KitsuneAndy said:
There was a report I read the other day that said the Govt seemed to be listening to the statisticians and social scientists that are part of SAGE as opposed to those with medical and virological qualifications. Will try and find the link.
Click to expand...

You need to listen to everyone as they all bring something to the table.

I can't speak for social scientists but the statisticians are the ones who understand the numbers, the ones who help the scientists and virologist tease out the numbers that mean something from the numbers that don't. Without their input, the scientists and virologists are just guessing.
 
Interesting historical parallels:

”In 1916, ... David Lloyd George took office determined to get the Great War done.
The new prime minister had a colorful private life. Despite being married to Margaret, his wife of 28 years, he was carrying on a relationship with his private secretary, Frances Stevenson. Frances was 27 years younger than her employer and pregnant with his child.”

The rest of the article describes how Lloyd George got the ”Spanish” Flu and how it was covered up and then describes the many other occasions when U.K. PMs have been ill and it has been covered up. So if you think your getting true info about Johnson’s state, think again ‘(.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/...wning-street-in-sickness-and-in-health-174503

Particularly choice is the claim that Anthony Eden was “off his face” on Benzedrine during the Suez crisis :(.
 
This isn't just hindsight. Plenty of well-informed people were criticising the original UK 'herd immunity' strategy as an 'outlier' before the abrupt and belated change in policy triggered by the revised Ferguson model. See for example:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...st-britain-herd-immunity-coronavirus-covid-19

The argument that we can't use a South Korean approach because of cultural differences doesn't hold up. Other European countries are already starting to learn from them and bringing in testing, contact tracing and isolation on a massively increased scale, just as the WHO has always advised. Before the lockdown, we simply assumed these approaches wouldn't scale. Today South Korea, a democracy with a population the size of England that had to suppress a serious outbreak, has fewer COVID-19 deaths than Birmingham.
 
jakeblu said:
...and yet our figures today are very close to the worst in Italy and Spain
Click to expand...
Still a pointless comparison, because there are still way too many variables to make a direct comparison.
 
Retune said:
This isn't just hindsight. Plenty of well-informed people were criticising the original UK 'herd immunity' strategy as an 'outlier' before the abrupt and belated change in policy triggered by the revised Ferguson model. See for example:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...st-britain-herd-immunity-coronavirus-covid-19

The argument that we can't use a South Korean approach because of cultural differences doesn't hold up. Today South Korea, a democracy with a population the size of England that had to suppress a serious outbreak, has fewer COVID-19 deaths than Birmingham.
Click to expand...
Comparing the number of deaths doesn't hold up neither, but still you try.
 
sphexx said:
Interesting historical parallels:

”In 1916, ... David Lloyd George took office determined to get the Great War done.
The new prime minister had a colorful private life. Despite being married to Margaret, his wife of 28 years, he was carrying on a relationship with his private secretary, Frances Stevenson. Frances was 27 years younger than her employer and pregnant with his child.”

The rest of the article describes how Lloyd George got the ”Spanish” Flu and how it was covered up and then describes the many other occasions when U.K. PMs have been ill and it has been covered up. So if you think your getting true info about Johnson’s state, think again ‘(.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/...wning-street-in-sickness-and-in-health-174503

Particularly choice is the claim that Anthony Eden was “off his face” on Benzedrine during the Suez crisis :(.
Click to expand...
I find it strange that all reports regarding Johnsons current situation are from politicians and not anyone remotely medical, unless I've missed something.
 
nilagin said:
Comparing the number of deaths doesn't hold up neither, but still you try.
Click to expand...
Actually its an excellent comparison when looking at how differing models can be judged on their effectiveness. Of course there are other factors to consider too, but to say deaths can't be a legitimate pointer is wrong
 
nilagin said:
Still a pointless comparison, because there are still way too many variables to make a direct comparison.
Click to expand...
At a certain point, we have to pull our heads out of the sand (or wherever else they might be stuck) and look around. When the number of people lost to this virus is thirty times higher in the UK than in a country with a markedly different strategy, where people are still going about their business rather than being subject to a massive lockdown, perhaps we should consider whether there is anything we can learn from them.
 
Whatever ones opinion of the handling (or lack there of) of this crisis, once normality resumes, it is essential that a Public Inquiry is carried out into all aspects of the pandemic. It’s scope must be wide ranging with nothing and no one excluded from the remit of the inquiry. Lessons need to be learned and learned very quickly, as we have no idea when another pandemic may strike.

I somehow imagine that the current government will be very reluctant to do this.
 
jakeblu said:
Actually its an excellent comparison when looking at how differing models can be judged on their effectiveness. Of course there are other factors to consider too, but to say deaths can't be a legitimate pointer is wrong
Click to expand...
The only deaths that are comparable are those where people had no underlying health problems. Even when comparing healthy people, immune systems can differ. So no it isn't comparable because all the underlying factors are so varied.
 
Uncle Fester said:
Whatever ones opinion of the handling (or lack there of) of this crisis, once normality resumes, it is essential that a Public Inquiry is carried out into all aspects of the pandemic. It’s scope must be wide ranging with nothing and no one excluded from the remit of the inquiry. Lessons need to be learned and learned very quickly, as we have no idea when another pandemic may strike.

I somehow imagine that the current government will be very reluctant to do this.
Click to expand...
They can save time and money, just read the posts on here.
Done deal.
 
nilagin said:
They can save time and money, just read the posts on here.
Done deal.
Click to expand...


Uncle Fester said:
Could you kindly do me a favour please?

Could you never ever respond to one of my posts again?

I'm not a primary school teacher and I have neither the skill or the patience required to simplify things to the degree you obviously require.

Under the current circumstances, I'm concerned for for my physical health. I don't need my mental health threatened as well.

I really appreciate you complying with my request - thank you.
Click to expand...


Please comply, thanks.
 
Retune said:
perhaps we should consider whether there is anything we can learn from them.
Click to expand...
Yeah slap a £5000 fine on anyone flouting the social distancing and making their once a day exercise last all day by walking/cycling mile upon mile.
 
nilagin said:
South Korea has reported 51 cases of reinfection.
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/936024.html
Click to expand...

Yes, and SK was ready for Coronavirus and claims to be ready for a further outbreak.
Interesting that SK and Singapore have much better figures than the UK (for a variety of reasons), but both these countries have higher population densities (which have the potential to facilitate a faster and more extensive infection spread than the UK)

People per Sq. Kilometre

UK 281 S. Korea 527 Singapore 8358

I expect that the UK will have an enquiry. I expect that the WHO will also have an enquiry that will not get full and frank co-operation from China, N. Korea, Russia and some others.
How long will these enquiries take. Ages, as always. Quite possibly not before the next pandemic.
 
and still the bickering and scoring brownie points continue . not worth adding to anything in this thread these days
 
mex said:
This does not look good.

https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/artic...c33qxE7E0-l1Bn3yxmHuGeUmX4g-xjxqBZRrJo-n_fF38
Click to expand...

I am wondering how much of the 'message not being passed on' was no 10's demand to not hear any bad news.
Ive now some people in authority that will in effect put their fingers in their ears if they are told something they do not want to hear. A message will come back telling you not to say such things in future and moderate your predictions.
It really wouldn't surprise me if that was the case in upper echelons of government...
 
Rapscallion said:
A message will come back telling you not to say such things in future and moderate your predictions. It really wouldn't surprise me if that was the case in upper echelons of government...
Click to expand...
This is why we need a strong press with a willingness to keep digging until they get to the truth. It's a great shame that the same hubris and greed that has afflicted politics has also infected our once strong media sector.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
This is why we need a strong press with a willingness to keep digging until they get to the truth. It's a great shame that the same hubris and greed that has afflicted politics has also infected our once strong media sector.
Click to expand...

The press may be getting better with the news that The S*n is in trouble, I did think of buying a copy for a loo roll replacement but then realised it's full of s*** anyway.
 
Rapscallion said:
I am wondering how much of the 'message not being passed on' was no 10's demand to not hear any bad news.
Ive now some people in authority that will in effect put their fingers in their ears if they are told something they do not want to hear. A message will come back telling you not to say such things in future and moderate your predictions.
It really wouldn't surprise me if that was the case in upper echelons of government...
Click to expand...
So you've nothing to base your assumption on, other than you've known some people in authority who have in effect put their fingers in their ears?
Sounds like you're clutching at straws trying to twist the content of the report in order to find a way of blaming the government.
 
Last edited:
nilagin said:
That's a bit rich, telling someone they're weak.
;)
Click to expand...
Don’t worry Neil, he knows what I mean even if you don’t, and you don’t upset me because I find you an interesting subject to study ;) .
 
sphexx said:
Don’t worry Neil, he knows what I mean even if you don’t, and you don’t upset me because I find you an interesting subject to study ;) .
Click to expand...
I knew exactly what you meant, hence the winking emoji. :)

Glad to educate. ;)
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
So you've nothing to base your assumption on, other than you've known some people in authority who have in effect put their fingers in their ears?
Sounds like you're clutching at straws trying to twist the content of the report in order to find a way of blaming the government.
Click to expand...

Hence my opening phrasing being 'I am wondering...'
 
nilagin said:
The only deaths that are comparable are those where people had no underlying health problems. Even when comparing healthy people, immune systems can differ. So no it isn't comparable because all the underlying factors are so varied.
Click to expand...

This.

There are lots of variables and as an example If 95% of South Koreans had no health issues and were under 60 they would have a lot less deaths than us if we had mainly 70+ people getting it.

Not to say we could have handled it better but I would like to see country comparisons of healthy under 60 year olds to see the real impacts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top