The great TP election thread

[Bobsyeruncle]

No, I'm capable of suggesting more than solution to a problem.

Maybe you should run for parliament and sort out the mess we're in.
Couldn't do any worse

 

[OldCarlos]

Ok so how will we struggle then? Sorry but you didn't actually say anything in that post.

Kinell, surely you can see large sections of society are struggling now! What else did you want me to say?!?! You seem to be cherry picking from my quotes, which won't win me over, nor will it solve the hardship for anyone .

So the answer? Austerity was the only thing that would get us back on track. Or would you rather we had the greek or spanish economies?

Think of it like this, I take home £2k pm but my outgoings come to £3.5k. So I can either carry on as I do and basically go bust, or I can reduce spending while I try to earn a bit more. Increase those numbers many times and that what the county is in. No-one wanted austerity... but we were spending too much, and there needs to be cuts. Remember that Labout massively overspent, had the kept a better balance of the books, the cuts needed now would not need to be so severe.

Please don't try to explain basic maths or common sense to me. My Father taught me not to live beyond my means from day one.
His favourite saying was, `If you earn £25 & spend £24 you're laughing, but if you spend £26 ...... you're in the 5h!t`

Apart from a mortgage I owe no one a penny! I don't do loans/finance, even for a car. If I want something I save up until I have enough to pay for it.
Another of my Dad's words of wisdom was `Peace of mind is worth a fortune`

I practice what I preach..............common sense.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

Kinell, surely you can see large sections of society are struggling now! What else did you want me to say?!?! You seem to be cherry picking from my quotes, which won't win me over, nor will it solve the hardship for anyone .



Please don't try to explain basic maths or common sense to me. My Father taught me not to live beyond my means from day one.
His favourite saying was, `If you earn £25 & spend £24 you're laughing, but if you spend £26 ...... you're in the 5h!t`

Apart from a mortgage I owe no one a penny! I don't do loans/finance, even for a car. If I want something I save up until I have enough to pay for it.
Another of my Dad's words of wisdom was `Peace of mind is worth a fortune`

I practice what I preach..............common sense.

So anyone that borrows money doesn't have any common sense?

 

[Phil V]

Don't agree with that at all. More people than ever before have been taken out of paying tax altogether. Not just the first year but every subsequent year as well. And that is just one example...

Which sounds all nice and liberal...

Unless you know how much someone on the NMW earns for working full time and you can compare it to the lowest tax threshold (simple maths £12.5k vs 10k)

Then the soft liberal headline is actually that there are more low paid part time workers than there ever have been.

Ohh. Those lovely kind Tories helping all the poor people to not pay tax... By not paying them enough to eat.

 

[RedRobin]

Ohh. Those lovely kind Tories helping all the poor people to not pay tax... By not paying them enough to eat.

....Really? I don't think that anyone who has a job is paid so little that they can't afford to eat.

Are those "poor people" you refer to Labour voters by any chance?

 

[Phil V]

You'd need a very loose grasp of economics to believe that the only cost to the country of the banking crisis is the banks we actually bailed out.

In fact naive to the point of ignorance. I can understand a politician or journalist pushing that line, but I'm gobsmacked that people who can count believe it.

 

[Phil V]

....Really? I don't think that anyone who has a job is paid so little that they can't afford to eat.

Are those "poor people" you refer to Labour voters by any chance?

So if you work 17 hrs on the NMW, how much do you earn? Would it be leaving you with the choice between heating and eating?

And yes, people do forget that a huge number of people living below the breadline are actually working. The media are feeding you 'benefit street', and you have no idea of the realities of the benefit budget, who gets it, who's fiddling it, and who really gets rich from all our cash (it's not the poor, or foreigners or the disabled).

It's not party political. I was simply pointing out that 'more people pay no tax' actually means 'more people earning very little money'. How is that even a point for contention? They're 2 views of exactly the same fact.

 

[dejongj]

So if you work 17 hrs on the NMW, how much do you earn? Would it be leaving you with the choice between heating and eating?

And yes, people do forget that a huge number of people living below the breadline are actually working. The media are feeding you 'benefit street', and you have no idea of the realities of the benefit budget, who gets it, who's fiddling it, and who really gets rich from all our cash (it's not the poor, or foreigners or the disabled).

It's not party political. I was simply pointing out that 'more people pay no tax' actually means 'more people earning very little money'. How is that even a point for contention? They're 2 views of exactly the same fact.

If I only work 17 hours per week then yes I would get hungry as well. Guess what, most of us would look to work more and get second and third jobs not look for support from those that do choose to work a full working week.

And on your last point it also benefits those that do create more income. But at least those that didn't, or cant benefit as well.

 

[dejongj]

Kinell, surely you can see large sections of society are struggling now! What else did you want me to say?!?! You seem to be cherry picking from my quotes, which won't win me over, nor will it solve the hardship for anyone .



Please don't try to explain basic maths or common sense to me. My Father taught me not to live beyond my means from day one.
His favourite saying was, `If you earn £25 & spend £24 you're laughing, but if you spend £26 ...... you're in the 5h!t`

Apart from a mortgage I owe no one a penny! I don't do loans/finance, even for a car. If I want something I save up until I have enough to pay for it.
Another of my Dad's words of wisdom was `Peace of mind is worth a fortune`

I practice what I preach..............common sense.

And yet you are still not saying anything other than agreeing that we should get rid of the deficit

 

[Llamaman]

Maybe you should run for parliament and sort out the mess we're in.
Couldn't do any worse

Meh. Put my job security in the hands of strangers, take a pay cut and subject my entire family to media scrutiny? Pass.

And therein lies the problem.

 

[woof woof]

So if you work 17 hrs on the NMW, how much do you earn? Would it be leaving you with the choice between heating and eating?

We are faced with some hard choices Phil and there's no pain free path forward that I can see.

Your point about the Tories not paying people enough phases me a bit. We need a safety net to catch and help those in genuine need and we need state employees, nurses, teachers, police and the like... but all that will eventually fall apart if we don't get some wealth from somewhere to sustain it all and if we can't sustain it all eventually those hard working state employees will go home one evening and say "I haven't been paid this month." That's happened in Greece and the Tories aren't in power there.

Sustainability is a modern buzz thing.... and we can only sustain spending more than we take in for a length of time. What that length of time is I don't know. One commentator said earlier today that we only recently paid off our debt from WW1, so that's knocking on for 100 years. The UK's debt is rising and we have that to deal with at some point and until we're in a position to start to we have the interest payments.

I'm not going to Google what the UK debt repayment schedules and amounts are and I'm not going to Google the annual cost of the NHS but lets imagine for a moment that the UK is magically debt free tomorrow morning and instead of paying interest on our debt we can put all that cash into the NHS and other worthy things Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Your point about heating and eating phases me a bit too. It's a sad truth that we have people in genuine need and there are places to turn to and help is often to be had. Genuine need does exist and I struggle when faced with people who could do more for themselves but don't. We need more people to try harder to fund their own lifestyle and rely on the state less.

If we don't make some hard choices and find a more sustainable way forward there's going to be a lot more need and worse, take a look around Europe never mind the rest of the world and I think you'll see that things could get a lot worse here, I'd rather face the economic issues we have now instead of leaving it all for some future generation to sort out.

Or we could just vote for jam today and damn the consequences. In Thailand some time ago one bribe was "Vote for us and we'll pay half the cost of a new car." That worked for a bit and now they have a military government. It might work here for a bit too and in fact it's worked here for years but IMVHO it's not a sustainable way forward

 

[dejongj]

Very well put @woof woof

A clear indicator that things are wrong, too me, is when people capable of work rely on benefits provided by the state. A dependency gets created, a relationship not too dissimilar to that between a drug dealer and their addicts gets created. It is not a healthy, sustainable situation.

 

[RedRobin]

It's not party political. I was simply pointing out that 'more people pay no tax' actually means 'more people earning very little money'.

....But you made it party political, Phil, when you wrote :

Ohh. Those lovely kind Tories helping all the poor people to not pay tax... By not paying them enough to eat.

You are entitled to be anti Tory if that's how your mind works but no government is able to wave a magic wand and solve all the problems. It's just that some political party's attempts are more successful than others and different folks have different problems which they expect government to solve. Politics is complicated just as human beings are and always will be.

 

[Phil V]

....But you made it party political, Phil, when you wrote :



You are entitled to be anti Tory if that's how your mind works but no government is able to wave a magic wand and solve all the problems. It's just that some political party's attempts are more successful than others and different folks have different problems which they expect government to solve. Politics is complicated just as human beings are and always will be.

Really?
The fact is still the fact. It's not party political.

I was making a simple point about politics, which is that you have to question their 'successes'. And one of the often quoted successes tripped out by the current administration is the one Dejongi posted 'more people paying no tax'. Which isn't something to be proud of when you realise how little money those people will be earning. It's a simple point, it doesn't require 20 sub posts, it can't be disagreed with, politicians use what they think is an attractive soundbite they hope to convince the electorate with.

Unless of course we're also proud of the non-dom billionaires who are paying no tax here whilst still funding and backing our political parties?

 

[dejongj]

Really?
The fact is still the fact. It's not party political. Tell me why I'm wrong or stop trying to troll the thread.

I must admit I can't be bothered Googling the figures so why not tell us.

However, to put it simply, say on 5/4/2008 under labour people had a allowance of £6035 over which no tax is due. Roll forward to 2015 that amount has increased to £10600. That is the facts. So under the coalition that is a huge improvement isn't it?

And not only that. Part of making that possible is done by lowering the threshold for the higher tax rate. That is another fact. Hmm directly targeted at those that have more. Isn't that what you support?

Sorry but if you immediately want to start playing the trolling card you really need to understand and be honest about the facts.

 

[Phil V]

I must admit I can't be bothered Googling the figures so why not tell us.

However, to put it simply, say on 5/4/2008 under labour people had a allowance of £6035 over which no tax is due. Roll forward to 2015 that amount has increased to £10600. That is the facts. So under the coalition that is a huge improvement isn't it?

And not only that. Part of making that possible is done by lowering the threshold for the higher tax rate. That is another fact. Hmm directly targeted at those that have more. Isn't that what you support?

Sorry but if you immediately want to start playing the trolling card you really need to understand and be honest about the facts.

No, it's not that simple, tax comes in many forms, and the tax changes under this govt have benefitted the rich at an actual cost to the poor.
There's plenty of breakdowns online.

But simply on the original point, there are more people working for low pay now than there were before, and that's growing. What the last 3 governments have done to allow government subsidisation of employers who pay a pittance is criminal.

'Not party political'

 

[StewartR]

I was simply pointing out that 'more people pay no tax' actually means 'more people earning very little money'. How is that even a point for contention? They're 2 views of exactly the same fact.

No they're not, Phil.

Suppose you have 100 people, earning £1k, £2k, £3k,... up to £100k, and the tax threshold is £6475 (as it was in 2010). That means 6 of those 100 people aren't paying tax.

Now suppose you give everybody a £1k rise, so they're now earning £2k, £3k, £4k,... up to £101k, and you increase the tax threshold to £10,000 (as it is now). Every single person in the population is now earning more than they were, and yet now 9 of the 100 people aren't paying tax.

Obviously it's a simplistic example but it demonstrates that your assertion is totally unwarranted. More people paying no tax means more people paying no tax, simple as that. It says absolutely nothing about how much people earn.

 

[OldCarlos]

And yet you are still not saying anything other than agreeing that we should get rid of the deficit

Read what I said. (you aren't a politician by any chance? )

 

[Phil V]

No they're not, Phil.

Suppose you have 100 people, earning £1k, £2k, £3k,... up to £100k, and the tax threshold is £6475 (as it was in 2010). That means 6 of those 100 people aren't paying tax.

Now suppose you give everybody a £1k rise, so they're now earning £2k, £3k, £4k,... up to £101k, and you increase the tax threshold to £10,000 (as it is now). Every single person in the population is now earning more than they were, and yet now 9 of the 100 people aren't paying tax.

Obviously it's a simplistic example but it demonstrates that your assertion is totally unwarranted. More people paying no tax means more people paying no tax, simple as that. It says absolutely nothing about how much people earn.

But whether you're earning £5k or £9k, you're still earning less than the full time NMW, so the fact is the only people this affects are those people. And that group of people is sadly growing.

 

[OldCarlos]

However, to put it simply, say on 5/4/2008 under labour people had a allowance of £6035 over which no tax is due. Roll forward to 2015 that amount has increased to £10600. That is the facts. So under the coalition that is a huge improvement isn't it?

It's an increase, obviously.

The thing is cost of living, prices, wages, etc tend to double every 10-15 years, so those figures are a fairly natural progression.

The thing is, I don't like that any party promises no tax rises etc. tbh I would gladly pay 40% tax & NI if it helped the country/society........providing EVERYONE earning above maybe 7.5k per annum contributes & the loopholes are closed for those who can easily afford to pay, but won't.

 

[OldCarlos]

So anyone that borrows money doesn't have any common sense?

????????????

Are you just on a point-scoring mission?

 

[dejongj]

But whether you're earning £5k or £9k, you're still earning less than the full time NMW, so the fact is the only people this affects are those people. And that group of people is sadly growing.

No it affects all of us. It will affect you and it will affect me, and it will affect all those people who want to do a part time job. Actually no point listing them as we all benefit simple as.

I think you are argueing for argument sake. Heck if the coalition would have lowered the threshold you'd also be moaning.

Come on man, you don't seem to be able to recognise a good thing when it hits you in the face. Either that or you aren't explaining your concern very well with the lash out to accusing people of trolling.

 

[Phil V]

No it affects all of us. It will affect you and it will affect me, and it will affect all those people who want to do a part time job. Actually no point listing them as we all benefit simple as.

I think you are argueing for argument sake. Heck if the coalition would have lowered the threshold you'd also be moaning.

Come on man, you don't seem to be able to recognise a good thing when it hits you in the face. Either that or you aren't explaining your concern very well with the lash out to accusing people of trolling.

I wasn't 'lashing out', I'm leaving this thread as I don't want to turn it into 'one of those'

 

[OldCarlos]

dejongj, you just SEEM to be spouting the party line & don't seem able to see it from anyone else's POV?

......that group of people is sadly growing

The rich get richer & the poor continue to get poorer.

 

[dejongj]

Read what I said. (you aren't a politician by any chance? )

Lol no doesn't pay enough, otherwise I would.

 

[dejongj]

dejongj, you just SEEM to be spouting the party line & don't seem able to see it from anyone else's POV?

......that group of people is sadly growing

The rich get richer & the poor continue to get poorer.

I was inviting an explanation of what was meant. Yet neither yourself did that, nor Phil cant seem to accept that things have improved. Yet when posing a reasonable argued argument people get accused of trolling.

Naturally the group who pay less tax is growing. Two million more jobs have been created. Surely that is a good thing?

 

[dejongj]

I wasn't 'lashing out', I'm leaving this thread as I don't want to turn it into 'one of those'

You did say it though, not me. Perhaps think about that a little

 

[Phil V]

You did say it though, not me. Perhaps think about that a little

It wasn't you I accused of trolling, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to 'weigh in'.

If you read my point, and the response, along with some other recent posts you might see where I was coming from.

But again, it should really be no concern of yours

Have a pleasant day.

 

[OldCarlos]

Two million more jobs have been created. Surely that is a good thing?

There may well have been new jobs created (although I wouldn't blindly trust that statement) but many of the new jobs are part-time.

Many many thousands of ordinary folk have lost their jobs in recent years & are now employed part-time...... because they can't find full time work!!!!!
The country lose out when folk are either un employed or working part-time. They claim benefits + the country lose out on income tax, NI contributions etc. It's a double whammy.

Figures/numbers are manipulated all the time to suit whoever is trying to win their argument.

There isn't much to choose between any of the main parties tbh & common sense is thin on the ground these days.

 

[dejongj]

There may well have been new jobs created (although I wouldn't blindly trust that statement) but many of the new jobs are part-time.

Many many thousands of ordinary folk have lost their jobs in recent years & are now employed part-time...... because they can't find full time work!!!!!
The country lose out when folk are either un employed or working part-time. They claim benefits + the country lose out on income tax, NI contributions etc. It's a double whammy.

Figures/numbers are manipulated all the time to suit whoever is trying to win their argument.

There isn't much to choose between any of the main parties tbh & common sense is thin on the ground these days.

And many people do enjoy working part time as well. I think it is hard to make sweeping statement like that and lay them at root cause of the coalition and any associated austerity measures.

Heck look at the business section on this forum alone and you can see how many enjoy working part time and supplement their income with their passion. I admire that, to me that is the right thing to do. It is about taking responsibility of your own destiny.

The flexible work force of this country is one of its greatest strengths. Something recognised by all parties including those 70 labour mps whose staff are on zero hour contracts.

So yes, other than some being more hypocritical about it than others, there isn't that much between them.

Although to me less is more. I want to see less state interference and less distortion. Everytime they well willingly help one group, it will go at the cost of another group. It is that that I fundamentally am against.

 

[OldCarlos]

I'm not talking about folk who WANT to work part time (& I think you know that ) I'm replying to you/Govt speil about all these extra wonderful jobs that have been created.

 

[OldCarlos]

Everytime they well willingly help one group, it will go at the cost of another group. It is that that I fundamentally am against.

`Divide & conquer` is why we are becoming a more fractured society.

Come the revolution!

 

[dejongj]

I'm not talking about folk who WANT to work part time (& I think you know that ) I'm replying to you/Govt speil about all these extra wonderful jobs that have been created.

Sometimes you cant get what you want, and if you don't like it then you need to control your own destiny and do something different.

It is not the role of government to create the jobs, they just need to enable an environment where business feel confident that they want to create jobs.

If people don't want part time contracts then they shouldn't accept them. If the employers cant get the staff that are willing to work then they'll have to change their employment and remuneration package. Considering there is generally in most industries not this issue then I would argue the validity of your point since many people seem happy enough to work how they are.

 

[StewartR]

But whether you're earning £5k or £9k, you're still earning less than the full time NMW, so the fact is the only people this affects are those people. And that group of people is sadly growing.

@Phil V: You've moved the goal posts, but you're still wrong.

It's a simple and undeniable fact that people who earn between £6k and £10k used to pay income tax 5 years ago, and now they don't. That's a good thing for them; the vast majority of sane individuals would agree that it's good for society; and without getting into heavy analysis it's almost certainly good for the economy. Can we at least agree on that?

Now there is a completely separate issue about how many people there are earning less than £10k, and why, and what opportunities they have to do better. Maybe there are more of them now than 5 years ago; maybe less. By all means let's discuss this. But you need to bring some data. You can't just say things are getting worse without data to support you, and you can't say the increased tax allowance has made things worse without some pretty sophisticated analysis to support you.

 

[boyfalldown]

Naturally the group who pay less tax is growing. Two million more jobs have been created. Surely that is a good thing?

On a headline level doubtless. But how many are McJobs, minimum wage and zero hours?

To me the biggest issue at the mo is this government likes headlines with no substance

 

[cambsno]

Figures/numbers are manipulated all the time to suit whoever is trying to win their argument.

There isn't much to choose between any of the main parties tbh & common sense is thin on the ground these days.

Thats true - but I don't know where the rich getting rich and the poor getting poorer comes from? Probably stats to prove and disprove this. I would say in a capitalist system then that will always be true. Even if the government took everything and gave everyone £200k each, in 5 years we would have a massive disparity.

I know people who have got richer in the last few years and some that are poorer. I know that living in Cambridge we are better off than most, around here, if you want a full time job you can get one.

 

[cambsno]

On a headline level doubtless. But how many are McJobs, minimum wage and zero hours?

To me the biggest issue at the mo is this government likes headlines with no substance

Don't you mean any governments?

 

[dejongj]

On a headline level doubtless. But how many are McJobs, minimum wage and zero hours?

To me the biggest issue at the mo is this government likes headlines with no substance

I don't know. Why not get thoses stats out and build up your argument.

But lets assume that that is the case, they are still jobs. I really see what the issue is with flexible jobs. And as I said, surely if there isn't a demand for them then employers have to offer something different.

All political parties seem to agree, heck even 70 of the labour mps have their staff on a zero hours contract. But more importantly companies are getting staff on those contracts so other people must like them as well.

I remember that when I was a student I had one of those. It was mutually convenient for both as I couldn't commit to fulltime.

I'd argue that a flexible workforce is great. The UK has had a great tradition of such flexibility.

 

[Phil V]

@Phil V: You've moved the goal posts, but you're still wrong.

It's a simple and undeniable fact that people who earn between £6k and £10k used to pay income tax 5 years ago, and now they don't. That's a good thing for them; the vast majority of sane individuals would agree that it's good for society; and without getting into heavy analysis it's almost certainly good for the economy. Can we at least agree on that?

Now there is a completely separate issue about how many people there are earning less than £10k, and why, and what opportunities they have to do better. Maybe there are more of them now than 5 years ago; maybe less. By all means let's discuss this. But you need to bring some data. You can't just say things are getting worse without data to support you, and you can't say the increased tax allowance has made things worse without some pretty sophisticated analysis to support you.

As I started this with a massive oversimplification to prove a simple point (there's more than one way to read a statistic).

We both agree that it can't tell the whole picture, as we have nowhere near enough data for that.

We do both agree though that earning less than £10k isn't a universally good thing.

 

[boyfalldown]

I don't know. Why not get thoses stats out and build up your argument.

But lets assume that that is the case, they are still jobs. I really see what the issue is with flexible jobs. And as I said, surely if there isn't a demand for them then employers have to offer something different.

All political parties seem to agree, heck even 70 of the labour mps have their staff on a zero hours contract. But more importantly companies are getting staff on those contracts so other people must like them as well.

I remember that when I was a student I had one of those. It was mutually convenient for both as I couldn't commit to fulltime.

I'd argue that a flexible workforce is great. The UK has had a great tradition of such flexibility.

I'd agree about a flexible workforce. Indeed when I had people work for me I had several guys on zero hours. But it was a two way thing. My impression is that's not often the case.

I don't want to make a google argument on stats though. That just leads to silliness.