the john terry racism stuff

[joescrivens]

The only other way I can think of is if it's being said in a jovial mates down the pub sort of way but even then it's taking the p*ss out of the whole racism thing and more than likely said for shock value. But, as said by someone else earlier, if somebody else overhears and takes offense, then it becomes racist...

i've heard that definition before but I disagree with that. It might be racist to them but that doesn't mean it is in fact blanket racism. Just because someone is offended by something doesn't blanket make such a thing offensive, it's just offensive according to their interpretation

also i can think of other examples, I posted one before.

 

[DemiLion]

i've heard that definition before but I disagree with that. It might be racist to them but that doesn't mean it is in fact blanket racism. Just because someone is offended by something doesn't blanket make such a thing offensive, it's just offensive according to their interpretation

also i can think of other examples, I posted one before.

...and yet according to the law it does...

 

[joescrivens]

...and yet according to the law it does...

well, its not quite like that is it? Just because someone alerts the police doesn't mean the person will be charged. They'll be investigated sure but someone else will make the call on if the incident gets punished or not - like a judge/jury

they may make a claim for it but its up to a police officer/jury/judge to make a call if it is.

 

[DemiLion]

The point is that a statement or comment is offensive to someone, whether or not that person the intended recipient is immaterial.

 

[joescrivens]

The point is that a statement or comment is offensive to someone, whether or not that person the intended recipient is immaterial.

well, I disagree.

Anything can be offensive to anyone. That doesn't make the incident offensive. It's only offensive to the person who found it so. The law doesn't automatically find the person being accused of being offensive guilty because someone makes a complaint. AN investigation happens and somebody else decides if the complaint is upheld or not.

If it is then the law has stated the incident was offensive.

If it isn't upheld then the law has decided that the incident was not offensive.

In post 122 you claimed that according to the law even if someone merely complains they are offended then the law will uphold this. That is simply not true.

 

[Davie]

Are you still banging this drum Joe.

If you feel so strongly about it why don't you just pop in to your local nick and, as I suggested in a previous post, call one of the employees a black c**t, you can even try it sort of jovially, hey how ya doing ya black c**t ye.

Let us know when you get out

 

[joescrivens]

Are you still banging this drum Joe.

If you feel so strongly about it why don't you just pop in to your local nick and, as I suggested in a previous post, call one of the employees a black c**t, you can even try it sort of jovially, hey how ya doing ya black c**t ye.

Let us know when you get out

Actually i'm not banging a drum, I'm have a civil conversation about it with those who are doing the same.

This isn't helped by snide posts like this one talking about banging drums

 

[Moos3h]

More to the point, it just highlights want a dim-witted and incredibly ignorant guy he is. Won't stop 10's of thousands of kids looking up to him for his ability to kick a ball roughly where he wants it to go. Weird world we live in, eh?

 

[Davie]

How is it snide. Ok, how do you think you'd get on if you did, nothing?

It IS racist, it IS against the law and YOU would be arrested, now go bang that one.

Finished with this thread, if I want to go over to the BNP forum I'll meet you there.

 

[joescrivens]

How is it snide. Ok, how do you think you'd get on if you did, nothing?

The snideness was about banging a drum like I'm trying to ram my opinion down peoples throats. That's not the case, I think the rest of us are having a very sensible debate actually. At least that's how it feels to me.

The rest of your message I'll not quote because accusing me of being part of the BNP I would hope is about to be moderated out anyway.

 

[Cobra]

This is getting boring now guys
Everyone quit with the snide and personal remarks,
make like a train and get the thread back on track or I'm taking the ball away.......

 

[Richard King]

I have no interest in football... But if anyone in any other workplace spoke like that, they would be disciplined, and probably out on their ear. Most people earning 1/10th or 100th of what these guys do in other workplaces would be crucified for such a comment

Some of these footballers and pop stars really do no know how privileged they are, and it is a damn shame they cant step up to the mark, and behave in a fashion that fits their stature

 

[leftcurl]

A viewer phones the police and says that Joh Terry has been racist and called someone a "black c**t" investigation starts, if it is proved he did say that then next they'll be a trial to see what were the circumstances of the context, who said what etc and then a judge or jury will decide if the act was racist.

even at that point it's still interpretation by the person making the call if they felt it was racist or not. The opinion of the judge or jury can sway it one way or another

i thought it was Ferdinand who made the claim? Tell me if i'm wrong.. i don't know :shrug:

 

[dod]

I don't think it's that simple.

Consider this interaction.

In a football stadium a player screws up a pass. A fan says:

" he's a *****ing nob" says person 1
"who" says person 2

Person 1 now picks a defining feature of the guy he's describing, he could say fat, black, white, bald, Long haired, number 17. Whatever. He just picks a defining feature

He lands on black

"that black nob"

By your definition he is being racist whereas I jus think he has insulted someone and used his color as the defining feature.

I understand what you're saying Joe, in some circumstances the use of the word black could simply be considered as descriptive and therefore non-racist.

However, in the context you've used it, I don't think you can genuinely argue that it isn't racist. It may not be malicious, but it's still racist.

 

[big soft moose]

i thought it was Ferdinand who made the claim? Tell me if i'm wrong.. i don't know :shrug:

according to what I've read ferdinand hasnt yet made a statement to the media about what was said - so I assume its come from the reading of his lips on the footage -but I dont know either.

Given that terry still insists he said 'blind' I presume it hasnt yet been confirmed that he didnt.

that said richard king has a good point - even if terry did say 'blind c--t' its hardly proffesional and would get the average man in the street fired

 

[joescrivens]

i thought it was Ferdinand who made the claim? Tell me if i'm wrong.. i don't know :shrug:

No it was a member of the public

 

[joescrivens]

I understand what you're saying Joe, in some circumstances the use of the word black could simply be considered as descriptive and therefore non-racist.

However, in the context you've used it, I don't think you can genuinely argue that it isn't racist. It may not be malicious, but it's still racist.

I don't think that example I mentioned is racist because he's insulting someone and then when asked to clarify who is being talked about he uses the skin color to differentiate who he means. The insult and the skin color are unrelated, he doesn't care what colour skin he is, he just thinks he's a nob and is describing the person on the pitch he means.

For example if the dialogue went

"who"
"that black lad, he's a nob"

Is that racist? And if not is it any different to putting the two words together to clarify who is being described.

 

[Marc]

I don't think that example I mentioned is racist because he's insulting someone and then when asked to clarify who is being talked about he uses the skin color to differentiate who he means. The insult and the skin color are unrelated, he doesn't care what colour skin he is, he just thinks he's a nob and is describing the person on the pitch he means.

For example if the dialogue went

"who"
"that black lad, he's a nob"

Is that racist? And if not is it any different to putting the two words together to clarify who is being described.

Nope that example isn't racist but putting the 2 words together changes the whole meaning. The word "black" becomes an adjective, therefore it becomes racist.

 

[Richard King]

Exactly. Calling someone a blind cxxt ought to get anyone sacked or severely disciplined

 

[akr]

I've slipped from page one to here.

For clarity, a member of the public made an anonymous complaint to the police, who after a week or so decided to pursue the matter. With regards to the F.A investigation, they had their own investigation and Ferdinand has made his own statement, of which we don't know the contents, but that he feels 'very strongly about'.

Terry has, I believe, admitted using the words black C*** but has claimed he said that because he was accused of saying it and said back to Ferdinand 'I would never call you a black c***).

Chelsea fans them decided to join the level their captain 'fantastic' stooped to and proceeded to sing 'ferdinand, we know what you are' or words to that affect after Champions League match.

Calling someone a c*** is offensive generally (some friends may of course not mind calling each other that).
Calling someone a black c*** is racist because you are adding black to add to the insult implying that being black is a negative, which is racist.

It's not the world gone PC mad, it's people having a total lack of respect and decency.

 

[DemiLion]

Nope that example isn't racist but putting the 2 words together changes the whole meaning. The word "black" becomes an adjective, therefore it becomes racist.

Blast. I was going to type exactly that, then decided that it was too pedantic!

 

[joescrivens]

Nope that example isn't racist but putting the 2 words together changes the whole meaning. The word "black" becomes an adjective, therefore it becomes racist.

Well, I can see why you think that.

I personally disagree. I think in the wider context of the actual conversation the person in that example is saying the word black to indicate the person they are referring to and then insulting them with the word nob. The word black isnt part of the insult. And to me that's the key, it's all about the context and situation. There is no black and white for want of a better term

 

[Marcel]

To throw another angle on the discussion.

Ignore whether it fits under the racist header or not.

Is calling someone a Black C*** on the football pitch in the heat of the moment (when it's likely to be forgotten about by the other person in five minutes), enough to warrant an investigation and / or arrest?

Or.....OK calling someone a Black c*** isn't nice, but why is it worse than calling someone a fat c***? Ignore the legal aspects for a moment.

 

[DemiLion]

To throw another angle on the discussion.

Ignore whether it fits under the racist header or not.

Is calling someone a Black C*** on the football pitch in the heat of the moment (when it's likely to be forgotten about by the other person in five minutes), enough to warrant an investigation and / or arrest?

Or.....OK calling someone a Black c*** isn't nice, but why is it worse than calling someone a fat c***? Ignore the legal aspects for a moment.

I take your point completely, and in many ways it's similar to Rugby and kissball players being charged with assault for punch ups on the pitch (more so in the case of RU where it used to be a regular occurrence).

The simple fact is that, in today's world, it isn't acceptable behaviour anymore, which in some ways is a bit of a shame because on pitch scraps could be very entertaining!

Racist/ethnic/religious insults/slurs/whatever are a kickback to when that behaviour was generally accepted as the norm (especially in places like NI), but even though it was common practice, it doesn't mean that it was right.

Perhaps we do have to be a tad overly PC in some areas to stamp out bigotry (and I generally hate PC'ness), but it's about time that it was gone; and when I say that I mean from every spectrum, not just WASPs lagging off at other groups.

 

[akr]

Is calling someone a Black C*** on the football pitch in the heat of the moment (when it's likely to be forgotten about by the other person in five minutes), enough to warrant an investigation and / or arrest?

It won't be forgotten in 5 minutes though. It warrants punishment - so investigation yes if there is a doubt.

Or.....OK calling someone a Black c*** isn't nice, but why is it worse than calling someone a fat c***? Ignore the legal aspects for a moment.

In some ways I agree, same with calling people ginger this, jewish, french, etc. It's currently not PC to use some terms, but if Terry had called a ginger player a ginger c*** there would have been none of this. However they are all wrong.

In 20 years time it will probably be (correctly) un-pc to refer to people as 'gypos' in a derogatory manner, which most people will currently laugh at, much in the same way it was acceptable to be racist 40/50 years ago but is no longer.

 

[Marc]

Well, I can see why you think that.

I personally disagree. I think in the wider context of the actual conversation the person in that example is saying the word black to indicate the person they are referring to and then insulting them with the word nob. The word black isnt part of the insult. And to me that's the key, it's all about the context and situation. There is no black and white for want of a better term

Seriously Joe? You can't separate the words like that and say they are 2 different things. The only reason you would need to point out they are black is if they are not involved in the conversation and you need to identify them and even then, most people wouldn't feel the need unless there is no other way to make it known and even then, they wouldn't wouldn't use the 2 words together in that way.

"he's a c***"

"who?"

"the guy over there"

"which one?"

"the black guy"

As I said, by putting the 2 words together, you are using the word "black" as an adjective. Disagree all you want but that is how the English language works.

 

[joescrivens]

As I said, by putting the 2 words together, you are using the word "black" as an adjective. Disagree all you want but that is how the English language works.

You're simplifying things because of a definition of a word type and I am trying to understand the context in which something is said. Each to their own

 

[Splog]

Racism can only be caused through prejudice and I can't see how any words used in frustration should be taken seriously. Every day people say things they don't mean to be taken literally. I've heard parents threaten to kill their kids for misbehavior should I report them to the police?

 

[malo50]

To throw another angle on the discussion.

Ignore whether it fits under the racist header or not.

Is calling someone a Black C*** on the football pitch in the heat of the moment (when it's likely to be forgotten about by the other person in five minutes), enough to warrant an investigation and / or arrest?

Or.....OK calling someone a Black c*** isn't nice, but why is it worse than calling someone a fat c***? Ignore the legal aspects for a moment.

I'm not sure that there is a massive difference, however I think that both terms are very offensive. The reason this case is so important is because of the work the FA is doing to stamp out racism in football. If, and I know it's a big if, Terry did say what's alleged, they have to investigate.

@Joescrivens, come into my local and pick a descriptor such as fat, ginger, bald, speccy etc. append the c word and then express that to the person concerned and you'll be going home with a blue flashing light for company.

 

[Marc]

You're simplifying things because of a definition of a word type and I am trying to understand the context in which something is said. Each to their own

When we construct sentences, these things are what gives them meaning. It's not OVER simplifying because it's that simple. Trying to muddy the waters by separating them and trying to give them a different meaning doesn't change that.

And it's not a case of each to their own. Racism needs to be fully stamped out but it never will be as long as these sorts of comments are seen as acceptable.

Racism can only be caused through prejudice and I can't see how any words used in frustration should be taken seriously. Every day people say things they don't mean to be taken literally. I've heard parents threaten to kill their kids for misbehavior should I report them to the police?

Steve, you're way of the mark. The words imply that the recipient is a c*** and the colour of his skin is related which is racist, unacceptable whatever the situation, frustration isn't an excuse.

As for your last example, doesn't bare any resemblance to the topic in hand.

 

[joescrivens]

@Joescrivens, come into my local and pick a descriptor such as fat, ginger, bald, speccy etc. append the c word and then express that to the person concerned and you'll be going home with a blue flashing light for company.

what's that? If someone calls another person a fat c**t in the park after some kind of altercation I guess, and thats the limit of the abuse, no violence, nothing more than that one term and the person would be calling the police?

What a waste of police time. :thumbsdown:

 

[Lynton]

well, i've skipped over the last 2 pages.

At lunch today, I shared this thread with my Zimbabwean colleague Alex who is about as Black as you can get..... he found it hilarious........

As in "are you being serious here"

 

[joescrivens]

When we construct sentences, these things are what gives them meaning. It's not OVER simplifying because it's that simple. Trying to muddy the waters by separating them and trying to give them a different meaning doesn't change that.

Well, I respectfully disagree

 

[malo50]

what's that? If someone calls another person a fat c**t in the park after some kind of altercation I guess, and thats the limit of the abuse, no violence, nothing more than that one term and the person would be calling the police?

What a waste of police time. :thumbsdown:

The case we're talking about wasn't an altercation in a park. I'm not sure What you mean with 'what's that'

 

[joescrivens]

The case we're talking about wasn't an altercation in a park. I'm not sure What you mean with 'what's that'

What's that means me clarifying what you mean.

I'm referring to your example about me coming to your park and saying that. That's what you told me would happen.

Heres what you said

@Joescrivens, come into my local and pick a descriptor such as fat, ginger, bald, speccy etc. append the c word and then express that to the person concerned and you'll be going home with a blue flashing light for company.

 

[malo50]

You would be slapped and end up in an ambulance.

 

[Splog]

Steve, you're way of the mark. The words imply that the recipient is a c*** and the colour of his skin is related which is racist, unacceptable whatever the situation, frustration isn't an excuse.

As for your last example, doesn't bare any resemblance to the topic in hand.

Not really, the guy is black and he was opined to be a ****! Where is the evidence that his race is the issue.

The guy was differentiated by his skin colour as the most obvious way of refering to him. In no way was the fact he is black used to make statement about his race!

 

[akr]

I'm genuinely amazed people can't see it was a racist comment.

Even Terry recognises it was, by the fact he said he would never say such a thing.

 

[Jez2011]

Round and round we go

 

[Marc]

Not really, the guy is black and he was opined to be a ****! Where is the evidence that his race is the issue.

The guy was differentiated by his skin colour as the most obvious way of refering to him. In no way was the fact he is black used to make statement about his race!

I already answered in my reply to Joe. There is a world of difference between someone being black & a c*** and being a black c***. If you can't see the difference then I don't know what else I can say. :shrug: