the john terry racism stuff

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Just catching up on this and what exactly he was has been alleged to have said. trying carefully to type this without actually writing any of the very offensive words but yet communicate my question.

So at first I assumed he must have called him an "n"

but now I see the actual term he's used is "black c**t". Terry claims he was responding saying he hadn't said that. Who knows, i wouldn't put it past him.

My question is really about whether "black c**t" is a racial slur or whether it's just an insult. I mean if he just called him a c**t it wouldn't be racist but because he prefixed it with the color of the persons skin does that make it a racist comment?

I suppose because he's singling out the fact he is black before calling him the insult makes it more racist right?
 
Yeah it is an odd one. As a description I guess it isn't racist. But the fact he, allegedly, used it as part of the insult would suggest he is classes being black as a bad thing and that would make it racist? Honestly don't know.
 
I was chatting to my cousin about this as he's an avid Chelsea fan (never mind hey :lol: )

IMO this was not a racist remark.

How many other adjective could be used in the place of black? Fat, bald, four-eye, skinny...... the list is pretty much endless.

The guy is black, that's a fact therefore it was merely an adjective used to describe his appearence.

If a black guy called me a white **** I would take it as an insult but not a racist one.

I think there's WAY too much sensitivity around the subject of racism but it needs to be put into context. Racism is wrong but it's the intent of the comment that's important.

One of my ex-wife's best friends was of Pakistani origin, she was affectionately known as the "whacky Paki", she even refered to herself using the term. However if I said "Why don't you f*** off home you whacky Paki" then IMO that is a racist comment.

The key here is context ;)
 
it is a difficult one. Doesnt seem to be any consistency. Don't get me wrong, abusing someone because of their race is completely wrong but there are times people need to take a step back.

In schools you cant call it a "blackboard" but it's okay to have the MOBO Awards (music of black origin).

Also to the above poster, she is happy being called the whacky paki, but if someone else heard it and deemed it racist then it is an offence. Even if the person it was directed at wasnt.

Mad :)
 
Agree with Russ. There is a clothing label I think called Paki. Funnily enough I used to work with an Indian who would often say "f*****g paki" as though it was a normal expression (bit like we may slag off French or Germans). Yes, I know he is Indian and not Pakistani but the word is tended to be used based on someones colour not origin.

Many, many jokes are racist/sexist or offensive in some way - think of some of the classics like Fawlty Towers and Blackadder. Little Britain also manages to offend everyone! So its not acceptable to call someone a black xyz, but you can call them ginger/four eyed/fat xyz??? Makes no sense to me as all are physical descriptions.
 
What I find more depressing is that the furore appears to be purely over whether John Terry said "black" or "blind". The fact that he used the 'c' word isn't relevant at all it would appear.

Just another reason why these overpaid spoilt specimens are a disgrace to their profession and the position of role models to the youth of today.
 
If you are on the receiving end of the comment and you find it offensive, it's offensive. Sounds like the most common sense interpretation to take and something to bear in mind if you feel the need to give an insult.

Sammy, where on earth did you hear that about the blackboard and do you genuinely think it's true? If most schools don't call them a blackboard it's because they've been using interactive whiteboards for the past five years or so.
 
I've often been called a c*** and don't really get offended by it. my normal reply is "well, you are what you eat; p***k!"
 
A couple of years ago a supplier had 4 season tickets to chelsea so we used to get to go a few times, mostly to watch the other teams we supported.

What got me was the racist abuse some chelsea fans were giving their own players when they felt they weren't performing.
 
The blackboard thing was prevalent during the eighties in certain local and educational authorities, as well as referring to 'black coffee' as 'coffee without milk'.

If Terry used those words and a spectator took offence and complained, then it's classed as racist, full stop. You don't have to be the recipient of the insult in order to be offended according to the law.
 
Jimmy_Lemon said:
Yeah it is an odd one. As a description I guess it isn't racist. But the fact he, allegedly, used it as part of the insult would suggest he is classes being black as a bad thing and that would make it racist? Honestly don't know.
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From what I understand it's all down to the context in which the word is used (and by whom)- if "black" or "paki" is used as part of a slur or insult then (imho) it's a racist comment. If, on the other hand it was merely descriptive "go and speak to the black guy round the corner", then (assuming "black" as opposed to "coloured", or whatever the pc word is this week, is still an acceptable term these days) I'd imagine that wouldn't be classed as racist, but as you say :shrug:
 
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Simmotino said:
What I find more depressing is that the furore appears to be purely over whether John Terry said "black" or "blind". The fact that he used the 'c' word isn't relevant at all it would appear.

Just another reason why these overpaid spoilt specimens are a disgrace to their profession and the position of role models to the youth of today.
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I know that Arsenal players (and I no doubt those at other clubs) do a lot for local charities, and for perfect role models just look at Becks, he has talent but has stayed playing for so long becuase he has a great attitude and work ethic.

Footballers are no different to shop workers, office workers, bank staff, teachers, vicars, solicitors, doctors... some will beat wives, drink too much, gamble, take drugs, be generally unpleasant etc...
 
Alastair said:
If you are on the receiving end of the comment and you find it offensive, it's offensive. [snip]
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I'm having difficulty with your definition. Just because someone is offended by an action doesn't, in my opinion, make is offensive.

I would say that, "If you are on the receiving end of the comment and you find it offensive, it's offensive to you".

If we take your definition, everything would be offensive because, I suspect, everything and anything would be offensive to someone. Food, art, language, people, etc, etc, etc.

Regards.
 
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I played 5aside for 10 years in a small local league. Even at that level (some were sunday league players, others a bit older and slower in their 40s) you do get carried away and competitive and you may say or do things that you wouldnt do off the pitch. In my case call other players a fat cword or similar, get called much the same, throw an odd elbow or dive in 2 footed... Ok, never called someone a black xyz, and although a couple of players carried on acting like an idoit, most were fine at final whistle. At the very top where Terry is, losing a game like that and being such a competitive, strong willed player and leader of course things will happen in the heat of the moment. Some players do manage to keep a lid on it, others like Hadj Doiuf struggle more, but should we be surprised?
 
posiview said:
Just because someone is offended by an action doesn't, in my opinion, make is offensive.
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Yes it does, similarly with something like a Breach of the Peace, where if another person considers themselves to have been placed in a state of "fear and alarm" by one's actions then a crime has been committed, whether you personally think it has or not.
 
Imo its not racist - because calling someone black isnt a term of racist abuse - for it to be racist he'd have had to use a racial ephiphet like calling him a 'n word c--t' or implied that he was a c-- because he was black , or made other overtly racist comment like 'you should f off back to the jungle you black c--t'

what it was however was highly unproffesional - If I refered to anyone in my work place in those terms regardless of the colour of their skin , i'd be disciplined and probably fired - so john terry should definitely be censured for it regardless of whether it was racist abuse or just abuse as neither is acceptable conduct
 
Flash In The Pan said:
Yes it does, similarly with something like a Breach of the Peace, where if another person considers themselves to have been placed in a state of "fear and alarm" by one's actions then a crime has been committed, whether you personally think it has or not.
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Nah - it would have to be reasonable

otherwise I could say that your post has left me in a state of fear and alarm so by you're logic your guilty - the fuzz will be round later :lol:
 
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Yes, it's racist. he (allegedly) combined the 2 words which associates them and that's what makes it racist, there's no ther reason for using the word black here. As for skinny/fat ****, well skiny/fat people aren't a race so they can't be racist but by combining the words, they are associating one with the other and excacerbating the insult.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
Yes it does, similarly with something like a Breach of the Peace, where if another person considers themselves to have been placed in a state of "fear and alarm" by one's actions then a crime has been committed, whether you personally think it has or not.
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Being called a c*nt hardy places you in fear or alarm.

Just because someone finds a particular term offensive doesn't make it so. Many people object to the term 'Blind' nowadays and will quite happily tell you it should be 'Unsighted' - PC gone mad.

Back to the Terry thing, wasn't the remark sexist anyway - why couldn't he call him a pr**k or a bell end? :D
 
CT said:
Many people object to the term 'Blind' nowadays and will quite happily tell you it should be 'Unsighted' - PC gone mad.
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i think the appropriate wording is 'someone whos experiencing a degree of visual impairment' :lol:

so what terry should have said would be " I say old boy, you must be suffering from a degree of visual impairment as great as that experienced by the femail sexual organ "
 
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the wealth and greed are obscene... putting race aside, as far as i'm concerned the'yre all c***s.
 
CT said:
Being called a c*nt hardy places you in fear or alarm.
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According to Strathclyde Police if you swear in public that's a BoP. I'd also say if you called an 80-year old woman a c*nt that would place her in a state of fear or alarm....
 
Flash In The Pan said:
According to Strathclyde Police if you swear in public that's a BoP. I'd also say if you called an 80-year old woman a c*nt that would place her in a state of fear or alarm....
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Well they have different ideas about things your side of Hadrian's Wall Graham, even so - you have to be kidding - we routinely hear shocking and unnecessary language in films and on TV - even on chat shows it's become an accepted part of speech that would have had the programme off the air only a few years ago . Most people hated Mary Whitehouse, but Geezus she was so right!
 
Simmotino said:
What I find more depressing is that the furore appears to be purely over whether John Terry said "black" or "blind". The fact that he used the 'c' word isn't relevant at all it would appear.
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I'm also slightly saddened that it comes down to just one of the words. Footballers are paid a lot and put in an aspirational position. They should be expected to exhibit far better bahaviour in general than they do.

But the argument over one word doesn't really help him come across any better or as less of a lout, black or blind would both refer to protected characteristics (race, disability) and regardless of whether or not the recipient is black or blind it still falls under the Equality Act 2010 - although to apply perceptive discrimination to this example would in my opinion not be in the spirit with which the law was intended and shouldn't get very far.

Discrimination is rarely understood by those with no direct experience of it. But I suppose that at least public examples like this give a chance to discuss the issue.
 
It does cut two ways though - the racist thing applies to us all -irrespective of colour or creed - but all too often it's a a one way street. I've had plenty of dealings with black guys (and women) for that matter who had no qualms about referring to me as a 'White honky mother f****r' and similar terms of endearment. :D
 
cambsno said:
Footballers are no different to shop workers, office workers, bank staff, teachers, vicars, solicitors, doctors... some will beat wives, drink too much, gamble, take drugs, be generally unpleasant etc...
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Sorry, but Premier (and lower) League footballers are VERY different to these people in that they plant themselves very much in the public eye, and command obscene salaries to do so.
 
Why all the fuss about Terry... isnt Suarez up on much the same charge?
 
Alastair said:
But the argument over one word doesn't really help him come across any better or as less of a lout, black or blind would both refer to protected characteristics (race, disability) and regardless of whether or not the recipient is black or blind it still falls under the Equality Act 2010 - although to apply perceptive discrimination to this example would in my opinion not be in the spirit with which the law was intended and shouldn't get very far.
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i find this very over the top.

If he did say blind then it's an expression rather than actually calling him physically disabled in the sight area. It's a term to describe the shock of someone not being able to see what's right in front of them. Often people will say "Are you blind ref?" they don't actually think the ref is blind, they are saying "I can't believe what you didn't see right in front of your eyes"
 
If Terry said it then he was clearly wrong and deserves all he probably won't get anyway. :shrug:

With regard to the use of the word black - black people themselves actually prefer to be referred to as black - referring to them as 'coloured' tends to cause offence straight away - a typical example of attempted PC backfiring.
 
Racist or not he isn;t good enough at any level to represent Engalnd. Him and the rest of the squad will be heading home at the quarter final stage. Then a signicant number will have books ghost written then published, fooling the buyers of the books that it was somebody elses fault they didn't bring the trophy home
 
I used to stand on the terraces in the 70s... when i read all this about terry i just cant help but think back and compare... then think to myself..... for crying out loud.. apologise and move on... talk about mountains out of mole hills.
 
Simmotino said:
Sorry, but Premier (and lower) League footballers are VERY different to these people in that they plant themselves very much in the public eye, and command obscene salaries to do so.
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Disagree. Most, if not all players play for the love of it, especially when young. Of course, once they get a contract some are more concerned by the money, and some by the fame but generally they want to play. Do you think David Platt coaches cos he needs the money or because he likes it, same with people like Wenger, Fergie etc... Becks could retire but loves playing, same too with Giggs, and other older players. Most footballers do not plant themselves in the public eye either, much of the publicity is down to the press and the public lapping it up.

A few players do earn large sums, but no different to musicians, actors, and other sportsmen. I remember a keeper called Lionel perez, french keeper at Newcastle 10 years ago who because he was on the bench agreed to join lowly Cambridge Utd, seeing his salary drop from £9k to £3k. He did that as he just wanted to play football. At the time the next highest paid player was on probably £2k a week, which although sounds good, is not brilliant bearing in mind you could end your career tomorrow, at best have 15 years in the game - more likely 5-10, and at the end of that you have to carve out a new career.
 
CT said:
Well they have different ideas about things your side of Hadrian's Wall Graham, even so - you have to be kidding - we routinely hear shocking and unnecessary language in films and on TV - even on chat shows it's become an accepted part of speech that would have had the programme off the air only a few years ago . Most people hated Mary Whitehouse, but Geezus she was so right!
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Oh I agree, but if you even (politely) argue your point with a police officer in Glasgow (as the guy at Braehead discovered) you run the risk of being charged with a BoP.

Remember we have rather unfortunate history in Glasgow regarding this sort of thing, although it tends to be sectarian, rather than racial. I actually once saw a drunk staggering along the road singing The Sash and two rather large polis jumping out of a patrol car and dragging him away for it.

Of course that may have been down to the quality of his rendition...:lol:
 
KIPAX said:
I used to stand on the terraces in the 70s... when i read all this about terry i just cant help but think back and compare... then think to myself..... for crying out loud.. apologise and move on... talk about mountains out of mole hills.
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HEAR HEAR!!!!

IMO... Racist - No! Inappropriate comment for a professional footballer and more importantly a role model to make - Yes!!

As Kipax says, shake hands, say sorry and wait for the next scandal!!!

While we're on the whole topic of racism though.

How many white british people on here would consider being called a "Fcuking Brit" a racist comment?

On a number of occasions I've been called a fcuking\whinging\cheating POM by aussies (ooops..... is aussie considered racist too?) and not once have a felt racially abused but if you think about it, there are quite strong racial connotations with the term "POM" ;)
 
Surely the fact that a black person can use the N word, but a white person cant, is racist in itself?
 
KIPAX said:
It's not the word.. it's how its used.
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If memory serves me correctly it's to do with the use of the word during the time a lot of black people were enslaved across the America and other "civilised" countries?
 
cambsno said:
At the time the next highest paid player was on probably £2k a week, which although sounds good, is not brilliant bearing in mind you could end your career tomorrow, at best have 15 years in the game - more likely 5-10, and at the end of that you have to carve out a new career.
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2 grand a week for 15 years is £1.5 mil over your lifetime

the minimum wage of 12 grand a year over 45 years (age 20 to 65) works out at £540,000. A more moderate average wage of £24,000 which is more than liveable gives you less than 1 mill in your lifetime.

I earn around 40K which if i had earned from 20 years old would get me 1.8 mill till i was 65

personally i'd take the 15 years of work and retire at aged 35 thanks and lose the extra £300,000!
 
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