The virus. PPE. Part 1

[jakeblu]

Facts in isolation are indeed facts. Using facts to make some sort of correalation between something like road deaths and coronavirus is idiotic.

He's not making a correlation, there's no claim that coronavirus and road deaths are linked. What he's trying to do is give the deaths from this virus some perspective.

 

[sphexx]

Let’s not get too serious, here’s some sound medical advice from a letter writer in The Guardian today:
“I eat hot cross buns quite often and I rarely get ill. The contradiction between my atheism and the Christian symbol probably confuses the microbes.”

 

[sphexx]

He's not making a correlation, there's no claim that coronavirus and road deaths are linked. What he's trying to do is give the deaths from this virus some perspective.

Yes but he’s failing, it’s apples and oranges again. Why not compare it to the overall death rate of the whole of earth’s human population which is I believe 100%

 

[tijuana taxi]

Does quarantine in Italian mean run for the hills?

Wasn't long ago they were whinging about how Venice was overrun with tourists, be careful what you wish for.

 

[jakeblu]

Yes but he’s failing, it’s apples and oranges again. Why not compare it to the overall death rate of the whole of earth’s human population which is I believe 100%

I didn't say it was a valid comparison, just pointing out its not a correlation

 

[sphexx]

I didn't say it was a valid comparison, just pointing out its not a correlation

True!

 

[Donnie]

He's not making a correlation, there's no claim that coronavirus and road deaths are linked. What he's trying to do is give the deaths from this virus some perspective.

Yes but he’s failing, it’s apples and oranges again. Why not compare it to the overall death rate of the whole of earth’s human population which is I believe 100%

I didn't say it was a valid comparison, just pointing out its not a correlation

You are right of course, I meant comparison rather than correlation. 'Twas a brainfart.

 

[bass_junkie83]

Come into the office today and it is notably quieter than normal.
I am in a team of 20, 12 of which are Italian. Fortunately all but one of them hasn't returned to Italy recently so no concerns for them. However it is having a toll on some knowing that they will likely not be able to return to see family over Easter, others have sick elderly family that they are unable to return to visit so despite being not being a direct result of the virus itself, it's not nice to see they way it is affecting them.

One has been in Italy recently and only returned at the weekend and is currently self isolating/working from home. Despite the massive differences in the number of cases between Italy and the UK, he says that he felt it was being dealt with much better in Italy. Lots of measures are being taken, lock-downs, travel restrictions, it all seems to be taken very seriously, there was only 10 people on his flight back here. in his words, a complete contrast to how it is being handles in the UK and he expects the situation to get much worse.

 

[the black fox]

my feelings exactly .. we seem to be under the impression its not going to be bad here .. about time this COBRA lot got there fingers out of there arses .and did something ..

the old saying still hold good PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

It's not going to change anything though.
If Italy have handled it so much better than us, why are they the worst in Europe for cases and deaths?
Would you rather be in Italy right now?
Lock yourself in the house and have absolutely no contact whatsoever with the outside world and you may have a chance of avoiding it, but it's probably already too late.

 

[nilagin]

It's not going to change anything though.
If Italy have handled it so much better than us, why are they the worst in Europe for cases and deaths?
Would you rather be in Italy right now?

Also if they are handling it so much better, why are they allowing people to leave the country?

 

[sphexx]

It's not going to change anything though.
If Italy have handled it so much better than us, why are they the worst in Europe for cases and deaths?
Would you rather be in Italy right now?

It spread there during the ”silent” period when no one knew it had arrived in Europe. Some country is always going to be the “worst” or the “best” by “chance” in the early stages stages of this sort of thing. The Italians, unlike U.K., are good at exporting and you will notice the outbreak is in the principal industrial area. Maybe it’s surprising it wasn’t Germany as I think that they are the EU country that has the highest trade with China.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

Also if they are handling it so much better, why are they allowing people to leave the country?

And they gave everyone 24hrs notice of the lockdown, and didn't anticipate all the southerners working up north would try to go home?
Yeah, they're doing a great job....

 

[sphexx]

Now that the super-rich high net worth people* are panicking and crashing share prices I don’t see anyone criticising them as stupid but it isn’t much different from ordinary folk stockpiling loo paper .

* Yeah, yeah, pension organisations etc etc but I doubt they are the speculators.

 

[bass_junkie83]

It's not going to change anything though.
If Italy have handled it so much better than us, why are they the worst in Europe for cases and deaths?
Would you rather be in Italy right now?
Lock yourself in the house and have absolutely no contact whatsoever with the outside world and you may have a chance of avoiding it, but it's probably already too late.

From what I have been hearing they handled it very badly at the beginning. People were very blase about it, it;s just another flu like virus, what can you do, carrry on as normal etc. etc.

It's only once it really took hold that they started taking it seriously. We could learn from other peoples mistakes, but it isn't looking likely.

I am not doom mongering, I will be fine regardless. I would not be surprised if I get it eventually due to working in a city, commuting on crowded trains etc. I'm sure it will be annoying but that's it, I will come out the side of it with no lasting effects I expect. However there are people I could pass it onto that might not fare so well. Elderly grandparents, my wife has an underlying heart conditions, we have a newborn (It seems to not be too serious for younger people but I have not heard how it may affect new babies), and that just people I know I may pass it on to.

So if there are simple measures to reduce risk of picking up this or any other illness and passing it on then why would you not?

 

[bass_junkie83]

Also if they are handling it so much better, why are they allowing people to leave the country?

I believe they are restricting who leaves. Italians who live in Italy were not being allowed on flights. My colleague has an indefinite right to remain in the UK, therefore the UK is his official country of residence and so the Italian authorities have no mechanism to stop him leaving, hence there being only 10 people on the flight.

Landing in the UK he says that there were no measures to check those coming into the country.

 

[broc]

Also if they are handling it so much better, why are they allowing people to leave the country?

Getting rid of people who might be/ become infected reduces the load on their health service? Let them be cared for by the country they are heading off to.

 

[nilagin]

Getting rid of people who might be/ become infected reduces the load on their health service? Let them be cared for by the country they are heading off to.

Meanwhile there is the chance they infect people on the way out.

Come into the office today and it is notably quieter than normal.
I am in a team of 20, 12 of which are Italian. Fortunately all but one of them hasn't returned to Italy recently so no concerns for them. However it is having a toll on some knowing that they will likely not be able to return to see family over Easter, others have sick elderly family that they are unable to return to visit so despite being not being a direct result of the virus itself, it's not nice to see they way it is affecting them.

One has been in Italy recently and only returned at the weekend and is currently self isolating/working from home. Despite the massive differences in the number of cases between Italy and the UK, he says that he felt it was being dealt with much better in Italy. Lots of measures are being taken, lock-downs, travel restrictions, it all seems to be taken very seriously, there was only 10 people on his flight back here. in his words, a complete contrast to how it is being handles in the UK and he expects the situation to get much worse.

It's all well and good self isolating and working from home, but what about everything or everyone they came into contact with between leaving Italy and getting home?

 

[arclight]

I believe they are restricting who leaves. Italians who live in Italy were not being allowed on flights. My colleague has an indefinite right to remain in the UK, therefore the UK is his official country of residence and so the Italian authorities have no mechanism to stop him leaving, hence there being only 10 people on the flight.

Landing in the UK he says that there were no measures to check those coming into the country.

Planes from Milan and Venice arrived in a number of UK airports yesterday. There were not so much as cursory checks on the passengers to find out if any may have been ill/check temps. Arrivals from these two cities in the so called "quarantined" continue today. That makes no sense and given that the majority of infections in the UK have been traced to people who were in North Italy it becomes downright irresponsible not to check out incoming travellers.
To have this sort of screening failure on a day where it has taken only one infected member of medical staff to bring about the closure of the high dependency unit at Southampton University Hospital is dreadful.
Obviously no amount of screening will filter out all Covid 19 carriers, but it makes sense to find as many as possible. To simply stand by and allow hundreds of people to arrive from the biggest Covid 19 hotspot outside of China is extraordinarily wreckless.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

sphexx ,I'm a bit late commming back to you but yes I did try Paracetamol which didn't do much for the temperature but did definatley seem to stop me feeling cold but dripping with sweat at the same time This way I could at least sleep with the windows open and no cover on my bed.

 

[sphexx]

sphexx ,I'm a bit late commming back to you but yes I did try Paracetamol which didn't do much for the temperature but did definatley seem to stop me feeling cold but dripping with sweat at the same time This way I could at least sleep with the windows open and no cover on my bed.

That’s a bit odd because paracetamol is usually very effective in reducing temperature, my experience through two long (about 2 weeks) infections, but also is the usual advice, usually 2 every 4 hours I think.
I confess that when I was young, a smoker, lived in a damp house, I got bronchitis nearly every winter and used to let my temperature go up to 104°F before taking anything as I regarded it as the body’s natural defence — I’m still here, just so ... .

 

[sphexx]

Planes from Milan and Venice arrived in a number of UK airports yesterday. There were not so much as cursory checks on the passengers to find out if any may have been ill/check temps. Arrivals from these two cities in the so called "quarantined" continue today. That makes no sense and given that the majority of infections in the UK have been traced to people who were in North Italy it becomes downright irresponsible not to check out incoming travellers.
To have this sort of screening failure on a day where it has taken only one infected member of medical staff to bring about the closure of the high dependency unit at Southampton University Hospital is dreadful.
Obviously no amount of screening will filter out all Covid 19 carriers, but it makes sense to find as many as possible. To simply stand by and allow hundreds of people to arrive from the biggest Covid 19 hotspot outside of China is extraordinarily wreckless.

Yeah but this is Brexit Britain we‘re living in. Boris has a history of going off on incognito flights to Italy so maybe that’s where he’s been this weekend so he couldn’t have the emergency COBRA meeting until today

 

[bass_junkie83]

Meanwhile there is the chance they infect people on the way out.


It's all well and good self isolating and working from home, but what about everything or everyone they came into contact with between leaving Italy and getting home?

I am by no means any kind of authority on the matter, only repeating some first hand anecdotal evidence which may be of interest in this thread. But I would have thought following all the current advice would go a long way. Regular washing of hands with sanitising gel and avoiding touching surfaces unnecessarily and also your face, if you have a cough, cough into a tissue and dispose properly, avoid direct contact with other people, don't shake the pilots hand as you get off the plane.

If you do have it you can't completely stop yourself spreading it, but you can do things to reduce it. That in conjunction with other people taking the same measures will then reduce their chances of picking up what may have been missed. Of course nit will never be 100% effective but surely doing simple things to minimise the spread is better than not. I think some people would advocate the extreme opposite and suggest we all go around French kissing every stranger we come by and get this thing over and done with ASAP.

Planes from Milan and Venice arrived in a number of UK airports yesterday. There were not so much as cursory checks on the passengers to find out if any may have been ill/check temps. Arrivals from these two cities in the so called "quarantined" continue today. That makes no sense and given that the majority of infections in the UK have been traced to people who were in North Italy it becomes downright irresponsible not to check out incoming travellers.
To have this sort of screening failure on a day where it has taken only one infected member of medical staff to bring about the closure of the high dependency unit at Southampton University Hospital is dreadful.
Obviously no amount of screening will filter out all Covid 19 carriers, but it makes sense to find as many as possible. To simply stand by and allow hundreds of people to arrive from the biggest Covid 19 hotspot outside of China is extraordinarily wreckless.

That seems to reflect what I have been hearing, and was the attitude in Italy not so long ago.

 

[Donnie]

Planes from Milan and Venice arrived in a number of UK airports yesterday. There were not so much as cursory checks on the passengers to find out if any may have been ill/check temps. Arrivals from these two cities in the so called "quarantined" continue today. That makes no sense and given that the majority of infections in the UK have been traced to people who were in North Italy it becomes downright irresponsible not to check out incoming travellers.
To have this sort of screening failure on a day where it has taken only one infected member of medical staff to bring about the closure of the high dependency unit at Southampton University Hospital is dreadful.

Indeed, just wait until it hits the first neonatal intensive care unit!

But I would have thought following all the current advice would go a long way. Regular washing of hands with sanitising gel and avoiding touching surfaces unnecessarily and also your face, if you have a cough, cough into a tissue and dispose properly, avoid direct contact with other people, don't shake the pilots hand as you get off the plane.

But you're repeating the wrong advice, it's regular washing of hands with soap and water, not sanitising gel.

If you do have it you can't completely stop yourself spreading it, but you can do things to reduce it. That in conjunction with other people taking the same measures will then reduce their chances of picking up what may have been missed. Of course nit will never be 100% effective but surely doing simple things to minimise the spread is better than not. I think some people would advocate the extreme opposite and suggest we all go around French kissing every stranger we come by and get this thing over and done with ASAP.


That seems to reflect what I have been hearing, and was the attitude in Italy not so long ago.

Indeed, some idiots have been espousing the idea of having coronavirus parties to get it out there :-(

 

[bass_junkie83]

But you're repeating the wrong advice, it's regular washing of hands with soap and water, not sanitising gel.

I know all the advise I have heard is to regularly wash your hands, but I certainly haven't heard anyone reputable advising to not use hand gel.


Sally Bloomfield, a professor at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, says that viruses are much more resistant to disinfectants than bacteria. Luckily, she says, coronavirus is an envelope virus, meaning it has a coating around it which the alcohol can attack, thereby eliminating the threat. (Norovirus and rhinovirus, by contrast, do not).

...

Bloomfield’s advice is to wash your hands with soap and water – or, if that is not possible, use hand gel – when you return to your “safe place”, by which she means your home, your desk or work station, or your seat on the train or plane, for example. Avoid touching anything you don’t need to touch, and be mindful of what you do touch – such as door handles and bus poles – and if you can’t wash your hands or use gel after coming into contact with things, do not touch your face.

If you are on a long journey using air travel for example there are many surfaces you might touch along the way without the opportunity to go and wash your hands with soap and water. Handrails on the bus taking you from the gate to the plane, the stair handrail getting onto the plane, opening overhead lockers, seat back trays etc. The virus may not live long on surfaces, but if the person in front of you has it, coughs into their hand, touches a hand rail and then you grab it then regularly sanitising your hands and not touching your face will give you some protection.

Just in my office for example, when I go to the toilet I can give my hands a good wash, but I have three sets of doors to pull open before I get back to my desk. Fortunately we have hand gel pumps scattered about with gay abandon, about every 3m around the office, I can literally see about 50 of them without getting out of my chair.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

Fortunately we have hand gel pumps scattered about with gay abandon, about every 3m around the office, I can literally see about 50 of them without

I'm surprised they've not been nicked
5 grands worth there....

 

[Donnie]

I know all the advise I have heard is to regularly wash your hands, but I certainly haven't heard anyone reputable advising to not use hand gel.

I never said that anyone advised not using hand gel? I said what you said about using it as first line was inaccurate.

Just in my office for example, when I go to the toilet I can give my hands a good wash, but I have three sets of doors to pull open before I get back to my desk. Fortunately we have hand gel pumps scattered about with gay abandon, about every 3m around the office, I can literally see about 50 of them without getting out of my chair.

Im assuming that the hand gel has a 60% or greater alcohol content?

 

[bass_junkie83]

I'm surprised they've not been nicked
5 grands worth there....

There is definitely less around today than there was on Friday!

Im assuming that the hand gel has a 60% or greater alcohol content?

62%. Not great with coke but surprisingly nice with lemonade.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

62%. Not great with coke but surprisingly nice with lemonade.

Apparently they taste better with mouthwash

 

[arclight]

I know all the advise I have heard is to regularly wash your hands, but I certainly haven't heard anyone reputable advising to not use hand gel.


Sally Bloomfield, a professor at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, says that viruses are much more resistant to disinfectants than bacteria. Luckily, she says, coronavirus is an envelope virus, meaning it has a coating around it which the alcohol can attack, thereby eliminating the threat. (Norovirus and rhinovirus, by contrast, do not).

...

Bloomfield’s advice is to wash your hands with soap and water – or, if that is not possible, use hand gel – when you return to your “safe place”, by which she means your home, your desk or work station, or your seat on the train or plane, for example. Avoid touching anything you don’t need to touch, and be mindful of what you do touch – such as door handles and bus poles – and if you can’t wash your hands or use gel after coming into contact with things, do not touch your face.

If you are on a long journey using air travel for example there are many surfaces you might touch along the way without the opportunity to go and wash your hands with soap and water. Handrails on the bus taking you from the gate to the plane, the stair handrail getting onto the plane, opening overhead lockers, seat back trays etc. The virus may not live long on surfaces, but if the person in front of you has it, coughs into their hand, touches a hand rail and then you grab it then regularly sanitising your hands and not touching your face will give you some protection.

Just in my office for example, when I go to the toilet I can give my hands a good wash, but I have three sets of doors to pull open before I get back to my desk. Fortunately we have hand gel pumps scattered about with gay abandon, about every 3m around the office, I can literally see about 50 of them without getting out of my chair.

Sally Bloomfield's advice is eminently sensible. The scenario's described by Dave where there are multiple repeated infection risks are abundant. Supermarkets have all sorts of problems where the goods on display are being touched (or coughed / sneezed over) by lots of people throughout a day have to be a serious risk. There is also a risk from handling cash/touching checkout keypads in shops and ATM's. Those situations are probably best dealt with by wearing disposable gloves.

 

[sphexx]

I think some people would advocate the extreme opposite and suggest we all go around French kissing every stranger we come by and get this thing over and done with ASAP.

A cunning plan! Though I think you are more likely to catch Herpes simplex or worse that way, unless the usual meaning of “French kiss” has changed a lot in recent years

 

[dod]

My views on quarantine is it is just the same as imprisoning someone especially if we have no cure. The army have extremely well trained medical staff and this virus could easily overwhelm the NHS.

There are still many other critical cases happening everyday that will still require medical help from the NHS (heart attacks etc.)

I think you're confusing containment and delay.

This Government is still maintaining that we're in the contain phase and acting on that presumption. In other words it's possible to prevent further spread.

At the same time they're stating they expect significant additional spread but not taking appropriate actions to delay that spread. It's a confused and confusing strategy which I suspect will come back to bite them on the arse.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

A cunning plan! Though I think you are more likely to catch Herpes simplex or worse that way, unless the usual meaning of “French kiss” has changed a lot in recent years

Anyone tries to French kiss me, they'll be receiving a Glasgow kiss....

 

[the black fox]

Anyone tries to French kiss me, they'll be receiving a Glasgow kiss....

Or me ,unless of course she’ s got long legs and huge tits at least I’ll die happy

 

[MatBin]

Or me ,unless of course she’ s got long legs and huge tits at least I’ll die happy

Beware what you wish for these days, could be someone off RuPaul or Transgender
(I think I'll duck now as I can see a lot of incoming flack - again).

 

[broc]

The link below suggests travellers returning from affected areas in Northern Italy should self isolate even if they are showing no symptoms. The information is provided by Public Health England and Department of Health and Social Care.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public#returning-travellers

At the moment the NHS 111 helpdesk & website does not include this same advice.

As a consequence my sons girlfriend (she returned from Venice yesterday) has been told she must return to work tomorrow in a large department store...... the store management appear to be ignoring the Govt advice in favour of what the NHS website is saying.

I hope she coughs all over the manager.........

 

[Raymond Lin]

The link below suggests travellers returning from affected areas in Northern Italy should self isolate even if they are showing no symptoms. The information is provided by Public Health England and Department of Health and Social Care.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public#returning-travellers

At the moment the NHS 111 helpdesk & website does not include this same advice.

As a consequence my sons girlfriend (she returned from Venice yesterday) has been told she must return to work tomorrow in a large department store...... the store management appear to be ignoring the Govt advice in favour of what the NHS website is saying.

I hope she coughs all over the manager.........

This is why this disease will not be contained in the west.

 

[sphexx]

The link below suggests travellers returning from affected areas in Northern Italy should self isolate even if they are showing no symptoms. The information is provided by Public Health England and Department of Health and Social Care.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public#returning-travellers

At the moment the NHS 111 helpdesk & website does not include this same advice.

As a consequence my sons girlfriend (she returned from Venice yesterday) has been told she must return to work tomorrow in a large department store...... the store management appear to be ignoring the Govt advice in favour of what the NHS website is saying.

I hope she coughs all over the manager.........

It doesn’t “suggest” it mandates that such people stay away etc!

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

The link below suggests travellers returning from affected areas in Northern Italy should self isolate even if they are showing no symptoms. The information is provided by Public Health England and Department of Health and Social Care.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public#returning-travellers

At the moment the NHS 111 helpdesk & website does not include this same advice.

As a consequence my sons girlfriend (she returned from Venice yesterday) has been told she must return to work tomorrow in a large department store...... the store management appear to be ignoring the Govt advice in favour of what the NHS website is saying.

I hope she coughs all over the manager.........

Similar thing happened in my brother in law's work.
Guy returned from Italy and boss told him he must come in.
Another member of staff complained to HR and the guy got sent home and told to self isolate.

 

[munch]

Don't want to be seen to cause arguments but just discussion:

We have no cure for this (at the moment) so I don't see why hard pressed NHS workers should be involved in this quarantine - sure the army would be better placed?

The problem is that a lot of the regular army medics already do some of their work within the NHS and a fair proportion of what makes up the military medical services comes from Territorial/reservists.