THE PP GAME!

Pookeyhead said:
If you're working on the RAW in Lightroom... then you're fine, as you'll be working with a 12bit.. possibly 14bit file. If that's the case, then the banding is excessive processing.. probably excessive levels, curves, or excessive colour filtration during black and white processing.
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Ok, thank you..... I'm guessing then that setting the temp slider to it's max of 50000 is the cause then, as the other sliders, curves were only minimal adjustments.
Thanks for the explanation.
 
Thanks David....

Pookeyhead said:
Actually... now I look at Graham's more closely... there are some real issues.
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:thinking: My last step from TIFF to jpg is just asking Picasa to save as...... no options given as to quality or anything there..... I'll maybe try letting PS do the final save as jpg....


Pookeyhead said:
Anyhooo..... over to you Graham :) Let's see what fiendishly difficult image you conjure up :)
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nope.... I'm going to be kind this time - nice and simple ickle birdies.....

f00b.jpg


22zb.jpg


http://speedy.sh/ZDb8c/DSC-2843.NEF

http://speedy.sh/5vGq8/DSC-2798.NEF

Unitl Monday afternoon............. :thumbs:
 
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overbez said:
:thinking: My last step from TIFF to jpg is just asking Picasa to save as...... no options given as to quality or anything there.....
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That sounds like a particularly crap system!! Yeah.. take control of how compressed it is. Always use as little as you can get away with.

I'll have a crack at your images as soon as I can :)
 
Usually when people post 2, you can do either, or both, but doing both shouldn't give you an advantage. The best piece of processing should win.
 
Vettahead said:
This look like compression bands to me guys.
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All entirely possible. Checking the TIFF created will answer that... unless you exported straight to JPEG... then you may well never know.


[edit]

arse.. sorry for double post.
 
symmetricalOCD said:
I think people need to re-evaluate what criticism is and why it's necessary before taking the next step, this isn't the critique part of the forum, yet it's become more important than the actual post processing and stages.
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???

Isn't the point of this thread to A) Have fun, and B) improve processing techniques? How else can you judge who's image is the best unless you critique it?


Sorry... I'm puzzled.
 
Hi guys. I see these as fairly simple to edit shots.... so I posted two in case anyone gets bored. No extra credit for doing both. Best image IMO takes the win.

Critique is is good, criticism is not so good..... if simple to changes in workflow can make a difference to the final image then I'm all in favour of highlighting issues.

At the end of the day I'm sure all images posted are our best efforts and worthy of a win in our eyes.. judging can be hard and is often harder than the editing.

Haveing fun and learning is why I'm here. :thumbs:
 
I think less is more with this one. They're wildlife shots, and you have to be careful editing wildlife shots... people get a bit upset if you change things from reality too much.

Lens profile and CAs
crop
Levels
curves
Some selective burning on the Robin image
light noise reduction and light sharpening.
selective lens blurring to reduce DOF and soften branches.

That's it

2 minutes each.

Critique Please
fbC5jM4l.jpg


44CsIsAl.jpg
 
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symmetricalOCD said:
I think people need to re-evaluate what criticism is and why it's necessary before taking the next step, this isn't the critique part of the forum, yet it's become more important than the actual post processing and stages.
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I must admit I would like to hear from you more on this as I find I read your post & take it one of two ways each being the opposites of the other.

From my position I have been very active, on this thread more than nay other/s, & rarely missed putting in an edit even when the topic is outside of my normal comfort zone. I have learnt a lot from YouTube tutorials & put the learning into reality with my editing BUT!!!

BUT I feel if we are not careful there is the pursuance of only one way of going which is only the very subtle, don't do much to the shot & end up with all the edits looing very similar to each other which has been happening in recent times. This to my mind is NOT the way to go but I accept, if I am in the minority, then so it shall be & maybe time for me to have enjoyed the time on the thread but move on/away from it.

However the end result is more than just a theoretically perfect demonstration of the subtleties of each of the PP techniques which can be clinically cold lacking creativity. Surely there is so much much more - what about letting out hair down & showing real artistic flair or do the pixel peepers have no time for this?

The critique never used to be part of the thread and is not suggested in the OP's intention - Phil are you there - I s it? The critique is OK'ish but what about the "I like it because" forgetting the request for 'high res' images which is going yet another step further taking away (for me) the fun. I don't want my edits scrutinising by every square millimetre - do others?

So yes would like to hear more (from you Ben or anyone) & I am happy to expand further of my thoughts.
 
DayDreamer said:
BUT I feel if we are not careful there is the pursuance of only one way of going which is only the very subtle,
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Isn't that down to the judge? If it's your image being edited, then you decide what wins, and why. I may be judging from a totally different viewpiont, for different reasons. You may reward massively retouched, far from reality images. I on the other hand go for professional quality retouching and editing that would stand up to scrutiny and printing.

Surely if variety is what you want, then you leave it up to the person judging to decide what's best, and each time the preference of the judge will dictate, and as we're all different, you'll get a different result each time.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Isn't that down to the judge? If it's your image being edited, then you decide what wins, and why. I may be judging from a totally different viewpiont, for different reasons. You may reward massively retouched, far from reality images. I on the other hand go for professional quality retouching and editing that would stand up to scrutiny and printing.

Surely if variety is what you want, then you leave it up to the person judging to decide what's best, and each time the preference of the judge will dictate, and as we're all different, you'll get a different result each time.
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All points of view are encouraged & I really hope more join in the debate.

I totally accept what you say & if you notice I never submitted an entry to your last picture as NO I don't want to feel my 'high res' image is now to be 'pixel peeped'. I feel there is an element of creativity needed, in teaching photography, to allow those leaning to decide which direction they wish to go - do you?
 
DayDreamer said:
All points of view are encouraged & I really hope more join in the debate.

I totally accept what you say & if you notice I never submitted an entry to your last picture as NO I don't want to feel my 'high res' image is now to be 'pixel peeped'. I feel there is an element of creativity needed, in teaching photography, to allow those leaning to decide which direction they wish to go - do you?
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I do, but quality is important too. A 800 pixel image hides so much.. anyone can mess around with such a low res image and get something to look OK. What's the point though? Do you archive all your images at 800 pixels? If you win a competition one day are you going to refuse sending them a 100MB TIFF because you don't want them to pixel peep? And if you did send it, would it stand up to scrutiny at that res? No one seems to care about quality any more.

You speak as if creativity and quality can't go hand in hand. If your creative process is technically rubbish (not that any of yours are rubbish - I'm speaking generally), then it's useless, no matter how creative it is.

I'm here to learn from others, and hopefully I can give help in return... to allow us all to improve. I've been a photographer for 28 years now, and I still learn something new every single day. I do so by receiving feedback on my work, and listening to what others say... and looking at other people's work. That's how you learn... not by avoiding things that make you uncomfortable.

If this just becomes a "Oooh.. I like that" thread based in a pointless low res image and no explanations offered to those who didn't win, I'm out of here: It will be a utterly pointless, self-congratulatory feel good thread. There are enough of those already. If that's the case, then I'll depart.. no arguments... I just don't see the point.

If it's a copyright issue... then just use images that you're not really bothered about. That's what I do... it's not about the images.. the photography (plenty of other threads for that)... it's about the editing. If you feel your editing can't stand up to scrutiny, then surely that's exactly why you should be doing so? If anyone fears showing a hi res image for fear of critique, then surely you must feel there's something wrong with it. If that is so, getting feedback from colleagues and peers is the best way to improve. I fail to see how else it will happen.

Just let Phil decide anyway.. it's his thread. I'll happily abide by whatever guidelines are set for this thread.
 
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I decided before joining in that my edits would get more and more 'creative' to stretch the od shopping muscles, but i feel if we are to choose a 'winner' the op may have to set a few rules of what he is looking for or it becomes a shooting for the moon exersize. The crops thing being an example one wanted a crop the other didn't, maybe a form factory tupe thing like


1. creativity level (lets say 1 being basic slders and curves 2 cloning and andvanced colour correction 3 go for broke!)

2 cropping expected yes/no

3. theme (maybe give a random word here say 'low fi' ) this would maybe push people who are comfortable doing standard edits to try new ideas?

im just riffing here and im happy either way :) just just some thoughts :)
 
Vettahead said:
I decided before joining in that my edits would get more and more 'creative' to stretch the od shopping muscles,
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Nowt wrong with that... but it has to be a usable process. If it looks cool, but technically makes the image fubar as far as print, competition entry or publication goes... is it worth learning? Even if you don't do any of the above... if a way can be found to achieve the same thing, but with much higher technical quality... wouldn't you rather do that, or hear an explanation or suggestion that can help you achieve that?

That's my take on it.

I don't see the point in adding rules. Each person feeds back as they feel is appropriate. It's their image. If people can't handle crit, then they should stop posting their editing skills up to be judged! LOL
 
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My view on this..... being new to photography and processing, and to joining this 'PP Game'....
If an image is put up by someone for editing, it is down to them to decide how they want to 'critique' it, and one has to take into account that there are rank beginners, and more experienced people editing.....
If people want to critique(or criticise) my image, as in it's editing technique, then surely that's to my benefit, to aid the learning process.....
The option is always there to miss a round if I feel I just can't edit something....so to see the edits of others, and to read the feedback given is helpful to me...

And, as for creative photography, and or subtle editing.... due to lack of skill, and my slap dash approach to processing, some of my edits are far from subtle..... I edit to how I want the image to look.....but having someone point out errors that could have been avoided is a good way to learn, and understand....most peoples editing processes go way over the top of my head....

I don't agree that there should be stipulations or rules given with an image....because, the image poster then limits whatever creative edit someone may have wanted to do...

So basically, I'm happy for my edits to be critiqued, or not....
 
Vettahead said:
If an image is put up by someone for editing, it is down to them to decide how they want to 'critique' it,


I agree with this, but would be nice to know what we are aiming for
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My understanding of this was that you edit it as you like, so long as you don't 'add' stuff....
I think that if we were given guidelines as to what to aim for, then we would all edit pretty much the same way, and there would then be no surprise edits.... so, edit it however you like....it'll either be liked or not...
 
I'm a newcomer but have read back through most of the thread, I find the critiques informative.

I am more than happy to have someone criticising what I do, it's just a game after all and I might learn something. It's up to me whether I agree with any criticism, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that :)
 
Pookeyhead said:
Isn't that down to the judge? If it's your image being edited, then you decide what wins, and why. I may be judging from a totally different viewpiont, for different reasons. You may reward massively retouched, far from reality images. I on the other hand go for professional quality retouching and editing that would stand up to scrutiny and printing.

Surely if variety is what you want, then you leave it up to the person judging to decide what's best, and each time the preference of the judge will dictate, and as we're all different, you'll get a different result each time.
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that's the problem, this isn't a professional photography or printing studio :bang: most people here are amateur (including myself) they aren't into scrutiny or extremely high standards, I agree up to a point, we don't want really low standards but no-one here is being paid e.t.c it's supposed to be a bit of fun, and posting a 4K 2600ppi jpeg edit whilst being scrutinised just isn't fun.
 
Solo man said:
My understanding of this was that you edit it as you like, so long as you don't 'add' stuff....
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That's how I see it, yes. However... the judging is by the owner of the image, and each person will be looking for different things in their images.
 
symmetricalOCD said:
that's the problem, this isn't a professional photography or printing studio :bang: most people here are amateur (including myself) they aren't into scrutiny or extremely high standards, I agree up to a point, we don't want really low standards but no-one here is being paid e.t.c it's supposed to be a bit of fun, and posting a 4K 2600ppi jpeg edit whilst being scrutinised just isn't fun.
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So amateurs shouldn't strive for quality, or high standards? LOL... not low mind you, but not high either. You're an amateur, so mediocre is just fine :)


I don't see the problem. Everyone posts up their RAW files... you'll be editing the RAW file, so why not post up the results you actually achieved? What possible reason could there be to downsize it? Just dump it on Imgur or Flickr so we can properly assess how good your editing is. It's actually one step LESS for you to do, as you don't have to resize it.

I don't think I've much more to add to this, except to say that no one has actually said that you HAVE to upload a hi res image anyway!!! I asked people to if possible, as it helps me judge the quality of the work, but not everyone did.. it's up to them. If you don't want to, then don't.

(shrug).
 
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Pookeyhead said:
That's how I see it, yes. However... the judging is by the owner of the image, and each person will be looking for different things in their images.
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Yes, and I agree with that....it's down to whoever posted the image to judge it according to whatever is important to them...
As a beginner, I'm all for more experienced critique from those who want to give it....I've learnt a lot about editing from this thread...but, in saying that, I don't get too hung up on always doing things technically 'right', I still edit stuff how I want...
 
Pookeyhead said:
So amateurs shouldn't strive for quality, or high standards? LOL... not low mind you, but not high either. You're an amateur, so mediocre is just fine :)


I don't see the problem. Everyone posts up their RAW files... you'll be editing the RAW file, so why not post up the results you actually achieved? What possible reason could there be to downsize it? Just dump it on Imgur or Flickr so we can properly assess how good your editing is. It's actually one step LESS for you to do, as you don't have to resize it.

I don't think I've much more to add to this, except to say that no one has actually said that you HAVE to upload a hi res image anyway!!! I asked people to if possible, as it helps me judge the quality of the work, but not everyone did.. it's up to them. If you don't want to, then don't.

(shrug).
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...that didn't sound patronising at all...

:gag:
 
You're the one suggesting amateurs should settle for less than professionals... not me.


I fail to see what there was in that quote that was patronising. All I'm saying is, if you don't want to, then don't. No one is actually making you do anything.
 
Things seem a little heated here just now :thinking: I've not had time to get on much, can I ask what hi res images you ask for Pookeyhead. I load all mine (for here) via photobucket as I don't want them on my Flickr photostream. I ALWAYS want to know how to improve quality of my images so any tips always welcome. But things have got a bit TOO critical just lately :bonk:
 
I'm in the wrong thread... see you later guys.. have fun.
 
Pookeyhead said:
I'm in the wrong thread... see you later guys.. have fun.
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Your choice David, I for one will say thanks for your help in this thread. :thumbs:

I feel that simply picking a winner with no comments on all the other submissions is a bit unfair. As I said before, I'm sure everyone thinks their entry is "perfect" and should be a winner, and to give a pointer as to why the "judge" didn't choose it is the least they can do.

However, there is no 'rule' to say this and each judge can say as little or as much as they wish.

Seems that David is withdrawing his entries for the bird edits...... (Unless I hear otherwise David). Lets get back on track -
best bird edit by Tuesday evening gets handed the crown for this round.


Also, I don;t feel this thread still belongs to the thread starter...... It may well have been his baby to start with, but seems to have grown up and left home now. And is here to be managed by the participants IMO.

Very close to 100 pages now........ :thumbs:
 
Wow what’s going on. This is the pp “GAME”.
I think David is correct in as much as “IF“ as an amateur you want to attain a higher standard you have to submit your edit in such a way, that it can be appreciated as such. If you only want a bit of fun, as in a “GAME” then post your edit accordingly, after all if the person judging doesn’t have the experience or the eye to criticize, then they will pick just on the grounds of “I like this one”.
Just my two pennies worth.
Rhodese.
 
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Rhodese said:
Wow what’s going on. This is the pp “GAME”.
I think David is correct in as much as “IF“ as an amateur you want to attain a higher standard you have to submit your edit in such a way, that it can be appreciated as such. If you only want a bit of fun, as in a “GAME” then post your edit accordingly, after all the if person judging doesn’t have the experience or the eye to criticize, then they will pick just on the grounds of “I like this one”.
Just my two pennies worth.
Rhodese.
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I don/'t disagree with what you say but where folks need to be careful if the stance they take when giving the criticism as it should be gentle, constructive, & not as if they are assuming a 'superior than thou' attitude. This game has been (was) fun & I have taken part for a long time & over the past year (last time I looked) I was possibly the most frequent poster (talking rubbish & 'Hob Knobs' usually but that's good.

I hope to see back those who used to take part very regularly but seem to have gone AWOL.
 
overbez said:
Also, I don;t feel this thread still belongs to the thread starter...... It may well have been his baby to start with, but seems to have grown up and left home now. And is here to be managed by the participants IMO.
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I understand how you feel & I can go either way. I'm not sure if there any mods who would offer guidance on this aspect as Phil (OP) dips in now & again so does that negate his right to dip in & have a say. Whichever I feel the rules need to be updated, a little, especially for new members.

Phil are you there :shrug:

PS Just asked the Mods to comment on this aspect.
 
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Gosh.

If I'm understanding this right...the debate is about putting up high-res files?

Why? To show compression artifacts? To give a clear understanding of the processing?

...or to give an edge in the decisions making?

It doesn't matter, in the interest of fairness to everyone, let's stick to just posting up the image as normal - we're judging an image, not it's pixels, I see no reason to post a large file.

If I'm not getting everything then someone will have to explain it in under 50,000 words :)

So do we have a winner and shall we continue or should I post up a new one??
 
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I too would like to thank David for his invaluable critique, and took it in the spirit it was offered....
People have to want to stay and take part in threads like this, however, if things become too one sided, then the balance of the thread is no longer there....an editing/processing thread/game such as this cannot survive simply on an "I like it" basis, otherwise beginners have nothing to aim for, and no way of understanding better options/techniques...
For the likes of me, I have no experience to offer critique, or of understanding what critique(in a technical sense) I should be looking at, as I don't possess the technical know how, I look to other more experienced members to address that....

As for 'rules'.... why is there a need for set rules.... the idea was to post an image for others to edit, so long as they didn't add objects and stuff...and a 'winner' would be chosen ...... some just chose to offer more extended feedback than others on what merits they chose for their 'winning' image....I didn't see that as too difficult to grasp....nor something to get too hung up about.
 
Thought about this one, the only way forward and to be fair to everyone is to update the rules with;

If posters would like feedback or critique on their image, they should say so in bold to make it clear.

I get it that some people would like feedback to improve. Others may not want feedback and could be frustrated to keep getting it.

Let's move on with that simple, yet effective new ruling :)
 
Here's my entry:

971316_10153032051165305_1967059369_n.jpg


In ACR:

-Adjusted exposure slightly (up) and moved around highlights and contrast (both up).
-applied localised sharpening and clarity with the adjustment brush to the bird. Applied NR and -clarity to the BG.

IN PS:

-cloned out the brance behind him.
-cropped.

Time taken: 5mins.

FEEDBACK PLEASE.
 
Phil Young said:
I get it that some people would like feedback to improve. Others may not want feedback and could be frustrated to keep getting it.
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Hi Phil, I think that ^^ sums up things very well... :thumbs:

Rememeber, we're all of different abilities and experiences, and all will pick our winner based on different criteria....

In past rounds, I've picked my winner based on "trying something new or different", producing the image I wanted to create myself but couldn't, or more recently an entry where the winner embraced a form of editing they'd not done before.

The variety is what we need to keep the thread going, and I think recently we've had a pretty good variety of winners, participants, and therefore edits and images.
 
Phil Young said:
we're judging an image, not it's pixels, I see no reason to post a large file.
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And if part of the process was masking an area off... and they want feedback on their work... but the image is 800 pixels?

Fair enough then. Them's the rules, then them's the rules.

I'd like more critical feedback.. I'll just have to look elsewhere for it.

So long.. thanks for all the fish :) Have fun people. I'll still play if there's an interesting image, but just for fun... no feedback.
 
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