The problem with education

I generally set my ISO prior to shooting and only adjust it as the need arises.

Tbh I do… 'Auto ISO'… no word of a lie, works well for me :)

If I'm using flash though I go SS, Aperture, ISO in that order… It doesn't matter if I'm shooting at 5000 ISO but it does matter if I'm shooting at a slow ss
 
Tbh I do… 'Auto ISO'… no word of a lie, works well for me :)

If I'm using flash though I go SS, Aperture, ISO in that order… It doesn't matter if I'm shooting at 5000 ISO but it does matter if I'm shooting at a slow ss
Completely OT, Nikon?
 
Most photography degrees are art degrees. Very few are business related or technical based.
It seems it is easier to find good technical, industrial and business based photographic degrees in the USA. To them commerce and industry is not a dirty word.

This - it's art using photography as a medium.
 
The torch you mention was just a press flash gun and held the batteries, and could link to an external synchroniser is the shutter did not have one. Most had a press button to check the bulb was ok. But I did not often use one,as I was more into using flash on an industrial scale. They could be fired manually but I never used them that way.

I think we're talking slightly different things here. The flashbulbs I'm on about were about the size of a 60w bulb but with the same cap as a torch bulb of the times. They were filled with crumpled sheet magnesium, and I used 'em in an ex-army torch, firing via the momentary push switch on the torch whilst holding the shutter release down on "B".

I've no idea how old they were, nor for that matter what the guide number might have been, but I seem to recall that I found about a dozen of them and somehow managed to take one or two halfway-decent snaps of Gran on out of date Selochrome in Mother's No2 Brownie ...
 
What does completely OT mean?

I shoot Canon
OT = Off Topic

Canon's (IIRC except the 1dx) do weird stuff in Auto ISO. When you shoot Manual you can't override the meter. I'm not generally a Manual shooter - except when I use flash, but the lack of control when I switched to M would freak me out.
 
OT = Off Topic

Canon's (IIRC except the 1dx) do weird stuff in Auto ISO. When you shoot Manual you can't override the meter. I'm not generally a Manual shooter - except when I use flash, but the lack of control when I switched to M would freak me out.

Haha yeah probably a bit OT, was more a little joke as I'm teaching the exposure triangle and then whacking my camera on auto ISO :D

Yeah I've seen you say this before, tbh if I'm using auto ISO I shoot AV so I've not come across it. The fact it defaults to ISO 400 as soon as you turn on a flash though is a real pain in the backside.
 
I think we're talking slightly different things here. The flashbulbs I'm on about were about the size of a 60w bulb but with the same cap as a torch bulb of the times. They were filled with crumpled sheet magnesium, and I used 'em in an ex-army torch, firing via the momentary push switch on the torch whilst holding the shutter release down on "B".

I've no idea how old they were, nor for that matter what the guide number might have been, but I seem to recall that I found about a dozen of them and somehow managed to take one or two halfway-decent snaps of Gran on out of date Selochrome in Mother's No2 Brownie ...

You are talking about the same thing but made by
GEC in the usa their bulbs were called sashalite they had the same edison screw as the philips version I was using.
not that many ever arrived this side of the water. Several sizes of both were available the lagest about the size of a 100w lamp and the smaller about a 40w size. Even smaller long burn ones were made to sync with focal plane shutters.
leica made an early flash gun to use them.
They are what you see american press men using in old films in to the1950s
They were made in at least three fittings, bayonet, edison screw, and small edison screw. There may have been other sizes but I never saw them. Amateurs tended to use what was called speed midgets, which later became fairly universal and at first had bayonet caps, but later were capless and used either a special gun or an adapter. But about the 60s flash cubes were inventd which were the same bulbs, but 4 were mounted in a plastic cube.

I still have some of these bulbs and cubes in my collection as well as a couple of guns.
one remarkable thing is that the dangerous flash powder was still available in 1950.
 
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I agree 100% with the inspiring things tbh… with photography sadly most who teach do so because they weren't good enough to make a career out of it. It's hard to be inspired by those people I'd imagine. I'm lucky as I get a real amount of respect from the students and they ask me a lot of questions about the business side of things, to look at their personal work and give them critique etc. I definitely do my best to inspire them and not just follow the a-z way of teaching the 'set menu' that they are required to work from, but if people aren't working in the industry, and don't even own a camera, how can they expect to inspire a generation? It's just not going to happen.. however they do still need structure and shown the right path etc… build up their skills and knowledge which is why they need to be taught. Giving a 17 year old the freedom to learn how they want will have spectacular results in a not so good way… again if you had a class of 10 all interested in the subject I'd argue against my point there, that IMO would work and work well… a class of 30 with a passing interest though? Not going to work

I honestly do not know where to start here. In this thread you have had a pop at teachers, kids and even the education system. I am sorry, but maybe you ought to also look closer to home.

I will agree about large class sizes making things hard. i am teaching GCSE graphics to 28 kids and have no place in the school big enough to have this class be able to do any practical work. It also makes 1-1 feedback hard to impossible depending on the lesson.

People who teach because they can't make it. Wow, I am sure your colleagues would love to hear you think so highly of them. Also if you rely on this to form part of your income, you are not exactly making a full time career from photography either.

You are trying to inspire them, but straying too far from the curriculum is of no good to them. Sure do it as after school activities, lunchtime clubs etc. but you only have limited time to teach them what they know to pass an exam and in the grand scheme, that is the important thing, both to them and you. "I didn't pass my course but I know the exposure triangle proper well" is hardly going to serve them well at a uni interview. Yes the course is not perfect, you may disagree with the content, but that is what you are there for and that is what you must deliver.

Lastly giving students freedom to learn will result in disaster. That really is unbelievable. People learn in different ways and at different speed. Differentiation is the key to good teaching and learning. Allowing pupils to learn in a variety of ways and set their own targets, even in large groups, can be daunting, but is the way to seeing amazing work happen (and occasionally a disaster), but you need to keep trying. I can imagine being faced with lessons on the exposure triangle fills some with dread, now if it was part of the course, fair enough, but if they only have a passing interest, this will be boring and pointless, you will end up turning those with a casual interest off rather than inspiring them.

You would be crucified by Ofsted for this, although luckily individuals no longer get rated, just the overall.

Showing them structure and the right path etc. is part of getting the best out of them, but allowing a 17 year old (or any age) learn in their own way will have spectacular results in the right way if you go about it the right way.
 
That pretty much sums up everything I've been wanting to say about this thread.

Thanks Carl.
 
Just to add.

I do have some sympathy with the OP, but only to this extent:

I am a qualified teacher but finally decided that my view of what education should be is not compatible with the current system.

I have huge admiration for those who are able to achieve great results within the system as it is, but I recognise I am not skilful enough to do that.

Therefore, when voluntary redundancy was offered, I took it.

We each have to live by our own conscience and make decisions accordingly.
 
I honestly do not know where to start here. In this thread you have had a pop at teachers, kids and even the education system. I am sorry, but maybe you ought to also look closer to home.

I will agree about large class sizes making things hard. i am teaching GCSE graphics to 28 kids and have no place in the school big enough to have this class be able to do any practical work. It also makes 1-1 feedback hard to impossible depending on the lesson.

People who teach because they can't make it. Wow, I am sure your colleagues would love to hear you think so highly of them. Also if you rely on this to form part of your income, you are not exactly making a full time career from photography either.

You are trying to inspire them, but straying too far from the curriculum is of no good to them. Sure do it as after school activities, lunchtime clubs etc. but you only have limited time to teach them what they know to pass an exam and in the grand scheme, that is the important thing, both to them and you. "I didn't pass my course but I know the exposure triangle proper well" is hardly going to serve them well at a uni interview. Yes the course is not perfect, you may disagree with the content, but that is what you are there for and that is what you must deliver.

Lastly giving students freedom to learn will result in disaster. That really is unbelievable. People learn in different ways and at different speed. Differentiation is the key to good teaching and learning. Allowing pupils to learn in a variety of ways and set their own targets, even in large groups, can be daunting, but is the way to seeing amazing work happen (and occasionally a disaster), but you need to keep trying. I can imagine being faced with lessons on the exposure triangle fills some with dread, now if it was part of the course, fair enough, but if they only have a passing interest, this will be boring and pointless, you will end up turning those with a casual interest off rather than inspiring them.

You would be crucified by Ofsted for this, although luckily individuals no longer get rated, just the overall.

Showing them structure and the right path etc. is part of getting the best out of them, but allowing a 17 year old (or any age) learn in their own way will have spectacular results in the right way if you go about it the right way.


The fact is the people who teach photography at my place didn't make it as photographers, that's why they are teachers... there's no getting away from that fact.

I don't do classes on the exposure triangle, I touched on it with a diagram and then moved on to using flash and exposure

I teach what is on the curriculum, but I also try and a) do it in a way that actually teaches them some skills & b) drop the odd thing in that will benefit them providing it doesn't take away from the ticking boxes exercise of doing projects

Students have the freedom to learn, some do in their own time, I encourage personal projects, I sit in my own time and go through their personal work and feedback on their images, technical things and help them as much as I can with their own learning. About 4 out of every 30 will do their own work, the rest will do their project to the minimum required and not pick up a camera outside of it. Students can have all the freedom to learn they want, but with the project which run for 4 weeks and they have to produce x image then they get their hands held through it. I hate that but it's what you HAVE to do to get them through the course. The actual projects don't allow much freedom to do much on their own as they are too short and nothing would be handed in that would pass.

I understand differentiation, I push the better students to achieve more, I give the shy quiet ones more support when needed and I set tasks per student either in class or tutorials. You can't judge my teaching ability on a rant about teachers not knowing enough about the subject and the stupid restrictions of the course content / taking too many students not suitable for a course.

I make enough from photography to live without teaching, I'm very new to the business and I have established myself in a very short period of time... I teach for a bit of extra cash and because I wanted to do it, my background is teaching before photography. I intend to quit the college in the summer or just after as it's not working for me, I don't enjoy it enough and find the system very restrictive and not conducive to teaching the skills required to succeed. I want to finish the year with the kids and so I will stay till the summer because there are one or two I actually think have serious potential, and I want to help them achieve that.
 
I think it is a digital age thing, because film speed wasn't really a 'variable' the way it is today.

We chose the film to suit the task, then just juggled shutter speed/ aperture.

So whilst the 3 variables existed, they didn't hold equal status.

I still shoot like that, and I'm guessing most 'film' photographers do too. I generally set my ISO prior to shooting and only adjust it as the need arises.


I learnt in the digital age and I never have my camera on auto ISO. I tried it once and it made decisions that I didn't like! I guess I wanted an extra layer of control. I do understand when it can be useful though. Just not so much to me!!

I started as a novice. The triangle thing helped me a lot but I think of it now in terms of how the camera captures the image. I guess what I mean is that I UNDERSTAND it rather than relying in a rule.

As with all teaching, if they're interested and keen, they'll pick it up and enjoy it!

S
 
I teach photography 2 days a week at college, teaching 16-18 year olds mainly. Today I was putting together a Powerpoint and within it contained a diagram of the exposure triangle… the course leader walked past and no word of a lie said 'what's that?'! I said it was the exposure triangle and she said teaching it was 'old fashioned' and was quite derogatory about me teaching it.

Another lecturer chipped in saying they don't get taught it.

I'm starting to understand why people leave education without much clue when it comes to photography… the people who run these courses have no idea about photography or the technical side of things half the time. I've been banging on about who they need to learn more technical stuff ever since I started a year ago but it just falls on deaf ears.

I also said we needed to teach them lightroom but no one in the team knows how to use it and the days I'm in I don't have access to computer rooms. They seem to think everyone still uses PS which isn't the case… to see 30 students all say they don't use lightroom and have no idea how to use it just seems ridiculous in this day and age.

Sorry for the rant, I feel like i need to vent some of my frustrations! So tempted to just walk away from this teaching job as although I love working with the kids the system is just not conducive to learning. I'm the only one in the team who really works in the industry and knows what's what, yet i never really get listened to by those died in the wool teachers who are completely out of touch with the modern world of photography. No word of a lie, 2 out of the team of 10 don't even own a camera!!!


This explains why the undergraduate students we get are so crap these days. It's been apparent to me that FE photgraphy courses aren't working lately. This, and the fact that about 10 hours a week are spent teaching functional skills, maths and english instead of photography.

Further Education is broken in the UK.. just as Schools are. This is now effecting higher education as the suits try to bring in such measures into HE... at this rate degree students will also have to have maths and english as part of their studies. Where will it end? MA students doing maths and english? PhD students doing maths and engish?


They are not out of touch with the modern world of photography though.. as the exposure triangle is not modern... it's the bedrock of everything. The problem is, they want nice, entraining courses for the chimps so they don't leave.

The result is that they get to me (and people like me) in HE, and they simply can not cope.

I'd be VERY interested to learn what course you teach though, as both UAL and BTEC are VERY strict about what course content there should be, and I know for a fact you can't simply "choose" to teach anything, as it's a set curriculum. Are you teaching A level or below?

What college is this we're talking about here? Sounds like a place to avoid.
 
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I was with you until you got to this bit.. seems equally ridiculous to me that you would think EVERYONE! should be using lightroom... seems a bit blinkered .

Actually... we don't "teach" any software. We aren't a training course. We introduce Lightroom, explain how to set up a catalogue etc... then that's it. If undergraduates can't work it out, or make their own choices then they've no right being on a degree programme. We spend more time pushing Capture One Pro though, as that's far more industry relevant for most of our students. Lightroom is utter sh!t shooting tethered. You'll find COP in more professional studios than Lightroom.




I find the exposure triangle rather dire for visualizing exposure settings. Or for explaining the whys and wherefores. It was never used in the "Old Days" as ISO or Film speed was not dynamic.
I prefer the Tap and bucket analogy. As only the Shutter speed and Aperture control the received light. The ISO/film speed only determines the sensitivity and can be thought of as a variable sized container. or a scale on the side of the bucket.

The object of exposure is to fill the bucket to the required depth .... by altering the flow or the time.... to the required depth.

The triangle does not supply the necessary visualisation qualities to do this.


Yep.. I find the bucket analogy works best when VERBALLY explaining, but I also give all students a link to this.

http://camerasim.com/apps/camera-simulator/

If, armed with those two things... and a camera... they still don't get it.... then I'm sorry... they're on the wrong course.



I personally think it's better to learn the technical basics before starting to learn the more creative side but that's just my opinion ;)
I know that the lad that came to me had no idea at all how to use the camera or what lenses he should use etc but was being told to go out and shoot assignment photos !

Both should develop side by side.

Most photography degrees are art degrees. Very few are business related or technical based.

Wrong. I think you're just making assumptions here Terry. Have you been to many universities and colleges to see what they actually do, or are you just regurgitating the usual myths that get carted out during these debates? :) We do not give lectures on how to start a wedding business no... as you don't need a degree to be a wedding photographer, but we are very big on marketing and entrepreneurship - how to get your work seen... exhibiting, publishing etc. Degree students, you have to understand, are usually a little more aspirational, and aren't aiming to be wedding photographers, or social photographers. When they come for interview, if they say they want to shoot weddings, we decline them, and advise them that what they need is photograph training, not education. There's a difference. A degree is not training. Those who don't understand the difference shouldn't really be commenting on such things.


It seems it is easier to find good technical, industrial and business based photographic degrees in the USA. To them commerce and industry is not a dirty word.


It's not here either, and there are loads of BSc Photography programmes here in the UK Terry. It depends what you call commerce and industry.


Yeah I'm a digital age person, only got in to photography 4 years ago :)

Hang on a minute.... you said you were trained as a teacher in 2006.. yet only got into photography 4 years ago.... and you're criticising other teachers as not being photographers? Well.. with all due respect... neither are you!! I also think it's unfair that this myth of photography teachers not being photographers is constantly perpetuated. On my team our total combined photographic experience equals over 100 years!!

I wish everyone would stop looking at stupid A level courses and then making assumptions about the WHOLE of photographic education as a result.

my time as a photographer isn't all that relevant as I know more than I need to and have a huge passion for the subject.

Oh if only that were true..... LOL. You'll get away with that up to a certain level, but don't try to teach on undergraduate or graduate programmes or you'll get eaten alive.


I agree with a great deal of what Andy is saying about education though. I too am questioning how long I can remain in an environment where teaching is secondary to money. Its the NHS all over again.

I do wish people would stop making assumptions about those who teach though. I made far more money in London and Manchester as a photographer than I do as a lecturer... so why do you think I do it? I think I've demonstrated more than enough that I can walk the walk as well as talk the talk, so instead of criticising, why not ponder the possible reasons people like to teach this subject?

And.... stop judging all photographic education by A level standards. A level photography is sh1t - it's not taught by photographers, it's taught by the art teacher with the least contact hours on their time table... simple as that.
 
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You are talking about the same thing but made by
GEC in the usa their bulbs were called sashalite they had the same edison screw as the philips version I was using.
not that many ever arrived this side of the water. Several sizes of both were available the lagest about the size of a 100w lamp and the smaller about a 40w size. Even smaller long burn ones were made to sync with focal plane shutters.
leica made an early flash gun to use them.
They are what you see american press men using in old films in to the1950s
They were made in at least three fittings, bayonet, edison screw, and small edison screw. There may have been other sizes but I never saw them. Amateurs tended to use what was called speed midgets, which later became fairly universal and at first had bayonet caps, but later were capless and used either a special gun or an adapter. But about the 60s flash cubes were inventd which were the same bulbs, but 4 were mounted in a plastic cube.

I still have some of these bulbs and cubes in my collection as well as a couple of guns.
one remarkable thing is that the dangerous flash powder was still available in 1950.

Thanks for clearing that up. Funny how you never forget the smell of hot flashbulbs. Or the pain of going to unscrew a Photoflood bulb which you've forgotten you only just switched off ...
 
Teachers/mentors aren't photographers? Luckily the course I'm following has professionals still working in their field of expertise they are teaching/mentoring.
 
This explains why the undergraduate students we get are so crap these days. It's been apparent to me that FE photgraphy courses aren't working lately. This, and the fact that about 10 hours a week are spent teaching functional skills, maths and english instead of photography.

Further Education is broken in the UK.. just as Schools are. This is now effecting higher education as the suits try to bring in such measures into HE... at this rate degree students will also have to have maths and english as part of their studies. Where will it end? MA students doing maths and english? PhD students doing maths and engish?


They are not out of touch with the modern world of photography though.. as the exposure triangle is not modern... it's the bedrock of everything. The problem is, they want nice, entraining courses for the chimps so they don't leave.

The result is that they get to me (and people like me) in HE, and they simply can not cope.

I'd be VERY interested to learn what course you teach though, as both UAL and BTEC are VERY strict about what course content there should be, and I know for a fact you can't simply "choose" to teach anything, as it's a set curriculum. Are you teaching A level or below?

What college is this we're talking about here? Sounds like a place to avoid.

Yeah it's BTEC we teach so the content is very much set, but there's still ways to do it that would be better and still within the curriculum. It's just about being inventive and not doing the minimum required IMO.

I'd rather not mention the college tbh.

My experience of teaching prior to last year was teaching IT which is my background, so i was occupationally competent in that area and only once I became the same in photography did I make the switch.

Capture one is something we teach our foundation degree students and I'd agree for shooting tethered there's nothing better, I'd just use LR for raw file editing really, and a degree of file management.

It's nice to hear from someone teaching the next step and seeing the issues FE is causing, even if people don't agree with the things I've said the problem is a real one.
 
It's nice to hear from someone teaching the next step and seeing the issues FE is causing,

It's killing HE photography, that's what it's doing. We get BTEC Photo students with DDD grades, and they can't use a camera.

FE is broken.
 
Actually... we don't "teach" any software. We aren't a training course. We introduce Lightroom, explain how to set up a catalogue etc... then that's it. If undergraduates can't work it out, or make their own choices then they've no right being on a degree programme. We spend more time pushing Capture One Pro though, as that's far more industry relevant for most of our students. Lightroom is utter sh!t shooting tethered. You'll find COP in more professional studios than Lightroom.

Do you not have workshops where students can be guided on software issues by technicians.
I am retired 15 years now, and things have probably changed, but I know one of our technicians moved on to Huddersfield uni in that role.

Yep.. I find the bucket analogy works best when VERBALLY explaining, but I also give all students a link to this.
http://camerasim.com/apps/camera-simulator/

If, armed with those two things... and a camera... they still don't get it.... then I'm sorry... they're on the wrong course.

That is a lovely little GUI
What I do not understand, is how any one can get on to a photographic degree course and not know such things.
It was some thing that brought me to tears on my birthday as a ten year old with my first adjustable camera. By the next day I had fallen in, and was processing my first film.








Wrong. I think you're just making assumptions here Terry. Have you been to many universities and colleges to see what they actually do, or are you just regurgitating the usual myths that get carted out during these debates? :) We do not give lectures on how to start a wedding business no... as you don't need a degree to be a wedding photographer, but we are very big on marketing and entrepreneurship - how to get your work seen... exhibiting, publishing etc. Degree students, you have to understand, are usually a little more aspirational, and aren't aiming to be wedding photographers, or social photographers. When they come for interview, if they say they want to shoot weddings, we decline them, and advise them that what they need is photograph training, not education. There's a difference. A degree is not training. Those who don't understand the difference shouldn't really be commenting on such things.

It's not here either, and there are loads of BSc Photography programmes here in the UK Terry. It depends what you call commerce and industry.

I have visited far more universities than colleges and while most courses are run in the "Schools of Art" in one form or another a few do run Bsc courses but it is hardly the norm.
The American Bsc courses seem to have a far greater emphasis on business and commerce and preparing students for industry and most make a point of saying so in their prospectus.

I am well aware of the difference between education and training, but there is now a big However... Now that students are faced with a massive bill at the end of their degree they are faced with the reality of having to monetize what they have learnt.
Unfortunately there is a big gap between what they can offer, and their own and prospective employers expectations.
The distinction between education and training, at least as far as expectations are concerned are necessarily becoming blurred.
That Distinction is becoming closer to that required of a Doctor, engineer or architect, where work skills are not only expected but demanded.


Most of my working life was spent in industry, but I did spend a short time running a successful but parallel wedding business. And I have no illusions about Photography as a career. Only my last ten years was spent as a college manager.

We all enter and work as photographers because we have no other choice It is something in our DNA, It is certainly not because it is easy or highly lucrative. A majority of new young Photographers are forced out of the profession in their early years, because the rewards do not match their financial needs. I was one of the more fortunate ones.

I agree with a great deal of what Andy is saying about education though. I too am questioning how long I can remain in an environment where teaching is secondary to money. Its the NHS all over again.

For many years Education has been a business. This was felt first by the FE colleges who by their nature have no supporting research funding. They have to rely entirely on their funding councils current structure.

Virtually every management meeting relates to subjects like, retention, supported teaching hours, budgets, accommodation strategy and the like . Bums on seats and completion rates make the difference between meeting your budget or failure.
It is not surprising that final results show little relationship to student ability, especially at the bottom end.

I was inevitable that HE had to enter this world, they are reaping the rewards of the FE failure in their own intakes. they now face the reality of having to follow the same road. This has already proved exceedingly difficult for HE departments established in FE colleges.

Education has always been secondary to money... however in more affluent times it was not a problem.
 
Well, one thing's for sure. After reading this thread, I'm even more glad that (a) I had a decent education to the age of 16 and (b) I was never taught photography.

Incidentally, has anyone ever heard of anybody with a degree in photography actually going on to earn their living with a camera?
 
To the OP, I'm currently teaching an adult ed class in digital photography and one of the key things in my view is the exposure triangle. I can't believe anyone who knows anything about photography would not enlighten students. I know they say those that can do and those that can't teach, but you can, it seems, be a teacher of a topic without any real underpinning knowledge.
I'm not a Lightroom user, so wouldn't recommend that to my students. I would recommend Photoshop Elements to beginners. Photoshop is way to expensive for most pockets.
 
Well, one thing's for sure. After reading this thread, I'm even more glad that (a) I had a decent education to the age of 16 and (b) I was never taught photography.

Incidentally, has anyone ever heard of anybody with a degree in photography actually going on to earn their living with a camera?

Yes... I have degrees in photography, and I have spent many, many years earning a living from it. Stop talking crap.
 
Do you not have workshops where students can be guided on software issues by technicians.
I am retired 15 years now, and things have probably changed, but I know one of our technicians moved on to Huddersfield uni in that role.

Nope. We don't want to limit anyone to one piece of software. If an undergraduate can't be arsed going onto You Tube and learning how to use Lightroom.... which is really, really easy to use, then it's a pretty poor show. They're all pretty much the same: ACR, Lightroom, Capture One... if you can use one, you can use any of them with equal facility. We spend time, instead, teaching them how to get QUALITY from the files REGARDLESS of which software they use, as ultimately, that's what matters. Same deal for all of them anyway... applying lens profiles, removing CA.. good sharpening and NR techniques, colour profiling etc. These are universal things regardless of software, and we tend to just use Adobe Camera Raw for that, as it's something pretty much all students have access too.



What I do not understand, is how any one can get on to a photographic degree course and not know such things.
It was some thing that brought me to tears on my birthday as a ten year old with my first adjustable camera. By the next day I had fallen in, and was processing my first film.

Kids today don't have hobbies - they aren't used to learning, and when they meet Higher Education head on, they can't cope. They've been carried and spoon fed through school and FE. Also, you can't actually fail a BTEC course very easily.. you can just keep re-submitting work over and over again until it reaches a grade. By that time, you've learned how to pass that module by rote, not how to be a photographer. FE photography is broken. Those that are good from FE courses would be good any way, whether they did the BTEC or not. I'm not joking: I have triple distinction students from BTEC curses who can't use a camera properly, or couldn't answer a simple question like, "If I set a lens to f8, and opened up the aperture 2 stops, what f stop would I be on?" . Another question I always ask is "What do you read about photography?" and hardly any do.




I am well aware of the difference between education and training, but there is now a big However... Now that students are faced with a massive bill at the end of their degree they are faced with the reality of having to monetize what they have learnt.
Unfortunately there is a big gap between what they can offer, and their own and prospective employers expectations.

It's the photographic industry Terry.. there are no "jobs" :) Who are these employees you are referring to? In the photography industry, you freelance. No photography graduate expects to get a "job". What they expect is to leave with the skills that help them promote themselves, and market themselves, and network, and fine ways to raise their profile... get exhibited, and published. That's what counts. There are no "jobs". It's not like a science degree where you can walk into a job as a graduate. We have a very proven track record of graduates actually getting out there and making it... but it wasn't because we offered any "employment" opportunities, as none exist.


The distinction between education and training, at least as far as expectations are concerned are necessarily becoming blurred.
That Distinction is becoming closer to that required of a Doctor, engineer or architect, where work skills are not only expected but demanded.

Demanded by whom? I'm sorry Terry, but there's absolutely no parallel between doctor/engineer/architect and a photography graduate.


We all enter and work as photographers because we have no other choice It is something in our DNA, It is certainly not because it is easy or highly lucrative. A majority of new young Photographers are forced out of the profession in their early years, because the rewards do not match their financial needs. I was one of the more fortunate ones.

Then they were misled somewhere along the way about what they can expect. Our graduates are left in no doubt whatsoever. We tell them from word go that they've entered a massively competitive arena, where only the best survive. If there are graduates out there who think they'll be waking into jobs and earning decent money from the get go, they've been hugely, and cruelly misled.



For many years Education has been a business. This was felt first by the FE colleges who by their nature have no supporting research funding. They have to rely entirely on their funding councils current structure.
Virtually every management meeting relates to subjects like, retention, supported teaching hours, budgets, accommodation strategy and the like . Bums on seats and completion rates make the difference between meeting your budget or failure.
It is not surprising that final results show little relationship to student ability, especially at the bottom end.

Terry... you really think I need this explaining? This is the reality, yes... but not my studios, classrooms and lecture theatres it's not. When I'm wit my students, managers can go take a running jump. They can **** up education as much as they want (managers very rarely actually know anything about higher education) but in MY classes, and MY lectures, MY word is what goes, and the minute a manager tries to interfere with what I teach is the day I hand in my notice, and just go back to earning a living as a photographer... which is crossing my mind more and more lately as they try and force more and more FE inspired bullsh1t into higher education.

I was inevitable that HE had to enter this world

Not on my watch.

,This has already proved exceedingly difficult for HE departments established in FE colleges.

Yet there's one thing they can't stop, change, or have any interference with, and that's what I actually do with my students in the classroom. All they're doing is making it harder to actually find talented photographers because FE is simply incapable of producing them.
 
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This explains why the undergraduate students we get are so crap these days. It's been apparent to me that FE photgraphy courses aren't working lately. This, and the fact that about 10 hours a week are spent teaching functional skills, maths and english instead of photography.

Further Education is broken in the UK.. just as Schools are. This is now effecting higher education as the suits try to bring in such measures into HE... at this rate degree students will also have to have maths and english as part of their studies. Where will it end? MA students doing maths and english? PhD students doing maths and engish?


They are not out of touch with the modern world of photography though.. as the exposure triangle is not modern... it's the bedrock of everything. The problem is, they want nice, entraining courses for the chimps so they don't leave.

The result is that they get to me (and people like me) in HE, and they simply can not cope.

I'd be VERY interested to learn what course you teach though, as both UAL and BTEC are VERY strict about what course content there should be, and I know for a fact you can't simply "choose" to teach anything, as it's a set curriculum. Are you teaching A level or below?

What college is this we're talking about here? Sounds like a place to avoid.
They do teach basic numeracy and literacy as part of some postgraduate degrees, by the way. At the University I work for, postgraduate education studies (teacher training, basically) have obligatory numeracy and literacy modules. And we're not talking about how to teach numeracy and literacy. We're talking about teaching trainee educators how to use commas and work with percentages.
It's preposterous.

And when I did my PhD, I had to do an intensive statistics course (which I did need, for shame). The reason being that barely any undergraduate science courses (with the exception of psychology) formally teach statistics. Which is a ridiculous state of affairs.
 
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They do teach basic numeracy and literacy as part of some postgraduate degrees, by the way.

I'm losing the will to live.

If anyone had tried to waste the time I was PAYING for on a photography post grad course with numeracy, I'd have left.. simple as that.
 
We had an excellent open maths workshop. and An equally good English work shop. The english one was very helpful to guide both English and foreign students how to present academic work. They catered for any level of maths or english, not just remedial.
Both workshops were extracurricular and any student could enroll and work at their own time and pace. It was all computer based, But there were always tutors present to help.
 
We had an excellent open maths workshop. and An equally good English work shop. The english one was very helpful to guide both English and foreign students how to present academic work. They catered for any level of maths or english, not just remedial.
Both workshops were extracurricular and any student could enroll and work at their own time and pace. It was all computer based, But there were always tutors present to help.

Which is how it should be... optional if you need it, not part of the curriculum!
 
I might be being a bit draconian here, but if you need lessons on basic numeracy you shouldn't be at University for an undergrad. Never mind a postgrad.

I think we have a problem in that University education is now somehow expected of the masses. It should be for people of high academic ability.

Part of the problem is the fetishisation of academic achievement as if it's something more worthy than other pursuits. It's not. It's just different.

Germany has it just about right. In Germany, achievements in non academic areas are explicitly recognised and respected by the education system. The Realschule vs the Gymnasium.
 
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I agree. Academic inflation. Everyone thinks they need a degree... the government put the pressure on, and everyone goes into a panic making sure that everyone can, and does get a degree. A degree is worthless these days - they're like arse holes... we've all got one. They're dumbed down too. The degree you'd have got 20 years ago was so much more difficult to attain.
 
[QUOTE="Pookeyhead, post: 6509512, member: 57603"They're dumbed down too. The degree you'd have got 20 years ago was so much more difficult to attain.[/QUOTE]

I can't comment on present day degrees, but on a visit back to my old university (probably about 15 - 20 years ago) one of the professors I spoke to mentioned 4 year MSc degrees they now offer, and added that they were about the same standard as the 3 year BSc I did in the 1960s.
 
You'll get the same things said no matter where you go. Degrees are definitely FAR easier now then they used to be. Back when you got a grant, and colleges were funded well, no one gave a toss if you failed... it's your look out. The best made it, the rest didn't. Not so now. Success rates are a management target, so managers put things in place that let them hit those targets. Managers are just self serving careerists who don't actually care much about education... just themselves and their KPIs/targets.

I feel sorry for students these days. They leave college thinking they've got the same quality of degree their parents had, but the reality is, they haven't. Fortunately, science degrees in proper unis are still robust, or I'd REALLY fear for the future. At the end of the day the "soft" subjects can easily be dismissed as not life or death like some others, but what many fail to realise is that the creative industries are worth billions for the British economy - you're essentially abusing the goose that lays the golden egg by being a short-term, self service managerial nobhead.
 
I might be being a bit draconian here, but if you need lessons on basic numeracy you shouldn't be at University for an undergrad. Never mind a postgrad.

I think we have a problem in that University education is now somehow expected of the masses. It should be for people of high academic ability.

Blame Tony Blair. It was his suggestion that the education system should aim at having 50% of the population going to university. You can't do that without having a big chunk of the entrants of just average ability, and given selection inaccuracy, some below. Which is why more and more of first year university classes are taken up with remedial catch up for those students who had bad teachers or couldn't be bothered learning.

Incidentally, I learned photography before auto exposure or auto focus were invented. I do hear youngsters talking about the exposure triangle. Never been quite sure why it's called a triangle. There's nothing triangular about it that I can see. It's just three variables which affect exposure. You could call it a triplet or a trio or a trinity. Calling it a triangle suggests poor English or Maths to this pedant :-)
 
Incidentally, I learned photography before auto exposure or auto focus were invented. I do hear youngsters talking about the exposure triangle. Never been quite sure why it's called a triangle. There's nothing triangular about it that I can see. It's just three variables which affect exposure. You could call it a triplet or a trio or a trinity. Calling it a triangle suggests poor English or Maths to this pedant :)

It's an aid to memorising it... nothing more. Just as Ohm's law is represented as a triangle, but the components of the formula are interchangeable. Be thankful they're getting it at all, as it's so easy to ignore it these days by shooting any old crap and PPing the hell out of it. You and I know there's a quality price to pay, but most people these days wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the ass.
 
It's an aid to memorising it... nothing more. Just as Ohm's law is represented as a triangle, but the components of the formula are interchangeable.
Ohm's law and other similar simple formulas with three terms are presented as triangles for a specific reason. It's not like the arbitrary arrangement of the exposure triangle.

Voltage is always on the top, because it is the product of resistance and current. And if you want to find out the resistance using the voltage and current, the voltage sits above the current which designates it as the numerator and the current as the divisor (and the same thing for finding out the current using the voltage and resistance). Effectively, the horizontal line represented a division and the vertical line represents a multiplication. So the components are not interchangeable in the Ohm's law triangle; for it to make sense, voltage always has to be on top (although the I and R are interchangeable).

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@ghoti

I get that....but being arranged as a triangle helps people visualise the formula. V=IxR.... R= V/I and I = V/R When you have three things to remember, arranging them in a triangle quickly allows you to visualise one, and remember the two remaining parts. Many such calculations that have three components are arranged in a triangle to aid this process, whether the triangle has any mathematical significance or not.

Same with ISO, Shutter speed, and aperture, even though there is no direct mathematical calculation as a result of doing so. It's just a neat, pretty, visual way of remembering, and being pedantic over the fact that there is no "triangle" is a bit of a train spotterish thing to do... if you don't mind me saying so :) If it helps beginners memorise the process, then it's a good thing IMO. There's no one way to learn, and ANY device that helps people remember facts is valid.
 
All things are not equal when using the Triangle to define exposure.
Aperture also controls depth of field, and the magnitude of diffusion.
Shutter speed controls stopping power and the ability to blur parts of the image or even hide moving objects.
ISO changes the amplification of the signal and the resulting noise levels, but perhaps often more importantly, the available dynamic range.

To teach it as simply three ways to balance exposure is far too simplistic. The costs and gains of the choices are as important as the exposure. to the final outcomes.
 
All things are not equal when using the Triangle to define exposure.
Aperture also controls depth of field, and the magnitude of diffusion.
Shutter speed controls stopping power and the ability to blur parts of the image or even hide moving objects.
ISO changes the amplification of the signal and the resulting noise levels, but perhaps often more importantly, the available dynamic range.

To teach it as simply three ways to balance exposure is far too simplistic. The costs and gains of the choices are as important as the exposure. to the final outcomes.

I'd have hoped it would be a given that anyone teaching the three aspects of exposure would make it clear how each of them individually affect the image...
 
I'd have hoped it would be a given that anyone teaching the three aspects of exposure would make it clear how each of them individually affect the image...

So would I.
however people seem to then be unable to see the wood for the trees.
the problem then becomes which to teach first.
 
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