The Hidden costs of BREXIT

So relations with the EU have improved and it isn't needed now. It's a relative win that shows being prepared costs money.
 
Hopefully they'll find a better use for it sometime, though it's rather in the middle of nowhere really.
 
So relations with the EU have improved and it isn't needed now. It's a relative win that shows being prepared costs money.

well not so much a win, simply a partial return to rules we had under EU membership on some products that require less checks that cost the tax payer £51 million.
"the majority of the imports might not need to be checked." , notice the MIGHT.
 
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Holyhead is not alone in money chucked down the drain due to Brexit



 
Same here in Belfast I think, and cairnryan in Scotland. Unplanned hard Brexit to blame. Water under the bridge though, we are now dealing with the fallout.
 
Same here in Belfast I think, and cairnryan in Scotland. Unplanned hard Brexit to blame. Water under the bridge though, we are now dealing with the fallout.

we will be dealing with the fallout foe ever mate, UK government's Office of Budget Responsibility calculated that Brexit would cost 4% of GDP per annum over the long term. a 4% GDP hit could translate into a £32 billion cost per annum to the UK taxpayer.
 
we will be dealing with the fallout foe ever mate, UK government's Office of Budget Responsibility calculated that Brexit would cost 4% of GDP per annum over the long term. a 4% GDP hit could translate into a £32 billion cost per annum to the UK taxpayer.
...Yet..look where ReformUK is in the polls. There's not much to be hopeful about,really.
 
...Yet..look where ReformUK is in the polls. There's not much to be hopeful about,really.

oh the UK is a goner mate for sure, to be honest it can go the way of the dogs for me, i am retired so mainstream politics are of no interest to me, roads, schools, immigration etc.
Farage will probably be the next PM and that will just be like Italy under Berlisconi
 
oh the UK is a goner mate for sure, to be honest it can go the way of the dogs for me, i am retired so mainstream politics are of no interest to me, roads, schools, immigration etc.
Farage will probably be the next PM and that will just be like Italy under Berlisconi
I'm sure that Farage would like the power, but power comes with responsibility and hard work, and everyone would also be looking at his financial interests, so I don't see that happening - or maybe I'm just hoping that it doesn't.
 
I'm sure that Farage would like the power, but power comes with responsibility and hard work, and everyone would also be looking at his financial interests, so I don't see that happening - or maybe I'm just hoping that it doesn't.
I surmise that Reform will gain more traction but as for him ever(?) being PM.......very doubtful!

Why, well so far we have yet to see how they get on with the council/local authorities they have overall control of?

It one thing to espouse the changes they seek another to actually show evidence of achieving them!

IMO as it stands now should Reform ever get into government, it will be a (populist) car crash!
 
When I expressed my views on the referendum result I was regarded as an ignorant idiot by many on here, I'm as ignorant and stupid as ever, but a lot of people have woken up and smelled the coffee and it's becoming ever more difficult to find anyone who admits to voting for Brexit :)
 
I was telling my wife yesterday that if the polling in a couple of years time is still showing Reform as having a chance, I'll have to start moving some of our pension investments elsewhere (although I don't know where at present) to play safe. Their economic illiteracy would worry me greatly.
 
I'm sure that Farage would like the power, but power comes with responsibility and hard work, and everyone would also be looking at his financial interests, so I don't see that happening - or maybe I'm just hoping that it doesn't.

Not to quote just you btw

But I think they have a chance. Simply based on the illegal/non working immigrant/asylum seeker thing..... If Labour aren't doing anything about it then I think they'll get quite a few votes based solely on that. I know it isn't everything, but it is a subject a vast majority of people feel strongly about.

Which sort of puts it in a similar situation as Brexit.....
 
Exactly - a lot of "I don't like it" but no grand ideas to solve it, so believe what the RW media tell you to think. Reform don't actually have a solution, but just like Brexit, they can say lots of things are wrong, without having concrete deliverable solutions. Meanwhile, hundreds if not thousands of said illegals and legals are being removed every week but that doesn't get reported.
 
I could imagine our French house becoming a more important asset than we ever expected.
 
Exactly - a lot of "I don't like it" but no grand ideas to solve it, so believe what the RW media tell you to think. Reform don't actually have a solution, but just like Brexit, they can say lots of things are wrong, without having concrete deliverable solutions. Meanwhile, hundreds if not thousands of said illegals and legals are being removed every week but that doesn't get reported.

Unless there's new figures since, I believe only a small proportion of them were actually enforced removals. I believe it could also include those who have not entered illegally and their visa simply expired.

But the claim is misleading. The government's latest figures show that only 6,339 of these were "enforced returns" The majority were "voluntary returns" - and a significant number of these happen without the government's direct involvement or even knowledge."



Many ideas have been floated on here as possible solutions, but often I find the Government of the day can take years to cotton on to what the public seem to figure out long in advance. Personally, I don't believe that any of the current parties are genuinely interested in solving it due to how good a distraction it is for certain demographics who believe it is the only thing that detrimentally affects the UK.
 
When I expressed my views on the referendum result I was regarded as an ignorant idiot by many on here, I'm as ignorant and stupid as ever, but a lot of people have woken up and smelled the coffee and it's becoming ever more difficult to find anyone who admits to voting for Brexit :)

I did, as a protest vote, because I believed it needed serious reform. I openly talked about this in here. I didn't actually think it would go through though. More fool me I guess.
 
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...but just like Brexit, they can say lots of things are wrong, without having concrete deliverable solutions.
We need to come up with some way of getting truthfullness into political debate. Trump is showing us what happens when we allow untrammelled claims that are predictably proven false.
Meanwhile, hundreds if not thousands of said illegals and legals are being removed every week but that doesn't get reported.
The last figures I can find are rather depressing and appear to suggest that less than 5% of "small boat arrivees" are returned each year "due to the need to process asylum claims".
 
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Unless there's new figures since, I believe only a small proportion of them were actually enforced removals. I believe it could also include those who have not entered illegally and their visa simply expired.





Many ideas have been floated on here as possible solutions, but often I find the Government of the day can take years to cotton on to what the public seem to figure out long in advance. Personally, I don't believe that any of the current parties are genuinely interested in solving it due to how good a distraction it is for certain demographics who believe it is the only thing that detrimentally affects the UK.

We need to come up with some way of getting truthfullness into political debate. Trump is showing us what happens when we allow untrammelled claims that are predictably proven false.

The last figures I can find are rather depressing and appear to suggest that less than 5% of "small boat arrivees" are returned each year "due to the need to process asylum claims".

I think (again, personal opinion) that they want the illegal immigrants here. I don't think many Brits are going to willingly want this "Brit Card" digital ID thing that links everything together etc etc - supposedly to be followed by this central digital banking thingy...... So, fill the UK with illegals and then force the British into accepting the Brit Card ID as "it's the only way we can see who is who and who to deport"

Have an idea, create the problem, present the solution.....
 
I can only quote returns anecdotally, but I know that the company I work for that actually carries out removals for the HO, is taking at least hundreds every week out of the country. Can't really say more.
Regarding the small boat arrivals, it depends a lot on where people have originated. When it was mostly Albanians, the vast majority were on a plane going back to Tirana within days, only being held in the interim in the tents at Manston. When it is Iraqis, Afghans, Syrians, Iranians, Palestinians, there are very sound reasons to treat them humanely and consider asylum sympathetically when their home country is riven with war or tyrannical retribution-fuelled regimes. Besides which, many/most do genuinely want to become contributing members of civil society, paying their way. There are many jobs that indigenous people simply will not or can not do - look at the loss of crops of fruit and veg during Covid when the foreign farm workers had to stay away. Brexit meant that instead of legal migration from within the EU, we got more illegal and legal migration from Africa and Asia.
I don't know anything about this "Brit Card", but I do know that without a form of mandatory national id document, the Police and others are often stymied in their attempts to do their job.It doesn't seem to be a problem in most other countries and certainly not in Europe. There seems to be an irrational anxiety about it in the UK, but if we had this, it would be much easier to detect and detain illegal immigrants, and criminals, and easier to determine someone's entitlement to social and health services. I don't agree with joining everything up, but a biometric id card is a no brainer in my view.
Still, the British seem to always want to go back to a Victorian diaspora where Britain had an Empire and "abroad" is filled with foreigners who were lesser beings. "We" won two world wars and beat the Germans at football once 60 years ago. It could all be so much more civilised and outward-looking, but instead we are stuck defensively refusing to accept ideas from elsewhere.
Expecting to be flamed etc, but felt like a bit of a rant.
 
I can support a few bits of Lindsay's post above from my own limited knowledge, simply because I have a very close contact who has a senior HO job directly dealing with the people who arrive by boat. Obviously, he is subject to the OSA, but odd things have come to notice and it's clear that "repatriation" has been stepped up dramatically, and that it would increase at a far greater rate if there was the political will to do, i.e. if there were anywhere near enough resources available to process the asylum applications.

Some of the figures won't be embargoed, but I guess that it doesn't suit the media to tell the truth.

I have personal knowledge about one attempted "voluntary removal". The lady concerned was here legally, on a 2 1/2 year visa that she was entitled to renew. She made a minor error on her application form, her application was rejected out of hand and she was told that she had a choice, either return voluntarily and re-apply from her own country, or be detained and deported. They forgot to mention the third option, to appeal to the immigration court, which she did successfully.

As it happens, I knew an enforcement officer whose job it is to detain people in that situation and asked for advice. His advice was to run and hide. In short, there's very strong evidence that we don't even treat legal immigrants fairly and transparently.
 
I carry my driving licence and bank cards everywhere, which readily identifies me, but I've not really looked into the potential negatives of a National ID card so I can't really comment properly on that.

Re. illegal/legal immigrants etc. as I often say, the peaceful majority are irrelevant. There is pretty clear correlation between mass immigration and crime, especially sexual crime (Sweden, Denmark etc) which presumably is a minority but that's all it seems to take. Speaking of Sweden, I believe they are now wanting to pay up to $34,000 to immigrants to leave (which I believe they then end up in Ireland), which begs the question that just like France, if they are so valuable to the economy etc, then why don't they want to keep them?
 
I carry my driving licence and bank cards everywhere, which readily identifies me, but I've not really looked into the potential negatives of a National ID card so I can't really comment properly on that.

Re. illegal/legal immigrants etc. as I often say, the peaceful majority are irrelevant. There is pretty clear correlation between mass immigration and crime, especially sexual crime (Sweden, Denmark etc) which presumably is a minority but that's all it seems to take. Speaking of Sweden, I believe they are now wanting to pay up to $34,000 to immigrants to leave (which I believe they then end up in Ireland), which begs the question that just like France, if they are so valuable to the economy etc, then why don't they want to keep them?

The extreme reading of the Digital ID Brit Card is that it's linking you with your banking, healthcare, etc etc and all that data is recorded for what you are doing, where you are going, what you are buying etc This is then said to lead on to a Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC) which is a new form of money that exists only in digital form - so you don't actually HAVE the money. And you need 'permission' as such to access it. There is also talk of people then being restricted on what they can purchase and where from. I also read somewhere about the good old 'carbon footprint' coming into it - so you could, for example, be blocked from buying fuel because you've already used too much this week. And blocked from buying a piece of beef at Asda because you bought beef burgers last week and so you are contributing to too much co2...... Instead you would have to buy chemical enhanced, processed food of which you can buy as much as you want :) Because that is unhealthy & will make you ill which is good because the pharmaceutical industry is huge and needs as many people as possible needing medication..... ;)

Again, this is what I've read. Not what I've fully researched into, so..... Maybe a pinch of salt & all that :)
 
It occurs to me to ask a question: why can the UN not deploy some of its staff in every country of passage, to provide a "refugee immigration clearing service"?

This would interview and classify each refugee, using the UN's resources to verify the claims and provide all the information required to the host country, which the refugee wishes to enter. Such a world wide service could be paid for by a levy on the immigration service of each member of the UN. The final decision on whether to grant entry would remain with the host country but the assessment would be based on the information provided by the UN.

Any person entering a country without permission would then have no grounds for appeal in the host country. It would be the right of the host to return the entrant to their original country without delay. At the same time, the host country would be able to speed up the entry of those applicants whose circumstances fitted the host's requirements. The resources currently being spent on illegal immigrants could then be put to more useful purposes.

Just a thought. :thinking:
 
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The extreme reading of the Digital ID Brit Card is that it's linking you with your banking, healthcare, etc etc and all that data is recorded for what you are doing, where you are going, what you are buying etc This is then said to lead on to a Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC) which is a new form of money that exists only in digital form - so you don't actually HAVE the money. And you need 'permission' as such to access it. There is also talk of people then being restricted on what they can purchase and where from. I also read somewhere about the good old 'carbon footprint' coming into it - so you could, for example, be blocked from buying fuel because you've already used too much this week. And blocked from buying a piece of beef at Asda because you bought beef burgers last week and so you are contributing to too much co2...... Instead you would have to buy chemical enhanced, processed food of which you can buy as much as you want :) Because that is unhealthy & will make you ill which is good because the pharmaceutical industry is huge and needs as many people as possible needing medication..... ;)

Again, this is what I've read. Not what I've fully researched into, so..... Maybe a pinch of salt & all that :)


The linking with healthcare, banking etc doesn't bother too much, so long as it's not vulnerable to theft. From a security point of view, HMRC Connect can tap into most things anyway and I'm sure a lot of healthcare stuff is all accessible across multiple departments as well, although not 100% on that.

I'd forgotten about the CBDC. Well aware of it, I've posted on here about it in the past, as well as the social scoring. Both are a big no-no for me.
 
It occurs to me to ask a question: why can the UN not deploy some of its staff in every country of passage, to provide a "refugee immigration clearing service"?

This would interview and classify each refugee, using the UN's resources to verify the claims and provide all the information required to the host country, which the refugee wishes to enter. Such a world wide service could be paid for by a levy on the immigration service of each member of the UN. The final decision on whether to grant entry would remain with the host country but the assessment would be based on the information provided by the UN.

Any person entering a country without permission would then have no grounds for appeal in the host country. It would be the right of the host to return the entrant to their original country without delay. At the same time, the host country would be able to speed up the entry of those applicants whose circumstances fitted the host's requirements. The resources currently being spent on illegal immigrants could then be put to more useful purposes.

Just a thought. :thinking:

Would many governments allow an outside agency to control their immigration? Image how that would play out for Reform Ltd.
 
It has long been pointed out by refugee etc charities that if the UK allowed people to apply for asylum at a local or near-local embassy, much of the problem would be addressed. It would indeed make it easier and more justifiable in ECHR terms to kick out people who could and should have applied in Italy or Malta or Spain at a British embassy or consulate. Of course Brexit also banjaxed that thanks to losing the Dublin treaty covering returns.
The multi-connected digital id is a scary thing, right enough, and is only really intended to benefit certain controlling interests such as Microsoft, Amazon and other major corporations who have HMG in their pockets (who hosts most HMG IT systems? Azure and AWS). A biometric id card does not have to be linked to anything except the fingerprint and facial image database owned by the Police. As regards HMRC and personal data - on the one hand they are a nasty organisation with staff and external contractors running a "Behaviour Modification Unit" (the source of all hose threatening letters about tax you don't owe that arrive around Christmas) but (having for a brief while worked on their systems) their IT capability is pretty ropey and inefficient, largely outsourced as it is to south asian IT companies who are not known for their quality but are known for overcharging and under-delivering.
 
Would many governments allow an outside agency to control their immigration? Image how that would play out for Reform Ltd.
I tried to make clear that I proposed the UN or similar would do the checking, having direct access to the country of origin,

The host country would then make the decision, on the basis of such checks, whether to offer the applicant a place. If the host refused to make such an offer, I would expect that to be added to the applicant's file.

I envisage that any person arriving without the checking or the subject host country's agreement would, in such a system, be illegal and returned to their home country, without any resort to the courts.
 
Perhaps they could use the threat of brining in infectious diseases as a reason to close the borders to illegal entry. Use Public Health to invoke emergency powers, after all they were willing and able to use emergency powers for COVID, housing etc.
 
It has long been pointed out by refugee etc charities that if the UK allowed people to apply for asylum at a local or near-local embassy, much of the problem would be addressed. It would indeed make it easier and more justifiable in ECHR terms to kick out people who could and should have applied in Italy or Malta or Spain at a British embassy or consulate. Of course Brexit also banjaxed that thanks to losing the Dublin treaty covering returns.
The multi-connected digital id is a scary thing, right enough, and is only really intended to benefit certain controlling interests such as Microsoft, Amazon and other major corporations who have HMG in their pockets (who hosts most HMG IT systems? Azure and AWS). A biometric id card does not have to be linked to anything except the fingerprint and facial image database owned by the Police. As regards HMRC and personal data - on the one hand they are a nasty organisation with staff and external contractors running a "Behaviour Modification Unit" (the source of all hose threatening letters about tax you don't owe that arrive around Christmas) but (having for a brief while worked on their systems) their IT capability is pretty ropey and inefficient, largely outsourced as it is to south asian IT companies who are not known for their quality but are known for overcharging and under-delivering.

Something rings a bell that it was BAE who were involved in the development of HMRC Connect and possibly an American or Canadian venture capitalist company, but I'd need to check. I'm not sure about the ongoing management of it, but presumably it is being constantly improved so logic would dictate BAE would still be involved?

An ID card that was simply just that, to identify me, I would have no problem with. But my driving licence does that anyway. Granted, not everyone has a driving licence though.
 
...(having for a brief while worked on their systems) their IT capability is pretty ropey and inefficient, largely outsourced as it is to south asian IT companies who are not known for their quality but are known for overcharging and under-delivering.
That's sad to hear.

I worked with some departmental computing for a few years in the late 1980s to the early 1990s and they were, so far as I could tell, very well organised. What's more, I witnessed, from a front row seat, how they treated suppliers who tried to "put one over" on them.

My sister, who was in a department for many years, got out partly because she believed that decades of tory mismanagement had eroded the old Civil Service ethic... :(
 
It occurs to me to ask a question: why can the UN not deploy some of its staff in every country of passage, to provide a "refugee immigration clearing service"?

This would interview and classify each refugee, using the UN's resources to verify the claims and provide all the information required to the host country, which the refugee wishes to enter. Such a world wide service could be paid for by a levy on the immigration service of each member of the UN. The final decision on whether to grant entry would remain with the host country but the assessment would be based on the information provided by the UN.

Any person entering a country without permission would then have no grounds for appeal in the host country. It would be the right of the host to return the entrant to their original country without delay. At the same time, the host country would be able to speed up the entry of those applicants whose circumstances fitted the host's requirements. The resources currently being spent on illegal immigrants could then be put to more useful purposes.

Just a thought. :thinking:
Interesting and radical, and maybe a great idea. But, could it actually work in practice?
My immediate thought is that international law provides (and has always provideded) every person who is rescued at sea with the absolute right to enter whichever country the captain of the rescue ship lands them at. No visa needed, no documents of any kind needed, no health checks, just an absolute right both to enter the country and to be cared for there.

The Titanic survivors are a case in point, The Carpathia wasn't planning to go to the USA when she rescued the Titanic survivers, she was heading to Croatia but because of a shortage of food and space she turned around and took them to the nearest landfall, New York, becausue Captain Rostron decided to, and nobody could or even wanted to challenge that - mind you, they were all white - and that's the legal loophole that the boat people are using. If they land on our beaches then they have arrived illegally, but they are in fact rescued at sea and have handed over their choice of country to the captain of the rescue ship.
 
Interesting and radical, and maybe a great idea. But, could it actually work in practice?
My immediate thought is that international law provides (and has always provideded) every person who is rescued at sea with the absolute right to enter whichever country the captain of the rescue ship lands them at. No visa needed, no documents of any kind needed, no health checks, just an absolute right both to enter the country and to be cared for there.

The Titanic survivors are a case in point, The Carpathia wasn't planning to go to the USA when she rescued the Titanic survivers, she was heading to Croatia but because of a shortage of food and space she turned around and took them to the nearest landfall, New York, becausue Captain Rostron decided to, and nobody could or even wanted to challenge that - mind you, they were all white - and that's the legal loophole that the boat people are using. If they land on our beaches then they have arrived illegally, but they are in fact rescued at sea and have handed over their choice of country to the captain of the rescue ship.

The obvious difference from events like The Carpathia with what is happening in the English Channel is that in the Channel they are clearly abusing International Law and it's actually human trafficking by criminal gangs. So I would argue that we should be able to use emergency powers to supersede such laws.

Furthermore, we are travelling into French waters to pick them up. Perhaps we should stop this and wait until they arrive on the beaches.
 
The obvious difference from events like The Carpathia with what is happening in the English Channel is that in the Channel they are clearly abusing International Law and it's actually human trafficking by criminal gangs. So I would argue that we should be able to use emergency powers to supersede such laws.

Furthermore, we are travelling into French waters to pick them up. Perhaps we should stop this and wait until they arrive on the beaches.
You're right, but the law deals in facts, not motives, and the law trumps suspected motives.
They are rescued by British ships in French waters because they are in danger, whether they have deliberately placed themselves in that danger or not makes no difference. They can't be taken back to France because they threaten to jump overboard, so the captains have to bring them here. Perhaps RN ships (do we still have any?) could pick them up, lock them up below and take them to France?
 
And, to get back on topic, the few rights that we did have were thrown away when we left the EU, which is why the situation is now far worse than it was.
 
You're right, but the law deals in facts, not motives, and the law trumps suspected motives.
They are rescued by British ships in French waters because they are in danger, whether they have deliberately placed themselves in that danger or not makes no difference. They can't be taken back to France because they threaten to jump overboard, so the captains have to bring them here. Perhaps RN ships (do we still have any?) could pick them up, lock them up below and take them to France?

I think it's been very well established that it's gone long past motives and it is indeed a fact that criminal gangs are people trafficking and therefore abusing international law. If not, then what gangs need to be smashed?

Why are they in danger just a few miles off the French coast before getting near to any shipping lanes? If it's so dangerous, then why isn't the EU coming down hard on France for not making proper effort to secure their beaches and prevent this?

If they threaten to jump overboard in French waters, why is that our problem and not the French?
 
Interesting and radical, and maybe a great idea. But, could it actually work in practice?
My immediate thought is that international law provides (and has always provideded) every person who is rescued at sea with the absolute right to enter whichever country the captain of the rescue ship lands them at. No visa needed, no documents of any kind needed, no health checks, just an absolute right both to enter the country and to be cared for there.

The Titanic survivors are a case in point, The Carpathia wasn't planning to go to the USA when she rescued the Titanic survivers, she was heading to Croatia but because of a shortage of food and space she turned around and took them to the nearest landfall, New York, becausue Captain Rostron decided to, and nobody could or even wanted to challenge that - mind you, they were all white - and that's the legal loophole that the boat people are using. If they land on our beaches then they have arrived illegally, but they are in fact rescued at sea and have handed over their choice of country to the captain of the rescue ship.
Hmmm! then why not return them to France.....or does it then depend on whose territorial waters they were picked up in?

I surmise the majority of the English Channel has no zone of international waters which likely complicates the question?
 
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