The myth of sharpness and the relative (un)importance of it.

Agree with Ray. I find the whole sharpness thing way overblown here and a lot of the highly praised photos, whilst technically good have abosolutely no life to them. I like to think that photography captures a moment and it should have an impact on the viewer. If all you can think of is the sharpness of the image then you are missing out on so much more.

I get depressed every time I see crit on here that only talks about the sharpness. "Lovely sharp image" is not crit.
 
there are lots of times when they can crossover though.

You can describe a photo as a little soft and the reason is that the eye might not be properly in focus in a protrait for example.

You could equally say the focus just missed.

In those circumstances, the implication is (generally) understood and the differentation is not critical to the discussion. In this discussion it is critical and what was meant by sharpness was made explicit in the OP and to bring attention to the subsequent confusion between focus and sharpness is a valid point (a well-focussed but not sharp point ;)).
 
Sharpness is important, I want to see detail in my photographs not a blurry mush. you can always reduce sharpness to get a specfic effect but you can't make blur sharp.

:plusone: too much rubbish marquerading as 'art' ... yes you can have an artistic 'effect' but blurred photos with weird angles and/or indecipherable content does not automatically make it art anymore than the 'kings new clothes' are suitable for a bad winter!
 
:plusone: too much rubbish marquerading as 'art' ... yes you can have an artistic 'effect' but blurred photos with weird angles and/or indecipherable content does not automatically make it art anymore than the 'kings new clothes' are suitable for a bad winter!

Agreed, a lack of sharpness does not equal "art". But the opposite is also true, which is the OPs point (i think!)
 
in other words

no you don't have an example :lol: :D:D

surely at the end of the day photography is subjective and people value different things. Whats to say that one element of a photograph is anymore important than any other. Why should composition be a more powerful thing than how sharp and how much detail is seen in a photograph if thats your bag? I see some photos which move me in ways that aren't sharp at all, but I see others where the first thing that smacks me in the face is WOW, look at how sharp that is and how much detail. Depending on the genre - like a photo taken in a war one compared with a macro shot of a fly with detail that I've never even seen before.

Since it's all subjective then nothing is more important over any other part of the photo - because its all down to personal opinion anyway :thumbs:

Your second paragraph is the point that I'm trying to make. The mantra of 'all photographs must be sharp' is a false one, the end result is far more imprtant.

After all Canon would hardly produce a lens that has deliberate soft focus if there wasn't a demand for it! The use of vaseline to achieve the same effect was common in film days.

There is no panacea for producing an image, and getting fixated on a single element is erroneous.

As I said, sharpness has it's time and place, but is not always a desirable quality of a photograph.
 
does it really matter how one person takes a photo, thats just as snobbish as saying manual is the only way to go etc.
Not snobbish at all, just my misunderstanding of what art is. Anyway, nothing to do with this thread really :)
 
A lot of the time it depends on what the subject is as to whether it needs to be pin sharp or not. I don't particularly like the artsy soft focus shots you sometimes see, but not every shot has to be pin sharp to be appreciated.
I do find it very amusing when people who have sworn by a certain lens will suddenly drop it like a stone when it's superceded (70-200 2.8 IS L Mk1 to MkII and 24-70 2.8 L MkI to MkII being the most obvious) or when a new body is released they say the old one was never that great (5D MkII to MkIII being the obvious one here) and just go off and spend another £x000 on something.
 
there are lots of times when they can crossover though.

You can describe a photo as a little soft and the reason is that the eye might not be properly in focus in a protrait for example.

You could equally say the focus just missed.

Getting something in focus is skill.

Getting something sharp is the lens.

You can do something about the former but the latter is out of your hands unless you buy a new lens.

If in your scenario with portraits and you are constantly nailing that focus but the photo is not as sharp as you like them to be, then clearly you have out grown your gear and time to upgrade.

If however you miss focus on the eye half the time then that has nothing to do with whether the lens is sharp or not, it is user error and room to improve upon as a photographer.
 
Getting something in focus is skill.

Getting something sharp is the lens.

you forgot about shutter speed.

You could have focussed perfectly and you could have the 135mm f/2 but if you are shooting at 1/60 then there is a good chance the subject won't be as sharp as if you shot at 1/2000

That is as much skill as focussing - understanding your conditions and making the correct chocie with exposure.

Or even skill in how to handle the camera - shooting at 1/60 can produce a sharp or soft image regardless of focus depending on how steady your hold is - which is again down to skill.
 
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you forgot about shutter speed.

You could have focussed perfectly and you could have the 135mm f/2 but if you are shooting at 1/60 then there is a good chance the subject won't be as sharp as if you shot at 1/2000

That is as much skill as focussing - understanding your conditions and making the correct chocie with exposure.

Or even skill in how to handle the camera - shooting at 1/60 can produce a sharp or soft image regardless of focus depending on how steady your hold is - which is again down to skill.

I'm struggling to see the point you are making, other than that a slow shutter speed can cause motion blur (camera-end or subject-end).

It seems obvious to me that what the OP is talking about is the (obsession with the) resolving ability of a lens (or other equipment)
Raymond Lin said:
My observation is that a lot of people often put lens sharpness above everything else.

...Truth of the matter is that all cameras out there will take sharp pictures, sharp enough for 99% of consumers out there not to notice the difference between a Sony one to a Nikon one to a Fuji one.

...But it seems people want to move on from it [kit lens]mostly because they think it isn't sharp enough.

...However, personally, once I know a lens is sharp, (I don't do test charts of any sorts) by taking it out in the real world and shoot with it, I know that it is not front of back focusing.

and that such obsession can turn into not seeing the wood for the trees:
Raymond Lin said:
...They question the quality of their lenses. I think a lot of the time, these kind of exercise is almost an hindrance in the development of one's photographic journey. They place sharpness as the top priority when criticising a photo.

...Think less about gear, they are merely a tool. Think of the story of the photo.
 
Getting something in focus is skill.

Getting something sharp is the lens.

You can do something about the former but the latter is out of your hands unless you buy a new lens.

If in your scenario with portraits and you are constantly nailing that focus but the photo is not as sharp as you like them to be, then clearly you have out grown your gear and time to upgrade.

If however you miss focus on the eye half the time then that has nothing to do with whether the lens is sharp or not, it is user error and room to improve upon as a photographer.

But would you dismiss a photo just because you had missed focus, even if say it was your only chance at the shot, it had captured a lovely moment, the lighting and composition were great, etc?
 
I'm struggling to see the point you are making, other than that a slow shutter speed can cause motion blur (camera-end or subject-end).

its quite obvious. Ray said that .....

Getting something in focus is skill.

Getting something sharp is the lens.

You can do something about the former but the latter is out of your hands unless you buy a new lens.

I disagree. Sharpness isn't just about the lens, and it isn't out of your hands. There is skill needed to get a sharp photo also - knowing the shutter speed to use and being able to hold your camera still at low shutters.

Does that make it clearer?
 
I find good sharp pictures are hard enough to take. Good unsharp pictures must be a nightmare.
 
Not snobbish at all, just my misunderstanding of what art is. Anyway, nothing to do with this thread really :)


art is a pair of tits and a bush out in the country side or in a derelict building with a dusty chandelier lol
 
Got to agree with the sentiment, I've posted similar comments enough before.

If the best anyone can say about an image I've taken is, "That's sharp", then the image is a failure. But there's also a general failure to understand the principles of aesthetic theory, and because it's often very subjective it's not a macho, testosterone guy thing in the same way that getting all excited about shint new gear is (shiny, precious.. ..).

If you do some fairly random Flickr/Facebook surfing there is a definite gender bias approach to a lot (but not all) photography.

It's easy to deride the self-portrait of a angst-ridden teenage girl levitating over a bed of roses in a forest clearing wearing a floaty dress, but when you look at the intention behind it, it's almost entirely aesthetic without a hint of gear envy or "what camera/lens did you use to take that?".

Take a look a typical guy shot.. and the comments are almost all about the gear used, sharpness.. you won't get a comment saying "F*** me, that's beautuful, man.. just love the way you've caught the soft evening light and how it plays with the curves of hillside. The whole thing's just so balanced between the delicate light and the subtle detail in the shadow". Instead, you'll probably get, "You want to open up a bit, f/22's giving you diffraction issues at the sub-pico pixel level, another couple of stops of ND would sort that. Pretty bad cyan fringing on pixels at 400% viewing, have you thought about getting the SPC-100 when it comes out, the franken-matrix pixel array is supposed to sort that problem out".


Give me an interesting image that I'd be happy to put on the wall and look at every day, over a technically perfect image that doesn't do something for the soul. Sharpness comes a distant runner up to soul-stirring every time.
 
The biggest amount of snobbery is against mobile imaging. I think some that kick off are just jealous that a phone photo can be better in many ways then their efforts with expensive gear. It takes away their excuses.

I have no doubt whatsoever that this applies to forum members here.
 
The biggest amount of snobbery is against mobile imaging. I think some that kick off are just jealous that a phone photo can be better in many ways then their efforts with expensive gear. It takes away their excuses.

The problem persists in the view that one image can be better than another. There is no "better".

One image can be more pleasing to look at than another, but this is a culturally constructed subjective determination. It's not an absolute that can be measured against penile length a ruler..
 
Got to agree with the sentiment, I've posted similar comments enough before.

If the best anyone can say about an image I've taken is, "That's sharp", then the image is a failure. But there's also a general failure to understand the principles of aesthetic theory, and because it's often very subjective it's not a macho, testosterone guy thing in the same way that getting all excited about shint new gear is (shiny, precious.. ..).

If you do some fairly random Flickr/Facebook surfing there is a definite gender bias approach to a lot (but not all) photography.

It's easy to deride the self-portrait of a angst-ridden teenage girl levitating over a bed of roses in a forest clearing wearing a floaty dress, but when you look at the intention behind it, it's almost entirely aesthetic without a hint of gear envy or "what camera/lens did you use to take that?".

Take a look a typical guy shot.. and the comments are almost all about the gear used, sharpness.. you won't get a comment saying "F*** me, that's beautuful, man.. just love the way you've caught the soft evening light and how it plays with the curves of hillside. The whole thing's just so balanced between the delicate light and the subtle detail in the shadow". Instead, you'll probably get, "You want to open up a bit, f/22's giving you diffraction issues at the sub-pico pixel level, another couple of stops of ND would sort that. Pretty bad cyan fringing on pixels at 400% viewing, have you thought about getting the SPC-100 when it comes out, the franken-matrix pixel array is supposed to sort that problem out".


Give me an interesting image that I'd be happy to put on the wall and look at every day, over a technically perfect image that doesn't do something for the soul. Sharpness comes a distant runner up to soul-stirring every time.

:clap::clap::clap:
 
Do you ever write a post that isn't trying to start an argument? :shake:

interesting -

firstly I wasnt asking you, I was asking POAH. Secondly it was a question and that is all, no need to spit the dummy about it. It's something i have observed that he always does and was commenting. It would appear in this case it is in fact you that is spoiling for an argument. :shrug:
 
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weybourne said:
I'm struggling to see the point you are making, other than that a slow shutter speed can cause motion blur (camera-end or subject-end).
its quite obvious. Ray said that .....

Raymond Lin said:
Getting something in focus is skill.

Getting something sharp is the lens.

You can do something about the former but the latter is out of your hands unless you buy a new lens.
I disagree. Sharpness isn't just about the lens, and it isn't out of your hands. There is skill needed to get a sharp photo also - knowing the shutter speed to use and being able to hold your camera still at low shutters.

Does that make it clearer?
yeah it does - you missed out of your quote the whole point I was making, i.e. "It seems obvious to me that what the OP is talking about is the (obsession with the) resolving ability of a lens (or other equipment)".

You're arguing against a point that the OP wasn't making by searching for examples of [lack of] sharpness outside of the scope which he had originally defined. He even cites an example of deliberately using motion blur, to give a photo a sense of movement, in support against that obsession. That is why I struggle to see the point you are making.
 
If I would only accept a razor sharp image then I would not step out of the door with most of the old film cameras that I possess....... As for digital, many shots I take come out not as sharp as maybe they could have been had i used different settings/ tripod etc but often the photographic moment arrives and it's point camera, shoot......I prefer to get a noisy, slight OOF focus image then no record of the event at all.
Finally, as for equipment, digital equipment...what I have is now several years old but works fine...yes there are many advances since my D80 but if you are happy with the results from your gear, like I am from mine, why try keep up with the unrelentless search for the "perfect" presumably super sharp image by continuanly upgrading. I know for a fact that my photography skills would not improve if I forked out x amount of pounds on more modern kit ....the only real benefit that I see out there for me is the advances in less noise at high ISOs but I can live with a bit of noise in my shots ( something the D80 is good at giving at ISO 800 and upwards! lol).


Edit: I have come across fairly recent attitudes of photographers wanting to achieve "oldie worldy" style images.....why pay a mint for a D3 and PS3 to achieve that when it can be done with a Kodak Box Brownie for about a tenner!
 
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This must be a different Raymond Lin to the one on overclockers I'm used to, who has shown off many pictures with a 100% crop to show how sharp his picture is or how awesomely sharp his lens is ;)

Not a pixel peeper my bottom :p

:lol:
 
Edit: I have come across fairly recent attitudes of photographers wanting to achieve "oldie worldy" style images.....why pay a mint for a D3 and PS3 to achieve that when it can be done with a Kodak Box Brownie for about a tenner!


:D ;) .... soaking in tea to achieve that brown old worldly look and then burnt around the edges to look like parchment... Sharp as heck though ....madness!
 
:D ;) .... soaking in tea to achieve that brown old worldly look and then burnt around the edges to look like parchment... Sharp as heck though ....madness!

And I thought I had kept my method a well guarded secret......I just knew I should have patented it! :D :D
 
If my eyes can't distinguish sharpness on a large print (24 x 20 inches say) or on my monitor when it is scaled to fit, then its good enough for me.

dpreview.com forums are disgusting for gear critique. If you spend long enough there you'll never buy a camera, let alone start taking photos with one.

I can't stand fanboys either. Canon fanboys are the worst (I work with a few), they literally can't say anything bad about Canon even if you do side by side comparisons between superior competitors (even blatant things like size).
 
Raymond, I totally agree with your sentiments about the need to rush into buying the next step of lens as if it's a must-do, a rite of passage . Yep, new lenses with more fancy optics and faster apertures are nice, we all love that newness, but for me, the upgrade/change has to be justified.

Usually it's an overall performance reason; changing from the 18-70mm > Tammy 17-50 was purely for the faster aperture. Going from the Tammy to the Nikon 17-55 was all about build and AF speed. Opticaly there's a gnat's badger between the lenses so there was no obvious gain.

Same for my telephoto zoom. I started with a Sigma 70-200, which was a bargain and did the job grandly despite requiring a focus adjust from new. I always had a nagging doubt about whether that lens, once recailbrated, would work every time for me so in the end I swapped it for a Nikon 80-200mm. The issue of reliability was solved in an instant, whether actually happening or being a placebo effect. I use the 80-200 for some time but in the end, I craved for a bit of VR as a safety net for the lack of ultra-high ISO on my D2X. All, in all, a very sane and methodical approach to upgrade IMO.

"....It seems in this digital age we are all pulled into the trap of pixel peeping, zooming in 100% to see if every eye lash can be counted or if every freckle can be seen. I see threads like these all the time, almost always in a thread from people when they are starting out. They question the quality of their lenses. I think a lot of the time, these kind of exercise is almost an hindrance in the development of one's photographic journey. They place sharpness as the top priority when criticising a photo. If a photo is sharp then it is good. If it is not sharp then it is bad. I have never seen this kind of thinking from a professional photographer. The train of thought into critique of a photo is completely different. Not every photo needs to be crystal clear, not every photo needs to be noise free. Jose Villa is one of the world's best photographers and he shoots film. He deliberately introduce some motion blur in his evening shots because it gives them a sense of movement. So the question is why and when does change. Why does a professional think different?..."

I'm not in 100 per cent agreement with this. It's up to the photographer to assess his or her work as they want to, whether that's looking at it artistically and/or technically. I'm not a pixel peeper but I like to make sure that on the whole, there's visible sharpness. After all, I'm not paid to supply soft images as a rule although bit of blur, camera shake, whatever - it's not a massive issue if the image is smoking hot. But on the whole, sharpness does count for something when you are supplying to a client with certain execrations.

I do agree that for many beginners, starting to look at things to the enth degree can ultimately set you on the wrong path. So what if there's a minuscule amount of CA or other similar anomaly?

I won't go further into what you've written about new bodies, although it makes some sense and does match some of my thoughts (and I can't type any more) :lol:
 
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Part of me agrees, one only has too look in the equipment section and read the "upgrade" threads, upgrading way before the posters talents have hit the buffer of their kit, but I guess a lot of us are guilty of that at one time or another.

The obsession with super,razor sharp images baffles me at times. I regularly see, wildlife especially, shots that are way over sharpened. But I guess that is down to personal preference, as is photography in it`s entirety I suppose.
 
Part of me agrees, one only has too look in the equipment section and read the "upgrade" threads, upgrading way before the posters talents have hit the buffer of their kit, but I guess a lot of us are guilty of that at one time or another.

I was reading a thread on FM, a chap had his pre-order for a 1Dx cancelled by B&H, he was not happy as he had purchased around $200K worth of kit from them since 2004 :eek:

He also had on pre-order D800e, 5D3, D4, Canon 24-70II.

They reasoned that he was reselling it, which he was not.

Reading through the thread it appears that he owns nearly a complete range of Nikon and Canon DSLR bodies and lenses, including the super telephoto's in both makes.

He also has an extensive collection of Hassablad kit.

I have written to him to see if he will adopt me :D
 
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