The recent new 'pro compacts' on the market

combat squirrel

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As title, 3 new 'pro compacts' are out on the market, ones that have caught my eye are:

Sigma DP2

Panasonic LX3

Panasonic LX 150

And ultra compacts:

(not recent) canon ixus 90

Panasonic FX35

What do you guys reckon to them? im after a really really good camera, that I can take anywhere in a coat pocket or backpack, an ultra slim would be good for social occasions, but obviously image quality suffers, the sigma DP2 intrigues for obvious reasons, have they fixed the issues from version 1 ? Not enough reviews out right now ! we need some :D

The LX3 is getting rave reviews, however is large, the 150 looks great, and a compact size, 14mp though ! ouch

Any thoughts on the subject from you lot would be great :)
 
I have recently got the Panasonic LX3 and am really happy with it. Great little camera. Obviously not the ultra slim that you may want but IQ is great and the manual controls make it really usable for anyone used to a DSLR.

Chris :)
 
The Canon G10 is the only "Pro" compact available today that I'd consider, and even then I'm concerned regarding the high ISO noise performance. Three things a "Pro" compact needs to have as a minimum - the ability to shoot to raw format, full manual control (easily accessed and adjusted) and a hotshoe for an external flash. I'd also like a constant aperture zoom so that manual exposure actually works properly, but I guess that's a pipedream.

I have considered the LX3 and dismissed it. Right now the only compact remaining on my shortlist is the G10 and I'm not overwhelmed by that. I may get one in the future but for the time being I'm sticking with DSLRs.
 
The Canon G10 is the only "Pro" compact available today that I'd consider, and even then I'm concerned regarding the high ISO noise performance. Three things a "Pro" compact needs to have as a minimum - the ability to shoot to raw format, full manual control (easily accessed and adjusted) and a hotshoe for an external flash. I'd also like a constant aperture zoom so that manual exposure actually works properly, but I guess that's a pipedream.

I have considered the LX3 and dismissed it. Right now the only compact remaining on my shortlist is the G10 and I'm not overwhelmed by that. I may get one in the future but for the time being I'm sticking with DSLRs.

The LX3 hits all three things that you have mentioned as must have's for a "Pro" compact. I also use my Nikon SB800 speedlight on it. Works for me :thumbs:

Chris :)
 
It may include those things but there is more to it than that. As one example, I absolutely hate that lens cap design. It's not something I would want to live with.

Also, as a Canon shooter, it makes sense to me to have full integration between the compact and my flash guns. Now if the LX3 was clearly superior in performance to the G10 I might be swayed the other way, but I don't see any superiority in the reviews, so today at least the G10 wins it for me. However, I'd much rather have 8MP and better performance at higher ISOs. If I want a 15MP image I'll shoot with my 50D. I have no idea why anyone would think I'd want almost 15MP from a compact. It makes no sense to me.

Back to the LX3, I did read somewhere that its raw files were quite heavily processed within the camera, to conceal severe lens distorions at the wide angle end. If true, I don't regard that as being a terribly "raw" file. Check this out....

http://www.seriouscompacts.com/2008/10/panasonic-lx3-lens-distortion.html

And another thing about the LX3 - can its raw files be processed Lightroom? My searches so far say not. Mind you, the same appears to be true for the G10 - another reason not to buy one - yet, if ever - but at least I do use DPP, so I wouldn't have to get to grips with yet another software package.
 
I have no idea why anyone would thing I'd want almost 15MP from a compact. It makes no sense to me.

Of course it wouldn't, because you and I both know MPs aren't everything lol, but to the average consumer they see a high MP count and assume it means that it's better than the one next to it sat at only 8mp!
 
Of course it wouldn't, because you and I both know MPs aren't everything lol, but to the average consumer they see a high MP count and assume it means that it's better than the one next to it sat at only 8mp!

Well it's a pity that the manufacturers see fit to tar their "Pro" compacts with the same brush that limits the performance of their consumer models. I do wish the manufacturers would produce cameras that photographers want and not cameras that the marketing department wants. Let them stick 30MP into the low end cams, for all I care, but for crying out loud, why wreck the top end compacts?
 
Too right, I had an old finepix A403...and it beat the snot out of my mate's shiny cybershot with 12mp or something stupid like that...it dealt with having beer poured over it too while on the lash in Thailand :D
 
Sadly it didn't survive going over the side of the dive boat :(
 
hmmm interesting points, I guess the G10 is -just- about edging it, but the LX3 is also about half as thin as it physically, which is a good plus point. Its so close to call im agonizing over it,lol.

Whens m4/3 and dp2 hitting the market ? they may sway me some more, but guess ill have to just think about it ! lol

2nd hand g9 another poss? lol
 
I have no idea why anyone would think I'd want almost 15MP from a compact. It makes no sense to me.

It's not the quantity , it's the quality that counts :thinking:.......maybe


Are the new megapixel sensors in compacts better or worse than the pixels I've got in my 5 year old 300D?? just how does the noise performance of a 15Mpixel P&S compare to the 'older' generation of DSLR's ???
 
I have a DP1, it is great for landscapes but has lots of limitations. I have played with a G9 and it is a far more usable camera but I wouldn't switch. The image quality is fantastic for a compact.
 
There is a brand new review of the Canon G10 (14.7 MP) posted today on DPReview....

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong10/page24.asp

To quote from the conclusions....

- Some noise visible even at ISO 80, Noise Reduction effects start to creep in and smear detail from about ISO 200
- ISO 800 and 1600, though improved from the G9, are still so noisy (and soft) they're almost pointless, ISO 3200 very low resolution and complete waste of time

and it goes on....

But the problems arise when the user gets back to a computer and downloads the images from the G10. In trying to keep ahead of the megapixel race, Canon has produced a camera that in the real world can't deliver on the promise of the styling and control layout. In the studio it produced some incredible results at base ISO, but out in the real world and as ISO settings increased, the loss of fine detail and increase in noise really let it down. A camera is ultimately about taking pictures, and that is why we put so much emphasis on the image quality output.

Compared the the G9, there is actually improvement in the G10, showing that Canon is not sitting idly by or just making a cosmetic upgrade. But the market has moved on since the G9 was introduced, and the Panasonic LX3 shows what is possible with a more conservative approach to resolution in a small sensor, in a lighter more compact package and at a lower price.


All things being equal, more megapixels mean smaller pixels, and smaller pixels cannot individually gather as much light as larger pixels. Thus the signal-to-noise ratio is quite poor. 15MP on a full frame DSLR, or even a crop body like the 50D, is not really a problem because the MUCH larger sensor means that the individual pixels are much larger and gather plenty of light, relatively speaking. So compact cameras still suck for low light photography. Sure there have been technical developments since the 300D that offset some of the "problems" but I doubt the 300D would lose a high ISO battle against any compact camera on the market today.

You then also have issue with diffraction softening on high density sensors, the pathetic inability to limit DOF on small sensors, generally poor handling, lack of manual control, slow AF and burst shooting etc. etc..

On top of all that, assuming a compact is generally bought for casual use rather than professional work, who even needs 12MP or 15MP? A full HD TV (1920x1080) only requires ~2MP to fill the screen. A 12MP compact will give you pixel dimensions of 4000x3000, so you will have to resize your pictures down to just over 1/3 size (1080/3000 = 0.36X) to fit onto a large HD TV or even high resolution PC monitors. If you print, you could get a 20"x15" image at reasonable quality (for viewing from a distance), but how many people print that large?

For most people, what you get with a 12MP-15MP compact is a marketing victory over common sense. Maybe a top quality compact camera like the G10 can scrape some benefit, but only at the lowest ISO settings. As soon as the light is anything but excellent, or the action a little too quick, any compact will just collapse. In my opinion we would all be better served by limiting compact cameras to 8MP at the most. The Fuji F30 and F31 were hailed as the best low light cameras to date and they had around 6MP each. Ever since then it seems we have been going downhill with sensor designs, just to satisfy the stupidity of marketing.
 
You can look at it another way....

Joe Public goes into Jessops to replace his trusty 1.5M pixels camera and sees the nice new shiney 15M pixel camera.

He doesn't know about noise & sensor size / density, what he does know is that they are "newer, more advanced pixels" and that he can "zoom" in x15* times before he is left with the same number of pixels to print as his old camera.

That would sell it to me





* I know it's x4 zoom really :)
 
Just Google for "megapixel madness" and you will see there are many who are as frustrated by this nonsense as I am.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sour...-8&rlz=1T4GGLJ_en___GB302&q=megapixel+madness

If you look at the Buyers Guide, Feature Search on DPReview you will see that they have now added a field for pixel density. You will note that the 21MP Canon 5D Mk II has a pixel density of 2.4MP per square cm but the recently announced 9.2MP Kodak C913 has a pixel density of 37MP per square cm. So in simple terms each pixel from the Kodak is just 1/15th the size of a pixel from the Canon. That means each pixel can record only 1/15th the light of each pixel on the Canon for any combination of aperture and shutter speed. The only way to make an equivalent exposure on a like for like basis is to massively boost/amplify the signal from the Kodak sensor. When you amplify the signal you also amplify the noise. By simple mathematics you might think the noise in a 100 ISO image from the Kodak would look similar to the noise from a 1600 ISO shot from the Canon. In practice it would probably be quite a bit worse because the gaps between pixels don't automatically shrink just because the pixels shrink, so the effective area of each pixel is probably less than 1/15th that of the Canon.

The hair example on this page - http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong10/page8.asp - is a perfect demonstration of the futility of high resolution sensors on compact cameras, when the light is anything less than dazzling and you need to bump the ISO.

These guys are on the case....

http://www.6mpixel.org/en/
 
Not quite, but not far off. You still need to choose a camera that meets your needs all round. You may have to make a sacrifice somewhere, in your choice, but make sure it is the right sacrifice. The important thing to appreciate is that more megapixels do not automatically imply superior image quality, or even inferior image quality. Perhaps when matched with a very good lens, and used at low ISO, extra megapixels really can provide a benefit in fine detail, especially if your zoom is too limited and you need to crop. The real problem with lots of megapixels is that, generally speaking, the performance plummets when the light gets low and you need to bump the ISO. But different manufacturers have more or less success in sensor design and image processing to squeeze the best performance from that sensor. i.e. don't assume that all 12MP cameras, as an example, have the same IQ.

Taking the Canon G10 and Panasonic LX3 as examples at the front of the pack, according to the detailed reviews at DPReview, the Canon will outresolve the LX3 at low ISOs and will yield the superior image. But as the ISO increases the noise from the tiny pixels on the Canon require software noise reduction, which while hiding visible noise (to a degree) also hides fine detail, rendering those extra megapixels pretty much useless at higher ISO. Of course, the Panasonic is not immune from noise and the need to disguise it either, but the effects are less obnoxious at higher ISO levels.

Also with these cameras there is a significant difference in the zoom range : 28mm-140mm for the Canon vs 24mm-60mm for the Panasonic. If most of your shooting is geared towards indoor stuff you may very well favour the Panasonic, or its fast (f/2.0) lens, wider wide angle for squeezing people into a group shot, and better noise performance at higher ISOs. If you shoot mostly outdoors and want to try to capture some wildlife or sports action (don't laugh) then the longer zoom of the Canon may suit you better. 28mm is by no means a bad starting point for a compact. If you want to shoot portraits, especially headshots, or relative close-ups, you may find the 60mm maximum from the Panasonic to be less flattering than, say 100mm from the Canon.

There is also handling to consider - which feels right in the hand for you? Which control system do you prefer? I haven't held either camera but I would guess the Canon would win for me with its very direct physical controls, avoiding the need to hunt through menus to get to what I seek when adjusting aperture/shutter speed/ISO.

Other factors are things like battery life, accessories (e.g. underwater housing), and whatever else is important to you - maybe macro performance or presence/absence of an optical viewfinder.

You have to choose what is right for you. Megapixels is part of that choice but it is not the be all and end all. The megapixels themselves is not the problem anyway. The "problem" is in whether and how those extra megapixels harm your ultimate IQ. Weigh all the pros and cons for your needs.

If you have a DSLR then maybe you accept that when the light gets low you will have to lug the lump around, so on that basis you could choose a compact camera with the lens and features you want most of all rather than concerning yourself about ultimate IQ between 800-1600 ISO, leaving that territory strictly for the big gun.

One last point on noise : the digital age has given people the ability to pixel peep everything to death at 100% magnification and to moan like it matters about per-pixel sharpness or per-pixel noise. People need to get over that obsession. Cameras are for taking photographs of subjects and scenes, not capturing perfect pixels. What may look a bit nasty at 100% on screen may well look beautiful at more converntional viewing sizes when printed or resized for online viewing. There is also very good third party noise reduction software, like Noise Ninja, Neat Image, Noiseware and, I'm sure, others. These can do a remarkably good job of disguising noise before the final print.

Here's a pretty crazy example, shot at 12,800 ISO with my Canon 50D.

Full image resized to 800x533, no noise reduction at all :

Canon%20EOS%2050D_3267%20x%202178_ISO%2012800_LR.jpg



Full image resized to 800x533 and processed through Neat Image at default settings (probably a bit too strong). The noise has pretty much gone but so has the fine detail in the fur. But let's not forget that this started out as a 12,800 ISO image. Fur is a pretty evil subject for NR to work on, whether in camera or out. The detail is just so fine to begin with that the software has no choice but to bury it somewhat. A subject like a street scene, a person, or a car would have suffered far less. In fact the smoothing effect of NR can even be a positive feature when it comes to easing off the wrinkles on skin :) The NR would have been far less aggressive on an 800 ISO or 1600 ISO example :

Canon%20EOS%2050D_3267%20x%202178_ISO%2012800_LR_filtered.jpg



100% crop without noise reduction (This image file contains the EXIF data, showing the 12,800 ISO setting. The other images have the EXIF missing because it has either been stripped by the hosting site or by Neat Image) :

Canon%20EOS%2050D_3267%20x%202178_ISO%2012800_LR-2.jpg



100% crop after passing through Neat Image. I did back off the strength of the NR a little :

Canon%20EOS%2050D_3267%20x%202178_ISO%2012800_LR-2_filtered.jpg



Take a look at the sample shots on DPReview. There aren't many high ISO examples but from the few I've seen I did not spot an obvious winner at 1600 ISO.

LX3 : http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmclx3/page18.asp
G10 : http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong10/page25.asp

If you spend most of your time in the 100-200 ISO or even 100-400 ISO range I don't think most people would have a problem with either of these cameras.
 
I understand what people are saying about the noise problems on the G10 at higher sensitivities. But ask yourself, will you really need to use ISO 400 and above?

I'd expect to be using one, if I had one, normally at ISO 100. The depth of field is enormous because the sensor is so small, which would help keep your shutter speed in the handheld range at ISO 100. Plus, it has IS built-in, so I guess you could probably hand hold it safely at, what, 1/10 second?

So how often are you going to need to push the sensitivity beyond say ISO 200 - unless you're using one indoors, for example?

What stops me from splashing out on one immediately is the difficulty of using screw-in filters (eg a polariser) on it. I'm not sure the Canon adaptor will do the job; I see a company in the states called Lensmate is planning to produce an adaptor but its not available yet.

Can anyone persuade me that I should keep hold of the cash when the adaptor becomes available?
 
Thanks for a very informative post tdodd :)

My main use for the camera would be something to take everywhere with me, landscapes, probably used more in lower light, and off the cuff photography situations.

Given that, while id possibly prefer the controls of the g10 more, its size bothers me, and is cumbersome, while the LX3 is no small camera, its almost half as thick, which is a bonus in pocket, the zoom range im not to concerned about as i mostly work in the 17-50 range on my DSLR, so I think iv pretty much decided, the LX3, but I shall be poping to my local camera store when they get them in stock to try both.
 
Don't forget that the dimensions usually quoted for the LX3 conveniently ignore the sticky out lens. I've tried to find out its true dimensions but so far I've failed. I'm sure either camera will be great to use :)
 
As a compact I have a 3 yr old Sony W5 with 5mp.

Metal bodied, Zeiss lens, great images, built like a tank, decent screen, some customisation allowed.

You could pick one up on fleabay for about £40 now I'd guess, I paid over £200!

I really dont get the high MP attraction on compacts at all.
 
My current compact is a 7.2MP Sony DSC-P200, bought in summer 2005. I hate it. Noise shows through at 200 ISO and at 400 (its maximum) it is too horrible to bear. It has no IS and it is extremely difficult to get sharp images with even slightly long shutter speeds. When using flash it defaults typically to a shutter speed of 1/40 - bloody useless. Everything in the background is a blurry mess. It has manual mode, but what use is manual if you only have a choice of two apertures and they change any time you adjust the zoom? In its day it was the top of the Sony compact camera range. It is garbage in anything but excellent light. I've been looking to replace it for a very long time and the market just does not offer what I want. The LX3 and the G10 are the closest yet but I'm not sure they're close enough - TOO MANY MEGAPIXELS and lack of a constant aperture zoom.

Right now I'd prefer to lug my DSLR(s) around or accept that I'll not be taking pictures at all, rather than take that nasty little Sony anywhere. It is so slow and operationally cumbersome. Point and shoot is about all it's good for. If you want to do some photography then forget it.

By the way, why do P&S manufacturers think people would rather zoom by jabbing at buttons and watching the zoom alter in bloody great leaps, rather than have a simple manual twist zoom with fine control? Ditto focus for that matter.

And another thing - why do so many compacts have the flash diagonally beside the lens? Is this just so you can guarantee hideous side shadows on the background whenever you photograph people, no matter which way round you orient the camera? I've seen some camcorders that stick the flash below the lens - Genius! (not). What's wrong with sticking it directly above the lens and having the shadows disappear behind the subject?

p.s. I can't stand 4:3 format either.
 
Hmm, well I've actually got a G10 and looked at the LX3 when making my decision.
I chose the G10 partly because I have Canon gear already, I use DPP and I liked the controls, zoom range and optical viewfinder.

The LX3 does look to be a good camera, but the dimensions quoted don't tell the full story because the lens protrudes. I think the LX3 would actually be more awkward to carry because it's not got the sleek (ish) lines of the G10 when not in use.

As for low light photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dvf-woz/2974674805/sizes/l/

In the real world, I've found that pictures at 800 are perfectly acceptible and the grain is quite film like in any case. The IS is very good, so the shutter speeds can be slower than you'd expect. There's a whole bunch of pictures on my flickr, some full resolution and many from different environments.

One thing I will say is that the camera is REALLY aimed at the enthusiast - it's flippin' complex and the number of options on it is pretty intimidating at first.
 
No, I'm not saying that. The post on DPReview is not mine. I just thought the point of view was interesting, not so much whether the G10 is better or worse than the LX3 but more that sometimes we lose sight of the purpose of some tools. If you want DSLR performance buy a DSLR. If you want something to pop in your pocket get a compact, but don't expect it to deliver equivalent results.

The LX3 and G10 are almost certainly top of the compact camera class, but neither one is the outright winner as they both have a number of compromises. The only person who can decide which compromises are most acceptable to him/her is the person choosing the camera. If I was forced to make a choice right this second I'd go for the G10, but that's just me (an existing Canon user with Canon 580EX flash guns). I am trying to give a balanced view that favours neither camera in particular. Only you can decide which one meets your needs best.
 
Hi Woz, did you physically hold the cameras when you were making a decision ? if so is the size of them really that different ? Am curios now,lol

Yeah I did - the LX3 feels dinky, but that stick out lens would be a pain in a pocket. The G10 is a brick! You could stun a cow with it, but when it's off the lens fully retracts and it fits happily in a coat pocket.

Neither are 'shirt pocket' cameras.

Don't consider spending that sort of money without handling them yourself though!
 
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