The great TP election thread

dejongj said:
Why not stand in more areas? I think they would have gotten a lot more votes...
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The clue is in the name :) seriously England needs some kind of analogue party, an English National Party to look after English interests, one that can't be hijacked by extremist edjits.
 
kendo1 said:
We just do that on holidays now.
Fighting the English was considered 'holidays' back then.
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strictly speaking fighting the romans - the tribes south of the wall were largely on your side (and the aenglish were still in Germania)
 
Steep said:
The clue is in the name :) seriously England needs some kind of analogue party, an English National Party to look after English interests, one that can't be hijacked by extremist edjits.
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So does Scotland. Just as too far to the right is bad too far to the left is no better
 
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It's the worst result of any election in my lifetime(too long now) not because of the party that was elected or by the majority but by the fact that it has shown that democracy has not worked properly.It has been highlighted by many factors that the sytem in place works OK with a 2 party battle but not with more.The other problem that is now highlighted is that to get a fairer system it has to be changed but the only people who can change it are the people who have been elected by the present system so are unlikely to change it.The UK has been always been a bastion of democracy but this election has shown failings in the system.4 million votes and 1 seat out of 650,1.5 million votes all from another country and 56 seats out of 650.That's not democracy.There has been some silly games played somewhere along the line! The Lib Dems where never as bad as the results indicated.:thinking:
 
shapeshifter said:
It's the worst result of any election in my lifetime(too long now) not because of the party that was elected or by the majority but by the fact that it has shown that democracy has not worked properly.It has been highlighted by many factors that the sytem in place works OK with a 2 party battle but not with more.The other problem that is now highlighted is that to get a fairer system it has to be changed but the only people who can change it are the people who have been elected by the present system so are unlikely to change it.The UK has been always been a bastion of democracy but this election has shown failings in the system.4 million votes and 1 seat out of 650,1.5 million votes all from another country and 56 seats out of 650.That's not democracy.There has been some silly games played somewhere along the line! The Lib Dems where never as bad as the results indicated.:thinking:
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Agreed

The LibDems are far better for the UK than their new representation in HoC ....... shame of the British people for rewarding them in this way
UKIP should be given a bigger voice in the HoC considering the votes they received ........... if only to illustrate to the British people how incompetent their representatives are
The SNP representation in the HoC is way beyond their support ....... it is ridiculous and this "pandering" to Scotland will just continue. There should be a UK wide vote on an 'in or out' for Scotland ........ Sturgeon is being attributed authority far beyond what is fair and she is only a proxy for Salmon ........ they will strut around and disrupt progress as long as they are in HoC ....... no matter what the Queen wants the people in the rest of the UK surely should be allowed to express their opinion........... 1.5 million votes gets you 56 seats if you are Scottish!! ........ the financial relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK should be reformed and brought onto a correct basis ........... If it was not so serious it would be a joke ........ this dominance of the SNP will drive a bigger wedge between Scotland and the rest of the UK than that which has been allowed to develop ......... it will reach boiling point and end in "tears"

The two main parties will keep the same electoral system and persuade the electorate to do the same in any referendum because it benefits them ....... the argument for proportional representation and/or change will never be put correctly as the two main parties have all the airtime, money and press support.

I did not want to see a labour led Government ........ I wanted a continuance of the Tory/LibDem coalition .............. I almost think that with an overall Tory majority, the introduction of 56 SNP MP's into the HoC and the complete neutering of Nick Clegg and the LibDems ...... that we now have one of the poorest outcomes of all.

Of course the Labour Party in their current form should not be let near even the petty cash box and the loss of Balls and Miliband from our TV screen will be a breath of fresh air

Democracy is that as defined by about 500 MP's ........ so as they are the majority ......... that's what you will get.

just IMHO ........
 
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I kind of agree with some of your points Bills.

The main being that I find it utterly ridiculous that the SNP can have so many seats in the House of Commons with so few votes. The usual people will defend it, but surely is totally undemocratic?
 
OldCarlos said:
............ (& I'm not so sure they'll recover in my life time)

Before the whole side show started 6 weeks ago, I reckoned they'd be well beaten into 4th place.
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Wish I'd have put some money on now. :(
 
Thanks Ade ........ I think that it is quite a sad situation with the arrogance of the SNP driven by just a few people now being obvious ...... I hope that the saying "Hell has no fury like a woman scorned" will not be true

but it is just as bad all over Europe .......... arrogant greedy politicians carving up countries for their own benefit ......... in search of more power and money

The EU administrative machine is just a big "trough" with more and more administrators, MEP's and country representations feeding from it each day.............. "b****r" the rest of us ....... and the word "b****r" has never been more true

All the facts, statistics and figures are meaningless, what we need are trustworthy people

Can any of them be trusted?
 
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I am not one for bashing the Murdock press but I just got the newspapers through the door.The Daily Star is front page about UKIP 4 million votes and 1 seat and the Daily Mirror give coverage also.The Sun,I can not see any mention in the paper at all about the odd results caused by the present voting system,probably the biggest story today! :eek:
 
If we just look at Scotland

How can what has happened in Scotland be described as "democratic" - in broad terms 50% of the people did not vote for the SNP and are now not represented

Scotland has become a dictatorship ............ and with all their posturing about social justice, fairness and all that, Scotland is now the most unjust part of the UK

50% of the vote = 56 seats
25% of the vote = 1 seat

Take O and S out with their LibDem MP - they do not regard themselves as part of Scotland, and the imbalance is worse

This is very dangerous

Do you think the SNP will want to change this system?
 
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BillN_33 said:
If we just look at Scotland

How can what has happened in Scotland be described as "democratic" - in broad terms 50% of the people did not vote for the SNP and are now not represented

Scotland has become a dictatorship ............ and with all their posturing about social justice, fairness and all that Scotland is now the most unjust part of the UK
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We're all 'represented' - just not always by the candidate we voted for.

The SNPs job now (or any party seat) is to demonstrate why they're the best to represent us.
 
shapeshifter said:
It's the worst result of any election in my lifetime(too long now) not because of the party that was elected or by the majority but by the fact that it has shown that democracy has not worked properly.It has been highlighted by many factors that the sytem in place works OK with a 2 party battle but not with more.The other problem that is now highlighted is that to get a fairer system it has to be changed but the only people who can change it are the people who have been elected by the present system so are unlikely to change it.The UK has been always been a bastion of democracy but this election has shown failings in the system.4 million votes and 1 seat out of 650,1.5 million votes all from another country and 56 seats out of 650.That's not democracy.There has been some silly games played somewhere along the line! The Lib Dems where never as bad as the results indicated.:thinking:
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But the electorate had a vote a couple of years ago on changing systems and people decided to stay as we are. That is democracy in action.
 
dinners said:
We're all 'represented' - just not always by the candidate we voted for.

The SNPs job now (or any party seat) is to demonstrate why they're the best to represent us.
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so you reckon that the 15% who voted Conservative in Scotland will be fairly represented in Scotland do you?
 
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fracster said:
I kind of agree with some of your points Bills.

The main being that I find it utterly ridiculous that the SNP can have so many seats in the House of Commons with so few votes. The usual people will defend it, but surely is totally undemocratic?
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Completely, but we did vote to keep FPTP voting system. 1.5 million isn't even the majority (or if it is a majority its a slim one) of the Scottish votes, yet 56/59 of our constituencies have these SNP people in.

I think its time the notion of Scotland, England, Wales and NI was put to bed and we just saw ourselves as Britain and UK and each constituency sends its own MP be that through. FPTP or PR. Scottish govt should be dissolved. Its surplus to requirements and invokes ideas of separatism within the UK.
 
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shapeshifter said:
I am not one for bashing the Murdock press but I just got the newspapers through the door.The Daily Star is front page about UKIP 4 million votes and 1 seat and the Daily Mirror give coverage also.The Sun,I can not see any mention in the paper at all about the odd results caused by the present voting system,probably the biggest story today! :eek:
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Was the star campaigning for electoral reform prior to the 2011 referendum or is this sour grapes on their part?...
 
I think that what this Election has indicated is that because of the way that UK politics is developing it is time to debate and consider a reform of the Electoral system, even though it is NOT in the electoral interests of the three major parties, the third now being the SNP.
 
BillN_33 said:
so you reckon that the 15% who voted Conservative in Scotland will be fairly represented in Scotland do you?
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Well I didn't vote SNP and I'm now represented (Ochil and South Perthshire) by SNP MP Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh.

All I'm saying is that her job is to represent everybody equally, regardless of how we voted. Same goes for every constituency.
 
shapeshifter said:
I don't know what you mean.The article in the Star is a valid and important point about a voting system that is providing some odd results.View attachment 36883
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Apologies if I wasn't clear. The star is now complaining about the result of the election as their favoured party, UKIP, is poorly represented. If they believed the system to be a poor one, which it appears they are now saying, why didn't they campaign to get this system changed prior to the referendum. I have looked back at the headlines on the day prior to the vote and don't see any mention of the referendum.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that the star doesn't wish for a electoral change until it gets a result it doesn't like.
 
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dinners said:
Well I didn't vote SNP and I'm now represented (Ochil and South Perthshire) by SNP MP Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh.

All I'm saying is that her job is to represent everybody equally, regardless of how we voted. Same goes for every constituency.
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I agree Phil, that it is her job ............... all I am saying is that the SNP will strive to implement their policies, (or they should if they are true to their Manifesto), most will not be what a Tory voter would want and indeed what a Tory voter would definitely NOT want ..... and I think that it is more serious than that in what has happened in Scotland, in that the SNP will never let go of the independence bone, is a major fundemental issue. Scottish Labour and the Tories are against this ........ would you be prepared to allow Scotland to become independent if only 51% or say 60% of the country voting for it.
I cannot see any SNP MP have any empathy with a Tory voter ..... even if she was born in Chelsea

If I were Scottish, my view would have been to go for Independence because of the mess that UK politics has become ....... this election has change my mind because an independent Scotland with a first past the post system when 96% of the seats are given to 50% of the voters is not a democratic system and will only lead to grief.

From an English perspective, I would however support Scotland now leaving the UK as IMHO the SNP under their current leadership will be a major disruptive force which will work against both the Labour and the Tory parties. If they stay with the rest of the UK, this will not change for years.

IMHO, the current system because of these extremes is now not fit for purpose and there needs to be a rethink
 
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shapeshifter said:
I am not one for bashing the Murdock press but I just got the newspapers through the door.The Daily Star is front page about UKIP 4 million votes and 1 seat and the Daily Mirror give coverage also.The Sun,I can not see any mention in the paper at all about the odd results caused by the present voting system,probably the biggest story today! :eek:
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They're not "news"papers.
 
BillN_33 said:
I think that what this Election has indicated is that because of the way that UK politics is developing it is time to debate and consider a reform of the Electoral system, even though it is NOT in the electoral interests of the three major parties, the third now being the SNP.
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Did that 2 or 3 years ago.
 
I wonder if they will allow the English people a referendum on whether we want to rid the UK of Scotland?..........:naughty:
 
BillN_33 said:
so you reckon that the 15% who voted Conservative in Scotland will be fairly represented in Scotland do you?
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Mostly they will, don't forget these were UK elections and the conservatives got 20% more votes than the next biggest party and now have a majority. So from a UK perspective they've won and not the SNP.
 
dejongj said:
Mostly they will, don't forget these were UK elections and the conservatives got 20% more votes than the next biggest party and now have a majority. So from a UK perspective they've won and not the SNP.
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I said "fairly represented in Scotland"

The SNP are a left wing Nationalist Party
 
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BillN_33 said:
I agree Phil, that it is her job ............... all I am saying is that the SNP will strive to implement their policies, (or they should if they are true to their Manifesto), most will not be what a Tory voter would want and indeed what a Tory voter would definitely NOT want ..... and I think that it is more serious than that in what has happened in Scotland, in that the SNP will never let go of the independence bone............ this is a major fundemental issue. Scottish Labour and the Tories are against this ........ would you be prepared to allow Scotland to become independent if only 51% or say 60% of the country voted for it.
I cannot see any SNP MP have any empathy with a Tory voter ..... even if she was born in Chelsea

If I were Scottish, my view would have been to go for Independence because of the mess that UK politics has become ....... this election has change my mind because an independent Scotland with a first past the post system when 96% of the seats are given to 50% of the voters is not a democratic system and will only lead to grief.

From an English perspective, I would however support Scotland now leaving the UK as IMHO the SNP under their current leadership will be a major disruptive force which will work against both the Labour and the Tory parties. If they stay with the rest of the UK, this will not change for years.

IMHO, the current system because of these extremes is now not fit for purpose and there needs to be a rethink
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Whilst I agree with your view re the result generally (and I voted for electoral reform, did you?). This is fundamentally wrong. We elected a single party govt. the SNP have a voice but no mandate, anyone who voted Tory in Scotland is having their views represented in the cabinet room. Anyone who voted SNP, UKIP, Lib Dem or Labour isn't getting their view represented.

The Scottish Tories are the lucky recipients of this result rather than being under represented.
 
Scotland do not use the First Past the Post system in their own parliamentary elections or councils
UK law require them to do so for the UK parliament.
They have a better grip on democracy than England.
wiki
Electoral systems now used in Scotland are:

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BillN_33 said:
I am aware of that, but this last Election has given the most disproportional results in British history - things do change
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They do, but you can't keep having referendums on the same thing, who knows, it might change again in 5 years. It would be interesting to see though what the results would have been with PR - unlikely to get people making protest votes. Would as many people really vote UKIP or Green if they knew it could result in more MPs? I would probably have voted differently had it been PR.

fracster said:
I wonder if they will allow the English people a referendum on whether we want to rid the UK of Scotland?..........:naughty:
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I for one would vote YES! Normally I am very traditional (love royal family, pageantry, house of lords, history etc...) but in this case the scots seem to be determined to want to leave and their political ideas are totally at odds with ours. Let them go (with SNP in charge they will soon be like greece).
 
shapeshifter said:
I don't know what you mean.The article in the Star is a valid and important point about a voting system that is providing some odd results.View attachment 36883
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If the Star is trying to make a point it's wilfully ignoring facts in order to tell a story for thick people to understand. 4 million people didn't vote for Farage, they voted UKIP.
And again, were the Star campaigning for electoral reform 5 years ago?

5 years ago when those UKIPPers were voting Labour or Conservative, they saw electoral reform as a symptom the political class took itself too seriously, that it was just a way to ensure we got more lib dem MP's.
 
The voting system hasn't changed in years, so why is everyone moaning about it now just because of the seats that SNP won?
It's not the SNP's fault that the other parties didn't do enough to convince more people to vote for them.
SNP are all in favour of changing the UK system.
The only difference is that the SNP won't be controlled in Westminster the way that the other parties would.
 
Phil V said:
Whilst I agree with your view re the result generally (and I voted for electoral reform, did you?).
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Unfortunately I could not vote, (well so i thought), as if I remember correctly it was on the same day as the UK local Elections.

I am a French resident, but of course not a French citizen. I lived and worked in the UK until I was 62 years old and although I still pay taxes in the UK, on my pensions and other unearned income, some of which I get back, I can only vote in UK General Elections and after 15 years abroad will not be able to vote at all in the UK. I presumed, rightly or wrongly, that I could not vote on AV, being on the same day as the locals, which we are not allowed to vote in.

In most "Euro" countries you are resident if you live there and spend more than 6 months a year there. In the UK, for some reason, if you spend an average of 3 months per year in a 5 year period you are UK resident. So you have to be careful as although UK tax is reasonable, French tax is not any better and french social charges of 15.5% are also payable on top of income tax on earned income and most unearned income with no limit, (in the UK social charges, national insurance if you like, is only payable on earned income with quite a low maximum charge).

We prefer France to the UK for many reasons and vice versa, the UK is still a marvellous country ........ in France your money can go a lot further in retirement than in the UK.......... we cannot go back to the UK for more than 3 months a year so we spend a couple of months a year in South Africa ....... once you get there, and the return flight is only £850, the cost of living is a third of the UK and you can rent a car for less than £100 a week ........ what you save on heating in France/the UK, goes a long way to paying for the trip.

I always find South Africa quite a happy place ...... even with it's problems ....... the people generally have enthusiasm and hope

Although I find UK politics more and more disappointing, (traditional S Yorks upbringing, although I would now never vote socialist again), UK politics does not really effect us anymore .......... and I can view from afar although I get back to the UK quite a lot and my family live there.............. In the UK I do find some areas and the attitude of some people very depressing.

My 2 pence worth ......... on this hot sunny day in SW France

I've been lucky compared with many
 
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BillN_33 said:
If I were Scottish, my view would have been to go for Independence
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If I were Scottish I may have voted YES but I'm not and I didn't.

I'm English and proud to be British.

So much of it was a punt into the unknown so many voted YES or NO for patriotic reasons.
 
BillN_33 said:
I said "fairly represented in Scotland"

The SNP are a left wing Nationalist Party
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I know but these were national elections weren't they? When the elections for the Scottish parliament are there then it would all depends on who gets in....I see this as much as an anti-labour vote and thus a win for the concervatives...Then again even if labour got those votes they still couldn't get a majority which was nice....
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
The voting system hasn't changed in years, so why is everyone moaning about it now just because of the seats that SNP won?
It's not the SNP's fault that the other parties didn't do enough to convince more people to vote for them.
SNP are all in favour of changing the UK system.
The only difference is that the SNP won't be controlled in Westminster the way that the other parties would.
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My issue is, and always has been, how can such a small percentage of the population, have so many seats available to them in Westminster?

It is wrong and always has been in my opinion.
 
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BillN_33 said:
Unfortunately I could not vote, (well so i thought), as if I remember correctly it was on the same day as the UK local Elections.

I am a French resident, but of course not a French citizen. I lived and worked in the UK until I was 62 years old and although I still pay taxes in the UK, on my pensions and other unearned income, some of which I get back, I can only vote in UK General Elections and after 15 years abroad will not be able to vote at all in the UK. I presumed, rightly or wrongly, that I could not vote on AV, being on the same day as the locals, which we are not allowed to vote in.

In most "Euro" countries you are resident if you live there and spend more than 6 months a year there. In the UK, for some reason, if you spend an average of 3 months per year in a 5 year period you are UK resident. So you have to be careful as although UK tax is reasonable, French tax is not any better and french social charges of 15.5% are also payable on top of income tax on earned income and most unearned income with no limit, (in the UK social charges, national insurance if you like, is only payable on earned income with quite a low maximum charge).

We prefer France to the UK for many reasons and vice versa, the UK is still a marvellous country ........ in France your money can go a lot further in retirement than in the UK.......... we cannot go back to the UK for more than 3 months a year so we spend a couple of months a year in South Africa ....... once you get there, and the flight is only £850, the cost of living is a third of the UK and you can rent a car for less than £100 a week ........ what you save on heating in France/the UK, goes a long way to paying for the trip.

I always find South Africa quite a happy place ...... even with it's problems ....... the people generally have enthusiasm and hope

Although I find UK politics more and more disappointing, (traditional S Yorks upbringing, although I would now never vote socialist), UK politics does not really effect us anymore .......... and I can view from afar although I get back to the UK quite a lot and my family live there.............. I do find some areas and the attitude of some people very depressing.

My 2 pence worth ......... on this hot sunny day in SW France

I've been lucky compared with many
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Sorry.
I think I knew you were living in France (brain fade) :( - it wasn't a personal dig, but I know most people (a big majority) didn't vote on the AV referendum, and those that did vote, voted against by a sizeable majority.
 
fracster said:
My issue is, and always has been, how can such a small percentage of the population, have so many seats available to them in Westminster?

It is wrong and always has been in my opinion.
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I think that it is even worse in Wales Ade .. they get more seats than they are "proportional" due to compared with England

But the European systems are screwed up and I'd be better moving to South Africa and living in the mountains up back from the South coast, (my wife says No! - go by yourself), ..... inspirational every morning when you wake up ........ and a wonder to see every day ......... I have been trying to persuade both my (grown up) kids who are both very well qualified and paid to leave the UK and get out into the world before they are ground down by the system in Europe ......... but I'm just a "grumpy old man"
 
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