The virus. PPE. Part 1

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Raymond Lin said:
So, proof?

As it is “what you do” then you should have all of it at your fingertips.

As I said, happy to be proven wrong, evidence on all the videos online are all fake. I don’t need 100, let’s start with 1, like the 2 hospitals that they built. Prove to me that they are not hospitals. Prove to me that there are no doctors and nurses in there.
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I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to get proof on and what your actual point is?
 
Raymond Lin said:
So, proof?

As it is “what you do” then you should have all of it at your fingertips.

As I said, happy to be proven wrong, evidence on all the videos online are all fake. I don’t need 100, let’s start with 1, like the 2 hospitals that they built. Prove to me that they are not hospitals. Prove to me that there are no doctors and nurses in there.
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Oh dear, now you've moved the goal posts to make a point. Your initial claim was regarding videos of people dying in the street. It was that, my comment addressed, not building hospitals!

You really are an aggressive poster, I would block you but what else would I read to amuse myself?
 
jakeblu said:
I would block you but what else would I read to amuse myself?
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I've seen claims which suggest that the exchange of email between Boris Johnson and Donald Trump is funnier and even less related to reality... :naughty:
 
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sphexx said:
I think that’s a bit extreme :(. You can’t describe @jakeblu as “some random .. “ given he’s been a member here for years and personally I haven’t seen his posting wild assertions etc. I do think your question was reasonable but he may be unable to cite the source for confidentiality reasons etc :)
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i know many people
jakeblu said:
Pretty much all those videos were fake
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you said ALL those videos.

by all I would think you meant ALL that come out of China.

we can go back to just those if you like.

you are probably going to find some dated years ago. But not sure what that proves, that the virus is not deadly?

or proof that some one else (not the government) pretend that is real, so because if someone fake that video, then you can’t trust WHO figures.

what is the link here? I know people want to be sketptical on the Chinese, hell, I do too but I am not reading the Chinese news channel, I am watching CNN, BBC, MSNBC, Guardian, Independent, WHO sure.

but I should ignore all of them and believe people on here?
 
Raymond Lin said:
i trust the news (not just 1 channel or 1 paper but across a dozen others) more than just 1 guy on the internet.

sooo, proof?
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Problem is that media tend to copy each other or have the same source, as you can often see because the wording of their stories is often near identical.
 
Raymond Lin said:
i know many people


you said ALL those videos.

by all I would think you meant ALL that come out of China.

we can go back to just those if you like.

you are probably going to find some dated years ago. But not sure what that proves, that the virus is not deadly?

or proof that some one else (not the government) pretend that is real, so because if someone fake that video, then you can’t trust WHO figures.

what is the link here? I know people want to be sketptical on the Chinese, hell, I do too but I am not reading the Chinese news channel, I am watching CNN, BBC, MSNBC, Guardian, Independent, WHO sure.

but I should ignore all of them and believe people on here?
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Which of those organisations have said that people are dropping dead on the streets? As that is the claim that has been challenged.
 
OK just for clarity, you posted this.....
Raymond Lin said:
I think so, WHO is also there.

Before there were leaked videos of people dropping dead on streets, we don’t see that anymore.
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In response to that, I posted this

jakeblu said:
Pretty much all those videos were fake
Click to expand...

I hope thats cleared your confusion somewhat.
 
sphexx said:
Problem is that media tend to copy each other or have the same source.
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That's sad but true. In the days when print was the premier way to get the news there was a lot more diversity in sources and serious competition to get stories that stood up to competition. Now we have numpty talking to numpty on the internet in an echo chamber. :(
 
bass_junkie83 said:
Some further info I found out this morning on the situation in Italy.

As we already know, the virus affects the respiratory system. The solution seems to be that those with underlying problems who catch it are put on a respirator until the illness has passed, however there are not enough beds or respirators to go round. Decisions are having to be made as to who gets treatments and who doesn't based on expected length of life after recovery. Apparently people in their 60's are going without treatment to allow others to have it, its hardly an old age.

Not a direct result of the virus itself, my a friend and colleagues grandmother passed away last night. She cannot go home to be with her family.

For all the talk of it thinning the heard and it only taking those already close to the end, the situation if pretty s*** for those going through it.
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As has been reported in various places, we don’t have many beds let alone respirators.

U.K. has 2.5 beds per 1000 and Germany has 8 beds. Italy has more than us but is struggling for capacity.

It’s all “just in time stuff in U.K. hospitals. I was in hospital last Saturday (minor infection) to Tuesday and was in 3 different wards, others were being shunted about too — like one of those juggling acts with plates :). Not complaining, just saying, and this was Harrogate not one of the major conurbations where the situation is probably worse :(.
 
I think we need to remember that the Government is taking its advice from the medical experts which I think is the right thing to do. Why should politicians decide on the best course of action when they pretty much know nothing about it.
Interestingly on QT last week a Doctor stated that he would love to blame the Government for running down the NHS but the reality is no amount of preparation would put you in a good position to deal with something like this. He went on to say there is no cure as of yet.
 
sphexx said:
As has been reported in various places, we don’t have many beds let alone respirators.

U.K. has 2.5 beds per 1000 and Germany has 8 beds. Italy has more than us but is struggling for capacity.

It’s all “just in time stuff in U.K. hospitals. I was in hospital last Saturday (minor infection) to Tuesday and was in 3 different wards, others were being shunted about too — like one of those juggling acts with plates :). Not complaining, just saying, and this was Harrogate not one of the major conurbations where the situation is probably worse :(.
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I have looked in a variety of places to find out the number of hospital beds in the UK. I eventually realised that I was on a fool's errand. All sorts of figures exist in a variety of places. All the stats indicate the same thing ......... not nearly enough !

At the weekend the High Dependency unit at University Hospital had to be shut down due Covid 19 decontamination being necessary.
Last night a member of staff at Aintree Hospital, Liverpool became a casualty.

Liverpool Echo:-
"The hospital staff member was diagnosed with the virus on Monday morning after returning from Italy, taking the number of confirmed cases in the city to five.

Other staff members at the hospital who may have been in contact with the worker have been sent home to self-isolate.

The hospital trust is currently in the process of notifying patients and staff members who may have been in contact with the worker."

People returning from Italy is a big common denominator in UK infections.
 
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arclight said:
People returning from Italy is a big common denominator in UK infections.
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Oh yes, did you see the account of the British couple who flew to Hanoi and contacted lots of people in tourist places before they were isolated. They hadn’t been to Italy but a Vietnamese “socialite, her chauffeur and another aide” had come from Italy, joined their plane in London (symptomless) and developed COVID-19 on arrival in Hanoi, causing mayhem in Hanoi. The British couple (there were other Brit tourists too) were fairly complimentary about the efficiency of the Hanoi medics while complaining of the fairly primitive conditions of the isolation buildings and were worried about catching other bugs :(.
 
DK602 said:
I think we need to remember that the Government is taking its advice from the medical experts which I think is the right thing to do. Why should politicians decide on the best course of action when they pretty much know nothing about it.
Interestingly on QT last week a Doctor stated that he would love to blame the Government for running down the NHS but the reality is no amount of preparation would put you in a good position to deal with something like this. He went on to say there is no cure as of yet.
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Experts in what?

Nobody is an expert in this as it's never been here before. They had examples of what to do and what not to do and chose to ignore them. They're culpable.

I'll bet Italy is wishing they'd paid more attention to China now

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ghting-covid-19-outbreak-is-like-war-11954229

I'd agree with the Doctor's comment to some degree although the Government has to bear some of that too, they've known about the beds and staff shortages for some time.
 
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arclight said:
People returning from Italy is a big common denominator in UK infections.
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And how many of those people got in a taxi from the airport to go home or a shuttle bus from the airport to the car park with other travelers from other contries... The cat's out of the bag as they say.
 
dod said:
Experts in what?

Nobody is an expert in this as it's never been here before. They had examples of what to do and what not to do and chose to ignore them. They're culpable.

I'll bet Italy is wishing they'd paid more attention to China now

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ghting-covid-19-outbreak-is-like-war-11954229

I'd agree with the Doctor's comment to some degree although the Government has to bear some of that too, they've known about the beds and staff shortages for some time.
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You would be better directing your displeasure towards the medical experts of the country - it is they who are telling the Politicians what to do.

Some people can't let their political preferences go even under these circumstances which is quite sad IMO.
 
DK602 said:
You would be better directing your displeasure towards the medical experts of the country - it is they who are telling the Politicians what to do.

Some people can't let their political preferences go even under these circumstances which is quite sad IMO.
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My political preference for the last 38 years has been Conservative. .However, the situation here is that despite all the actual evidence in front of them they're choosing to put wealth before the health of the population. The "experts" are still sticking to the hand washing theory which worked so well in China,Italy and Iran obviously.

Some people can't let their political preferences go even under these circumstances which is quite sad IMO.
 
Harlequin565 said:
And how many of those people got in a taxi from the airport to go home or a shuttle bus from the airport to the car park with other travelers from other contries... The cat's out of the bag as they say.
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They are still arriving unscreened.
UK people are being told by the government to take a number of precautions to help prevent the country being saturated by the virus. That is all good and well, but the government is failing to turn off the tap to stop what is probably the largest flow..
 
arclight said:
They are still arriving unscreened.
UK people are being told by the government to take a number of precautions to help prevent the country being saturated by the virus. That is all good and well, but the government is failing to turn off the tap to stop what is probably the largest flow..
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And even when being told they should self isolate, they are then having to make their own way, potentially by public transport, home :(. They are being offered acclamation in an hotel at Heathrow apparently but it’s not compulsory :(.
 
arclight said:
They are still arriving unscreened.
UK people are being told by the government to take a number of precautions to help prevent the country being saturated by the virus. That is all good and well, but the government is failing to turn off the tap to stop what is probably the largest flow..
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Exactly. If you and I can see it why can't our politicians? British citizens should absolutely be allowed to come home. They should however also be put into mandatory quarantine to minimise the spread of this.
 
dod said:
My political preference for the last 38 years has been Conservative. .However, the situation here is that despite all the actual evidence in front of them they're choosing to put wealth before the health of the population. The "experts" are still sticking to the hand washing theory which worked so well in China,Italy and Iran obviously.

Some people can't let their political preferences go even under these circumstances which is quite sad IMO.
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I wondered why much of Europe and other parts of the world, are restricting gatherings ie sports matches, but here its business as usual. I'm guessing for the government, perhaps of any colour, the health of the economy is more important than a few hundred oaps prematurely passing away.
 
jakeblu said:
I wondered why much of Europe and other parts of the world, are restricting gatherings ie sports matches, but here its business as usual. I'm guessing for the government, perhaps of any colour, the health of the economy is more important than a few hundred oaps prematurely passing away.
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Fewer OAPs means a potential saving for the NHS & Social Care providers & saves a load of pension payments for the state and pension funds
 
broc said:
Fewer OAPs means a potential saving for the NHS & Social Care providers & saves a load of pension payments for the state and pension funds
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oooh! and just think of all those younger folk who might get a mild form of infection but are in the wills of those older relatives.................................who might pop their clogs! :rolleyes:o_O

Frankly whatever happens the number of deaths is unlikely, it seems, to exceed the losses during a worst case seasonal flu season but we never hear of such outrage as some sectors of the media are expressing now, when that happens!
 
dod said:
My political preference for the last 38 years has been Conservative. .However, the situation here is that despite all the actual evidence in front of them they're choosing to put wealth before the health of the population. The "experts" are still sticking to the hand washing theory which worked so well in China,Italy and Iran obviously.

Some people can't let their political preferences go even under these circumstances which is quite sad IMO.
Click to expand...

We have to listen to the experts who have looked at the evidence from other countries and decided on the best course of action then tell the Government what to do.
Like everything we then get the internet experts who actually know nothing but are more than happy to post how the experts are wrong!
Fortunately we can't imprison people in the UK against their will - it is up to the individual to take responsibility.
 
Box Brownie said:
oooh! and just think of all those younger folk who might get a mild form of infection but are in the wills of those older relatives.................................who might pop their clogs! :rolleyes:o_O

Frankly whatever happens the number of deaths is unlikely, it seems, to exceed the losses during a worst case seasonal flu season but we never hear of such outrage as some sectors of the media are expressing now, when that happens!
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Don't forget all the inheritance tax the Govt could receive from all those expensive houses in the south east being sold after their owners expire prematurely.......
 
tijuana taxi said:
Rest of the world should have refused entry to the Chinese from affected areas right at the start.
About time they were more choosy with what they eat, only just banned eating wild animals
Some truth in the saying the only thing with four legs they won't eat is a table
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This is an interesting article on that. Near the bottom there's a photo of a Civet cat and it's believed that Civets that kicked off the SARS virus in 2002/3. My mistake..no..it wasn't the Civets that started it, it was the practice of people (in this instance as it often the case...Chinese)eating ,hitherto, wild animals, in this case civets, that started it. A study showed that 70% of the animal carried the SARS virus and 40% of traders had anti-bodies to the virus.Seems the Chinese have learnt nothing from that outbreak, infact, the article states that civet soup is still a delicacy. It's not a feline but related to the mongoose family. Back in 2002/3 thousands were killed on the basis that it was their fault that SARS spread through the population.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ns-wildlife-trade-after-coronavirus-outbreak/

This is also a very informative article and gives hope that the traditional Chinese penchant for consuming wildlife may be stopped. Often the practice has been in the hope of 'curing' disease, infection,(typhoid being one example) high blood pressure ,food poisoning and the 'possession by spirits'....bad ones,I assume.. Also, arthritis,gout ,headaches et al. Tiger penis soup was on the menu for lost libido..so an aphrodisiac but in the likes of Vietnam,never China but that is now banned but can still be illegally bought in SE Asia. Same for rhino horn..also used for Chinese traditional medicines (which have a 3000 year history) to combat gout,fevers and by mixing with water or alcohol, as a'cure' for hangovers (the irony of it..ugh) but that is also used to create 'jewellery' and in Vietnam..a cure for cancer. As the horn is made of hair and keratin why not just chew on their fingernails ? Just as an aside, whilst reading up on this, I read that the original decimation of rhino populations was due to uncontrolled trophy hunting during the European colonial era.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/2...s-wild-animals-coronavirus-zoonotic-diseases/

What can be concluded from this restricted example of human activity is that we are species that the world could have done without. We're the only species not required by eco-systems. Here's something to ponder. We make up .01% of all life yet we've destroyed 83% of wildlife and half of all plant life which represents 83% of life. Only 1% of life exists in the oceans.Only livestock kept by us abounds.Farmed poultry makes up 70% of all bird and 60% of all mammals are are livestock,mostly cattle and pigs, with humans at 36% so 96% of all mammals comprise of livestock and humans with only 4% wild mammals.ofBacteria accounts for13%. Half of the world's animals are thought to have been lost in the last 50 years and a report by IPBES found that one million species are under threat of extinction. According to some scientists we are experiencing the sixth mass extinction..

For Creationists is this really what their god envisaged when he 'created' mankind ? Who in their right mind, omnipotent, omnipresent or not, would create something that would eventually destroy so much, if not all eventually, of that created before ? Always like to get a dig in on that issue because on balance, not to mention logic, the concept is preposterous.

IPBES overview. A thoroughly depressing read.

https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/06/n...stroying-the-planet-at-an-unprecedented-rate/

Meanwhile, we now have yet another disastrous consequence of erroneous human activity.
 
broc said:
Fewer OAPs means a potential saving for the NHS & Social Care providers & saves a load of pension payments for the state and pension funds
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Thanks for that thought. I’ve been resisting the temptation to say let’s hope it’s prolonged and brings Trump’s downfall. I suspect people will find an antiviral drug that works and a vaccine will be produced earlier than anyone expects, with everyone except him working their socks off, and he’ll be able to say “told you it wasn’t so bad”. Millennium bug all over again :(.
 
jakeblu said:
I wondered why much of Europe and other parts of the world, are restricting gatherings ie sports matches, but here its business as usual. I'm guessing for the government, perhaps of any colour, the health of the economy is more important than a few hundred oaps prematurely passing away.
Click to expand...


I was talking to a golf buddy about just this earlier today. His wife is a GP and the thinking behind allowing football to go ahead is that is it were held behind closed doors, the supporters would herd together in pubs and such close proximity in enclosed spaces would be a far greater risk than being out in the (relatively) fresh air and sunlight.
 
JohnC6 said:
This is an interesting article on that. Near the bottom there's a photo of a Civet cat and it's believed that Civets that kicked off the SARS virus in 2002/3. My mistake..no..it wasn't the Civets that started it, it was the practice of people (in this instance as it often the case...Chinese)eating ,hitherto, wild animals, in this case civets, that started it. A study showed that 70% of the animal carried the SARS virus and 40% of traders had anti-bodies to the virus.Seems the Chinese have learnt nothing from that outbreak, infact, the article states that civet soup is still a delicacy. It's not a feline but related to the mongoose family. Back in 2002/3 thousands were killed on the basis that it was their fault that SARS spread through the population.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ns-wildlife-trade-after-coronavirus-outbreak/

This is also a very informative article and gives hope that the traditional Chinese penchant for consuming wildlife may be stopped. Often the practice has been in the hope of 'curing' disease, infection,(typhoid being one example) high blood pressure ,food poisoning and the 'possession by spirits'....bad ones,I assume.. Also, arthritis,gout ,headaches et al. Tiger penis soup was on the menu for lost libido..so an aphrodisiac but in the likes of Vietnam,never China but that is now banned but can still be illegally bought in SE Asia. Same for rhino horn..also used for Chinese traditional medicines (which have a 3000 year history) to combat gout,fevers and by mixing with water or alcohol, as a'cure' for hangovers (the irony of it..ugh) but that is also used to create 'jewellery' and in Vietnam..a cure for cancer. As the horn is made of hair and keratin why not just chew on their fingernails ? Just as an aside, whilst reading up on this, I read that the original decimation of rhino populations was due to uncontrolled trophy hunting during the European colonial era.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/2...s-wild-animals-coronavirus-zoonotic-diseases/

What can be concluded from this restricted example of human activity is that we are species that the world could have done without. We're the only species not required by eco-systems. Here's something to ponder. We make up .01% of all life yet we've destroyed 83% of wildlife and half of all plant life which represents 83% of life. Only 1% of life exists in the oceans.Only livestock kept by us abounds.Farmed poultry makes up 70% of all bird and 60% of all mammals are are livestock,mostly cattle and pigs, with humans at 36% so 96% of all mammals comprise of livestock and humans with only 4% wild mammals.ofBacteria accounts for13%. Half of the world's animals are thought to have been lost in the last 50 years and a report by IPBES found that one million species are under threat of extinction. According to some scientists we are experiencing the sixth mass extinction..

For Creationists is this really what their god envisaged when he 'created' mankind ? Who in their right mind, omnipotent, omnipresent or not, would create something that would eventually destroy so much, if not all eventually, of that created before ? Always like to get a dig in on that issue because on balance, not to mention logic, the concept is preposterous.

IPBES overview. A thoroughly depressing read.

https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/06/n...stroying-the-planet-at-an-unprecedented-rate/

Meanwhile, we now have yet another disastrous consequence of erroneous human activity.
Click to expand...

John - I'm afraid your post goes a bit .......

99% of species that have inhabited the planet have become extinct and the overwhelming majority of this happened before humans existed so blaming humans for all the woes is not accurate.
I think you will also find that humans are the only animals that actively prevent the extinction of other species.

Let's not hate our species - there is a lot of b******t spoken about humans.
 
sphexx said:
Thanks for that thought. I’ve been resisting the temptation to say let’s hope it’s prolonged and brings Trump’s downfall. I suspect people will find an antiviral drug that works and a vaccine will be produced earlier than anyone expects, with everyone except him working their socks off, and he’ll be able to say “told you it wasn’t so bad”. Millennium bug all over again :(.
Click to expand...

To wish the death of someone is actually quite vile & offensive.
 
So is Trump.
 
JohnC6 said:
This is an interesting article on that. Near the bottom there's a photo of a Civet cat and it's believed that Civets that kicked off the SARS virus in 2002/3. My mistake..no..it wasn't the Civets that started it, it was the practice of people (in this instance as it often the case...Chinese)eating ,hitherto, wild animals, in this case civets, that started it. A study showed that 70% of the animal carried the SARS virus and 40% of traders had anti-bodies to the virus.Seems the Chinese have learnt nothing from that outbreak, infact, the article states that civet soup is still a delicacy. It's not a feline but related to the mongoose family. Back in 2002/3 thousands were killed on the basis that it was their fault that SARS spread through the population.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ns-wildlife-trade-after-coronavirus-outbreak/

This is also a very informative article and gives hope that the traditional Chinese penchant for consuming wildlife may be stopped. Often the practice has been in the hope of 'curing' disease, infection,(typhoid being one example) high blood pressure ,food poisoning and the 'possession by spirits'....bad ones,I assume.. Also, arthritis,gout ,headaches et al. Tiger penis soup was on the menu for lost libido..so an aphrodisiac but in the likes of Vietnam,never China but that is now banned but can still be illegally bought in SE Asia. Same for rhino horn..also used for Chinese traditional medicines (which have a 3000 year history) to combat gout,fevers and by mixing with water or alcohol, as a'cure' for hangovers (the irony of it..ugh) but that is also used to create 'jewellery' and in Vietnam..a cure for cancer. As the horn is made of hair and keratin why not just chew on their fingernails ? Just as an aside, whilst reading up on this, I read that the original decimation of rhino populations was due to uncontrolled trophy hunting during the European colonial era.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/2...s-wild-animals-coronavirus-zoonotic-diseases/

What can be concluded from this restricted example of human activity is that we are species that the world could have done without. We're the only species not required by eco-systems. Here's something to ponder. We make up .01% of all life yet we've destroyed 83% of wildlife and half of all plant life which represents 83% of life. Only 1% of life exists in the oceans.Only livestock kept by us abounds.Farmed poultry makes up 70% of all bird and 60% of all mammals are are livestock,mostly cattle and pigs, with humans at 36% so 96% of all mammals comprise of livestock and humans with only 4% wild mammals.ofBacteria accounts for13%. Half of the world's animals are thought to have been lost in the last 50 years and a report by IPBES found that one million species are under threat of extinction. According to some scientists we are experiencing the sixth mass extinction..

For Creationists is this really what their god envisaged when he 'created' mankind ? Who in their right mind, omnipotent, omnipresent or not, would create something that would eventually destroy so much, if not all eventually, of that created before ? Always like to get a dig in on that issue because on balance, not to mention logic, the concept is preposterous.

IPBES overview. A thoroughly depressing read.

https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/06/n...stroying-the-planet-at-an-unprecedented-rate/

Meanwhile, we now have yet another disastrous consequence of erroneous human activity.
Click to expand...
Interesting article that Nat Geo one, John. Thanks. They don’t mention it but the Chinese also think freshly killed meat is safer than refrigerated or frozen and you can see that would be true pre-industrialisation.
 
DK602 said:
Why screening won't help:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/why-airport-screening-wont-stop-spread-coronavirus
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Well the first thing I'd say about that is "who?" and I say that as there's nothing to indicate who he is other than a writer for a magazine?

The other big question really is the actual articles title is in itself sensationalist. No one has said screening will stop the spread, it can help limit and delay the spread however (in fact he goes on to say exactly that), but it's not going to sell as much as the sensationalist title used.

To go back to whoever was using the road deaths analogy the other day, he may have well have written "Why seatbelts wont stop automobile deaths."

No screening is 100%, none, for anything.

Edit to add: Additionally, you write "won't help" and he writes "won't stop" is itself contradictory.
 
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