the john terry racism stuff

[Marc]

The only reason you arent on my ignore list is because you're a moderator and i'm therefore unavble to put you on ignore, so dont delude yourself in thinking that i give a flying one about credibility in your eyes (especially as you seem to be doing the same thing you are accusing me of, ie repeating the same thing over and over)

however to answer the point, my position is that its about context - if you say 'f off back to the jungle you black c--t' then thats clearly racist, but if you said to black mate 'buy me a beer you black c--t' it might not be, because it would in the latter context be no different to saying fat, tall, skinny, rich or whatever

I have a number of freinds of different races and we tend to trade barbs and insults like no tommorow , because in an inverted way this demonstrates that we dont care about them.

In the case at hand we dont know what the context was, or even if terry used the offending words at all , and without that information the whole thing is a storm in a teacup whipped up by media hysteria

Well I'll ignore the childish bit at the beginning of the post (although why you want to ignore someone because they disagree with you is beyond me but if that's how you prefer to win arguments then crack on ) but I will say that I keep repeating things because you won't answer them, I've answered the things you keep repeating.

As for the second part, putting c*** with the word black does make it racist but, if you don't believe me, try it out for yourself, and I don't mean one of your friends.

But I'll end by saying this. If a black person says that calling them a black c*** is racist, then it's racist (whether or not JT actually said it is irrelevant in this context). Speaking as someone who suffered racial abuse growing up, that is all that matters.

 

[DemiLion]

The only reason you arent on my ignore list is because you're a moderator and i'm therefore unavble to put you on ignore, so dont delude yourself in thinking that i give a flying one about credibility in your eyes (especially as you seem to be doing the same thing you are accusing me of, ie repeating the same thing over and over)

however to answer the point, my position is that its about context - if you say 'f off back to the jungle you black c--t' then thats clearly racist, but if you said to black mate 'buy me a beer you black c--t' it might not be, because it would in the latter context be no different to saying fat, tall, skinny, rich or whatever

I have a number of freinds of different races and we tend to trade barbs and insults like no tommorow , because in an inverted way this demonstrates that we dont care about them.

In the case at hand we dont know what the context was, or even if terry used the offending words at all , and without that information the whole thing is a storm in a teacup whipped up by media hysteria

You still don't get it, do you?

It doesn't matter whether the recipient of your barb finds your comments offensive or not; if any other person within hearing deems what you have said to be racist, sectarian or one of the other of life's great unpleasantries, then the words are inherantly that.

You can argue semantics all you like, but in my experience I've tended to find that those who claim that using a racial, ethnic or religious descriptor is acceptable are usually complete and utter bigots.

As for the references to the media dragging this into the field of racism, get your bloody facts sorted out; the claim was made by a third party.

 

[DemiLion]

pointless thread of the year, and as usual we get people being rude and arguing. How about passing this one by and doing something more exciting instead

Sorry - was typing as you posted!

 

[Dale_tem]

Racism has nothing to do with how you intended it to be, but how it is received. Either by the intended recipient or someone overhearing.

People play the race card a lot. BUT you need to think about who may hear your comments. Private joke T home is different to on a football pitch being televised.

 

[tiler65]

What a waste of 20 minutes reading. I have not learnt one thing in this thread.

 

[CT]

It's getting a bit silly now.

A few years ago working within the police service with people of different colour and race, it was commonplace to trade insults like black *****, rag head *****er and white honky mofo - you name it and it was pretty much in play. All done as some said earlier to show that we didn't give a flying ferret about these things - much the same way as black people use 'n*gger' among themselves.

Things have changed though, and regardless of what your remark intended, or whether the recipient was in the least offended, you'd be very ill-advised to do that in todays police service if the remark was overheard and reported by someone else.

There's the way it ought to be between mates and there's the way it actually is - just don't do it!

 

[AndyB1976]

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/rrpbcrbook.html

Racial group – this means any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin. This could include Gypsies and Travellers, refugees, or asylum seekers or others from less visible minorities. There has been a legal ruling that Jews and Sikhs are included in the definition of racial group.

But I'll end by saying this. If a black person says that calling them a black c*** is racist, then it's racist (whether or not JT actually said it is irrelevant in this context). Speaking as someone who suffered racial abuse growing up, that is all that matters.

The post I made early from The Crown Prosecution Service defines 'colour' as racial group so I can't see a valid argument/justification beyond that point. :shrug:

 

[Splog]

Racism has nothing to do with how you intended it to be, but how it is received. Either by the intended recipient or someone overhearing.

People play the race card a lot. BUT you need to think about who may hear your comments. Private joke T home is different to on a football pitch being televised.

I thought racism was about discrimination and attitude towards others Not sure how it works when someone is offended on the behalf of someone else.... It's a crazy world these days :shrug:

 

[Marc]

The post I made early from The Crown Prosecution Service defines 'colour' as racial group so I can't see a valid argument/justification beyond that point. :shrug:

Sorry Andy, not sure what you're getting at there.

 

[cambsno]

You still don't get it, do you?

It doesn't matter whether the recipient of your barb finds your comments offensive or not; if any other person within hearing deems what you have said to be racist, sectarian or one of the other of life's great unpleasantries, then the words are inherantly that.

You can argue semantics all you like, but in my experience I've tended to find that those who claim that using a racial, ethnic or religious descriptor is acceptable are usually complete and utter bigots.

As for the references to the media dragging this into the field of racism, get your bloody facts sorted out; the claim was made by a third party.

Apart from JT and Anton, no-one would have heard the insults.

 

[AndyB1976]

Sorry Andy, not sure what you're getting at there.

Sorry I am agreeing with what you said.

I recall some time in the past a debate (not on TP) about colour being or not being a racist term.

I was told in Law that 'colour' is a racist term and was just posting above quote from The CPS.

My point was that opinions suggesting colour is not a racist term in that context are incorrect.

 

[Davie]

I still don't see the confusion here, it really is very simple, to use race, colour, creed in any kind of insult is racist end off and only the really stupid would use that kind of language in a televised broadcast viewed by millions of people.

 

[DemiLion]

Apart from JT and Anton, no-one would have heard the insults.

How do you know that?

 

[Marc]

Sorry I am agreeing with what you said.

I recall some time in the past a debate (not on TP) about colour being or not being a racist term.

I was told in Law that 'colour' is a racist term and was just posting above quote from The CPS.

My point was that opinions suggesting colour is not a racist term in that context is incorrect.

Ah right, sorry.

 

[Splog]

What a waste of 20 minutes reading. I have not learnt one thing in this thread.

Nor have you contributed anything to it

 

[cambsno]

Have you ever been to a football stadium - I doubt anyone would hear anything in the stands at Cambridge Utd (ave att 2500) let alone QPR with 20k+ (at a guess).

 

[joescrivens]

I still don't see the confusion here, it really is very simple, to use race, colour, creed in any kind of insult is racist end off and only the really stupid would use that kind of language in a televised broadcast viewed by millions of people.

I don't think it's that simple.

Consider this interaction.

In a football stadium a player screws up a pass. A fan says:

" he's a *****ing nob" says person 1
"who" says person 2

Person 1 now picks a defining feature of the guy he's describing, he could say fat, black, white, bald, Long haired, number 17. Whatever. He just picks a defining feature

He lands on black

"that black nob"

By your definition he is being racist whereas I jus think he has insulted someone and used his color as the defining feature.

 

[Davie]

Joe, if there were only one black player on the field I'd maybe slightly see your argument but when was the last time you watched a prem football match?

 

[Splog]

Joe, if there were only one black player on the field I'd maybe slightly see your argument but when was the last time you watched a prem football match?

Fair enough, but if there was more than one black player involved then the response may have been the fat ******* or the bald ****? etc. Colour would no longer be a defining feature :shrug:

It's just how it is for normal people

 

[norters]

I've had to read the whole thread twice but are there people here who actually think that calling someone a 'black c...' is not racist? Seriously? I find that baffling and a bit disheartening. Granted, I am what a lot of people on this board would call an 'overly sensitive leftist' (or whatever they are calling us these days, I can't keep up) but you don't have to be the kind of person who cried at the end of Lost in Translation to think that 'black c...' is a racist term, surely?

As for the Suarez allegation...one of the most watched club football matches in the world in front of millions of people and hundreds of cameras and the boy is supposed to have used a racial slur TEN times? Nope, not buying that one Patrice. You have form for this remember.

 

[tiler65]

I've had to read the whole thread twice but are there people here who actually think that calling someone a 'black c...' is not racist? Seriously? I find that baffling and a bit disheartening. Granted, I am what a lot of people on this board would call an 'overly sensitive leftist' (or whatever they are calling us these days, I can't keep up) but you don't have to be the kind of person who cried at the end of Lost in Translation to think that 'black c...' is a racist term, surely?

As for the Suarez allegation...one of the most watched club football matches in the world in front of millions of people and hundreds of cameras and the boy is supposed to have used a racial slur TEN times? Nope, not buying that one Patrice. You have form for this remember.

Cocks















How ironic...post 101, will this post 101 stay or will it be deleted

 

[Davie]

Steve I'm just going over the same thing here, if you cant see how calling a guy a black c**t isn't racist then I'm just going to give up, mainly because I'm tired and cant be arsed arguing and I'm off to bed

Nick, nice to see someone in agreement

Tom in reply to your post...fannies

 

[On the Huh]

I thought racism was about discrimination and attitude towards others Not sure how it works when someone is offended on the behalf of someone else.... It's a crazy world these days :shrug:

EQUALITY! would be missing from Terry's verbel abuse, if he thought the guy was a **** his colour of skin shouldn't come into it. Wouldnt call his brother a White **** would he??
Fat, ginger, bald etc is totally a seperate form of insult than race/creed/colour etc.

 

[joescrivens]

Steve I'm just going over the same thing here, if you cant see how calling a guy a black c**t isn't racist then I'm just going to give up, mainly because I'm tired and cant be arsed arguing and I'm off to bed

This attitude is what baffles me on both sides of the argument. How come you are automatically right and people of a different opinion somehow can't see something?

Aren't both sides merely a matter of opinion?

 

[joescrivens]

Joe, if there were only one black player on the field I'd maybe slightly see your argument but when was the last time you watched a prem football match?

Who said it had to be a prem football match in my example? There aren't many black players who play for leek town.

My point is that you are saying that using the persons race in an insult is always a racist comment no matter the situation, and I think it's a lot more grey than that.

 

[Marc]

Who said it had to be a prem football match in my example? There aren't many black players who play for leek town.

My point is that you are saying that using the persons race in an insult is always a racist comment no matter the situation, and I think it's a lot more grey than that.

No Joe, it isn't a grey area. There can be no possible use of someone's race in an insult other than to use it as an insult. As I've already asked, why would you need to mention their race?

 

[norters]

No Joe, it isn't a grey area. There can be no possible use of someone's race in an insult other than to use it as an insult. As I've already asked, why would you need to mention their race?

Exactly.

If you call somebody a 'black c...' it is racist. Surely there can be no argument there?

Or am I missing something?

 

[joescrivens]

No Joe, it isn't a grey area. There can be no possible use of someone's race in an insult other than to use it as an insult. As I've already asked, why would you need to mention their race?

and as I already answered

I don't think it's that simple.

Consider this interaction.

In a football stadium a player screws up a pass. A fan says:

" he's a *****ing nob" says person 1
"who" says person 2

Person 1 now picks a defining feature of the guy he's describing, he could say fat, black, white, bald, Long haired, number 17. Whatever. He just picks a defining feature

He lands on black

"that black nob"

By your definition he is being racist whereas I jus think he has insulted someone and used his color as the defining feature.

 

[joescrivens]

Exactly.

If you call somebody a 'black c...' it is racist. Surely there can be no argument there?

Or am I missing something?

yes, the thing you are missing is that you and others think it is racist but it isn't a fact. It's your opinion.

Those people who don't think it is racist have a different opinion.

 

[norters]

yes, the thing you are missing is that you and others think it is racist but it isn't a fact. It's your opinion.

Those people who don't think it is racist have a different opinion.

This could go on forever. I guess the people who believe that racism of any sort is 'a bit off' will always think that it is racist (it is) and the people that believe that all this racism stuff is just 'pc gone mad' will happily walk up to someone in the street and say proudly into their face 'alright you black c...'.

 

[Byker28i]

Apart from JT and Anton, no-one would have heard the insults.

Actually, you'll be surprised how much you can hear at a premiership match if you're down the front, especially if it all kicks off by the touchline. However in this case, I suspect from the position of the players on the field that the member of the public who complained may have been a little eager.

What will be interesting is the Sky footage and recordings. Their are recording football in full 5.1 surround sound with additional spot mics deliberately to get the sound of the ball being kicked, the players sounds etc.

There's an interesting overview from Calrec here - www.calrec.com/uk/documentslibrary/champions league.pdf

Includes diagrams of layouts etc.

 

[joescrivens]

This could go on forever. I guess the people who believe that racism of any sort is 'a bit off' will always think that it is racist (it is) and the people that believe that all this racism stuff is just 'pc gone mad' will happily walk up to someone in the street and say proudly into their face 'alright you black c...'.

not really.

Each incident should be judged by its own situation. Some people here believe it is blanket, no matter what circumstance under any conditions something is racist.

Whereas others feel that it depends on the situation.

 

[cambsno]

Exactly.

If you call somebody a 'black c...' it is racist. Surely there can be no argument there?

Or am I missing something?

I am sure that if he had said you Aussie ****, you Scottish **** or you French **** then nothing would have been said about this but this is racist too! You cant have it both ways, you either come down on ALL racist comments or only those that are properly hate filled.

 

[leftcurl]

isn't the fact that the police have been questioning him about the incident proof enough that it is racist?

Regardless of what he said, how he said it or who he said it to.. John Terry is a nasty piece of work. On and off the pitch. It came to the fore when he gobbed in Carlos Tevez' hair in the CL Final a few years back.

My choice of adjective is a sly c*nt.

 

[joescrivens]

isn't the fact that the police have been questioning him about the incident proof enough that it is racist?

when a police investigation starts to investigate a possible murder does it automatically mean there was a murder then?

 

[leftcurl]

when a police investigation starts to investigate a possible murder does it automatically mean there was a murder then?

no.. but there'd have to be a dead body wouldn't there?

 

[joescrivens]

no.. but there'd have to be a dead body wouldn't there?

aren't there others ways that people can die other than murder?

Someone finds a body at the bottom of a cliff and rings the police

"I think there's been a murder!!!!!"

murder investigation starts. Doesn't mean it was murder - the investigation may show that as the outcome but it may show that he fell. An investigation doesn't mean the act being investigated has actually happened.

A viewer phones the police and says that Joh Terry has been racist and called someone a "black c**t" investigation starts, if it is proved he did say that then next they'll be a trial to see what were the circumstances of the context, who said what etc and then a judge or jury will decide if the act was racist.

even at that point it's still interpretation by the person making the call if they felt it was racist or not. The opinion of the judge or jury can sway it one way or another

 

[Catdaddy]

aren't there others ways that people can die other than murder?

But isn't there only one interpretation of 'black c**t' when it's said in anger? I know that if some black guy came up to me in an aggressive way and called me a 'white c**t', I'd not only feel threatened, but I'd also feel that it was (in part, at least) racially motivated. Doesn't that count as racism?

 

[joescrivens]

But isn't there only one interpretation of 'black c**t' when it's said in anger? I know that if some black guy came up to me in an aggressive way and called me a 'white c**t', I'd not only feel threatened, but I'd also feel that it was (in part, at least) racially motivated. Doesn't that count as racism?

i don't think there is only one interpretation. As said above it depends on the situation. You are saying that no matter how or when the term "black c**t" is used it is racism if the person saying it is angry.

I think it depends on each individual situation. With the john terry thing I'm not sure what I think as I don't know exactly what the circumstances are, it could very well be racist.

But I don't accept that the term itself is automatically a racist one - because I believe it depends on the situation.

 

[Catdaddy]

i don't think there is only one interpretation. As said above it depends on the situation. You are saying that no matter how or when the term "black c**t" is used it is racism if the person saying it is angry.

I think it depends on each individual situation. With the john terry thing I'm not sure what I think as I don't know exactly what the circumstances are, it could very well be racist.

But I don't accept that the term itself is automatically a racist one - because I believe it depends on the situation.

The only other way I can think of is if it's being said in a jovial mates down the pub sort of way but even then it's taking the p*ss out of the whole racism thing and more than likely said for shock value. But, as said by someone else earlier, if somebody else overhears and takes offense, then it becomes racist...