The Fitness thread

[JonathanRyan]

I'm racking my brain here and can't think of any reason to stretch that doesn't come back to flexibility.

Improved balance and circulation of synovial fluid are a couple that come to mind.

But I'm very tired today. There may be more.

Oh yeah. It feels good.

 

[Phil Young]

Improved balance and circulation of synovial fluid are a couple that come to mind.

But I'm very tired today. There may be more.

Oh yeah. It feels good.

Balance...??

Synovial fluid circulation...?? How does stretching effect this?

Because it feels good will always be a plausible answer but that's not the discussion.

 

[JonathanRyan]

Sorry - too tired and busy to post references. But Google will help you.

As with all these things lots of people have done lots of research and some of it is even good quality.

For example, the often quoted "stretching doesn't prevent injury" study in the US actually said that changing what you did increased the risk of injury. But that wasn't quite such a cool headline.

 

[jacob12_1993]

Balance...??

Synovial fluid circulation...?? How does stretching effect this?

Because it feels good will always be a plausible answer but that's not the discussion.

I'm going to take a guess that by circulation Jonathan means that stretching releases synovial fluid from joints, which in turn is going to 'lubricate' the joints and prevent long term stress and wear, plenty of research on that fact.

 

[Phil Young]

I'm going to take a guess that by circulation Jonathan means that stretching releases synovial fluid from joints, which in turn is going to 'lubricate' the joints and prevent long term stress and wear, plenty of research on that fact.

Then we're just talking about a change in pressure, which happens with movement. For example, when you stand up from being seated and crack your knees, that's a change in pressure...but I can't see where the stretching part comes into it.

 

[Reidy36]

I understand the whole thing of being taught something and having belief in what you've been taught, and it doesn't effect me what you believe...

The above is correct but if you wish to disregard that information it is totally your privilege to do so.

Huh? What you on about Phil.
When I haven't stretched after runs etc, I struggle the next day. When I stretch I feel alot better the next day.

Baffle me with big words all you want, but what I know is that when I stretch after the recovery time decreases, what causes that I don't know, but what I do know is it works for me, may not work for you or others, but I am happy in the knowledge I will feel better.

 

[Phil Young]

Huh? What you on about Phil.
When I haven't stretched after runs etc, I struggle the next day. When I stretch I feel alot better the next day.

Baffle me with big words all you want, but what I know is that when I stretch after the recovery time decreases, what causes that I don't know, but what I do know is it works for me, may not work for you or others, but I am happy in the knowledge I will feel better.

And you're sure you would have been in pain if you didn't stretch? Seems like a simple question but think about it, if we weighed everything up, I bet there would be more to this than stretching...

 

[Phil Young]

Sorry - too tired and busy to post references. But Google will help you.

As with all these things lots of people have done lots of research and some of it is even good quality.

Ok - had a look at one of my text books, here's the thing about synovial fluid:

And following on the DOMS - here's a bit about what I was referring to with the damage. From this we can look at the mechanisms of what stretching is and then try to link the two together...personally I can't link stretching to repairing muscle damage...

All those that are on the bench or just not willing to accept it - read up about stretching and what it does for the body (not in simple terms) and try to work it out for yourself. Don't just accept what you believe if you can't describe the mechanics of it (well that's my philosophy anyway).

 

[Reidy36]

And you're sure you would have been in pain if you didn't stretch? Seems like a simple question but think about it, if we weighed everything up, I bet there would be more to this than stretching...

No Phil,
That is why I said, when I run and didn't stretch my legs would be very sore the next day.
Stretching after running has enabled me to be able to run again sooner.
There maybe some science behind it, and what I am doing may go against what the egg heads say, but I don't know a scientific way to put it.
If you have some magic to prove me wrong then feel free, but I have ben doing alot of running training for the duathlon and know the warm down/stretching has helped my recovery.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Just incase you haven't understood what I have posted a few times.
When I didn't stretch off after a run, I would be sore the next day.
If I stretched, there maybe some soreness, but I would be able to run.
Big difference in what I could do.

 

[Phil Young]

No Phil,
That is why I said, when I run and didn't stretch my legs would be very sore the next day.
Stretching after running has enabled me to be able to run again sooner.
There maybe some science behind it, and what I am doing may go against what the egg heads say, but I don't know a scientific way to put it.
If you have some magic to prove me wrong then feel free, but I have ben doing alot of running training for the duathlon and know the warm down/stretching has helped my recovery.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Just incase you haven't understood what I have posted a few times.
When I didn't stretch off after a run, I would be sore the next day.
If I stretched, there maybe some soreness, but I would be able to run.
Big difference in what I could do.

I understand completely, I just can't see how it's not a placebo effect...

I'm only supplying theoretical knowledge - it could be a good discussion if we explored it a bit, examples and details etc...

 

[JonathanRyan]

Ok - had a look at one of my text books, here's the thing about synovial fluid:

OK. That's what synovial fluid is.......... Was there another more relevant part that got cut off in the screen grab?

I'm not sure of the date of your textbooks, but research in these areas is developing pretty fast. One of the real problems is that if nobody knows exactly what causes it, it's very hard to create control groups, especially when one experiment will affect the results of future ones. And of course the same person can't (for example) both stretch or not stretch for the same workout on the same day. Or take a sauna afterwards and not.

Anyway, off to the shed to do some crunchy lever pullups, Warrior 3 curls and mule kick burpees

Maybe we should have a different thread for all the sciency stuff.

 

[Phil Young]

Maybe we should have a different thread for all the sciency stuff.

Remember Jon - you told me to go look it up and I did and I did so because I thought; "ok, I'm pretty sure I'm correct on this but let me look into this anyway" - now when I do provide something, it's age is questioned and then disregarded as "sciency stuff for another thread"...

Come on mate - if you don't believe what I'm saying that's your privilege but it seems you're arguing something you can't even explain...??

 

[andya700]

No Phil,
That is why I said, when I run and didn't stretch my legs would be very sore the next day.
Stretching after running has enabled me to be able to run again sooner.
There maybe some science behind it, and what I am doing may go against what the egg heads say, but I don't know a scientific way to put it.

I used to find exactly the same thing, when I was running (around 55 miles per week) in the late eighties/early nineties. When I got back into cycle racing in the mid nineties, we were lucky to have a guy with us who worked at the Australian Institute of Sport (he used to belong to our club before he left for Oz), and he used to instil into everyone, the importance of diet, hydration, warming up and cooling down, and stretching both before and after events.
When Graeme Obree broke the cycling World hour record in 1993, he failed on his first attempt, but then broke the record the next day. At the time, he put it down to his extraordinary hydration and stretching routine which he did during the night.

"To stop his aching body seizing up, Obree then took the unusual measure of drinking pint upon pint of water so that he had to wake up to go to the lavatory every couple of hours through the night. Each time he got up, he stretched his muscles. On the next weary day, he was up and out with minutes, at the deserted velodrome by 7:55 am and on the track ready to start just five minutes after that. He had barely slept."

If stretching is recommended by top athletes and sports science coaches, then who are we to argue - they are the ones at the pinnacle of sporting achievement.

 

[Phil Young]

Andy, I'm not making the connection between the physiology and advice given - I can't see any reason why stretching would prevent or alleviate DOMS.

I know what you're saying is largely accepted and hence why I understand the reaction thus far, but so far I haven't seen anything apart from advice from whoever they are - PTI's, athlete coaches...for me this isn't good enough, I want to know the technicalities behind this age old advice.

In the case above, was it down to waking up and stretching, or could it be that his mindset was so confident, he was able to recruit more muscle fibres and thus produce more energy output??

 

[Russ77]

I've stepped away from the whole Insanity programme now, was finding the hour long workouts hard to fit in.

I've recently acquired Insanity "Fast & Furious" (20 mins) and Focus T25, the later following a similar pattern to the Insanity programme but each workout is a very intense 25 minutes.

So far this week I've done an Insanity Max interval workout, Fast & Furious and T25 Alpha Cardio.

My plan is to chop & change so I don't get bored with any one workout and also vary the intensity and type of workout. Haven't done any kind of training for 2 weeks prior to Monday and last week I was eating like a complete b*****d (not entirely my fault though).

Going to Centre Parcs in 3 weeks so I need to drop around 7lb so Green Peace don't invade the place and try and puch me back in the swimming pool

 

[Reidy36]

I understand completely, I just can't see how it's not a placebo effect...

I'm only supplying theoretical knowledge - it could be a good discussion if we explored it a bit, examples and details etc...

Ok Phil you win. You obviously know how my body has reacted without stretching and with stretching.
The stretching is just a placebo effect and the stretching itself does nothing for my body and although I am able to exercise the next day after stretching, it is all in my mind.
(Does anyone have a bangs head against brick wall icon here).
I wish I was able to give you some scientific results as you may believe me then.

 

[Russ77]

:bang:

Ok Phil you win. You obviously know how my body has reacted without stretching and with stretching.
The stretching is just a placebo effect and the stretching itself does nothing for my body and although I am able to exercise the next day after stretching, it is all in my mind.
(Does anyone have a bangs head against brick wall icon here).
I wish I was able to give you some scientific results as you may believe me then.

This one :bang:

 

[Phil Young]

Ok Phil you win. You obviously know how my body has reacted without stretching and with stretching.
The stretching is just a placebo effect and the stretching itself does nothing for my body and although I am able to exercise the next day after stretching, it is all in my mind.
(Does anyone have a bangs head against brick wall icon here).
I wish I was able to give you some scientific results as you may believe me then.

Why are you going off in a huff just because I don't 'believe' you?

Can't you see - I don't see the scientific connection between stretching and DOMS. I welcome some knowledge that goes beyond mine so these beliefs can be straightened out but as it stands at the moment, I can't see how and have offered alternative angles that perhaps wasn't considered.

No need to go off in a huff about it - I'm supposed to be the one with the scientific knowledge and you don't see me banging my head anywhere.

 

[JonathanRyan]

Remember Jon - you told me to go look it up and I did and I did so because I thought; "ok, I'm pretty sure I'm correct on this but let me look into this anyway" - now when I do provide something, it's age is questioned and then disregarded as "sciency stuff for another thread"...

That's not what I think happened. But whatevs

I'm too chilled to argue because I've just had a lovely stretch.

 

[Phil Young]

Consider this...

Everyday I see people who are in such a huge belief that because they started exercising, they have lost so much weight...

I ask them, have you changed your nutrition??

They always say yes and explain the huge drops in portion sizes... yet they still believe blindly that it's the exercise.

 

[big soft moose]

well I stopped exercising when injured without changing my nutrition and I gained weight , so it may not be that simple.

 

[JonathanRyan]

well I stopped exercising when injured without changing my nutrition and I gained weight , so it may not be that simple.

[Was trying to link to a pic of Sir Steve Redgrave but the linking doesn't work unless I hot link. Let's just say he no longer seems to be at his rowing weight.]

 

[Houston1863]

I'm 5'10 and currently 13st 5lb

12st - 12st 4lb my target for xmas

That's eminently doable Dan. Go for it

I've ditched 42.1 lbs since the tail end of August last year and targeting another 8-10 and then hopefully keep it there. The bulk of my XS stuff ( the first 2 stone )came off in the first three months or thereabouts. The last 14 lbs has taken longer but I'm happy with progress currently and have been steadily inching away at it again over the past month. It was a combination of exercise and eating less or eating earlier.

 

[Reidy36]

Why are you going off in a huff just because I don't 'believe' you?

Can't you see - I don't see the scientific connection between stretching and DOMS. I welcome some knowledge that goes beyond mine so these beliefs can be straightened out but as it stands at the moment, I can't see how and have offered alternative angles that perhaps wasn't considered.

No need to go off in a huff about it - I'm supposed to be the one with the scientific knowledge and you don't see me banging my head anywhere.

I am banging my head Phil because I know what works for me.

As I am now at my PC instead of phone I will post more.

Before I start, yes I agree I shouldn't be in tatters after a run, however this is me getting back into it after a break due to slipped discs and lazyarseitis.

Even my first runs of 20 mins would hurt, and after finishing the run I would just walk straight home. Later that evening, my legs would start to seize up and the next morning I would laugh at myself due to how stupid I looked walking.

Not long after starting the running, I went on a course where we were instructed by both police and military fitness instructors. During this time we were shown the new ways of warming up and cooling down.

Now if I remember this correctly, we were told that a good warm down/stretch is vital as it helps remove the lactic acid from the muscles, allowing you to carry on training faster than if you didn't warm down.

My post run warm down/stretch takes between 10-20 minutes (a little excessive in time, but it works for me), this involves walking whilst doing all upper body stretches, holding the stretch for 20 seconds, then a little harder for another 10 seconds for (bloody hell can't remember what they called it, but to aaarrgggghh) anyway after doing the upper body stuff, i go into the specific leg stretches (30 seconds each leg as above).

At the end of this session, I can walk easier (take into account
I have run up to 17km) and after stopping the running my legs do feel tired, after the stretches there is a recognised improvement.

I would love to be a guinea pig for you and run again with no stretching after then doing it with a stretch but having seen the difference, I no longer run and just stop, there is always some stretch related post run exercise.

Every one of us is different, and although Science can tell us the basics, it can't say that man A will react in the same way as man B (wish it was that simple).

Clear as mud la?

 

[Phil Young]

Sorry...I'm afraid you were misinformed.

Lactic acid occurs because we are exercising at a leave where we use more oxygen than we can deliver and as a result, lactic acid cannot be cleared and you get the burning sensation that we all know and love

The only thing we can do to improve our lactic acid build up to is increase our oxygen capacity and delivery and it clears as we lower intensity and oxygen is more readily available and utilized.

Don't take my work for that - just google it.

A lot of people will believe that before accepting the truth about oxygen and it being a byproduct of oxygen debt...perhaps, just maybe... stretching and DOMS could be the same?!?

*Edit* - the advanced stretch they taught you was called proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation (PNF) and involved working with muscle spindles to allow for more range of motion - still nothing to do with muscle repair.

*Further edit* - sorry, I obviously didn't read it thoroughly...

I'm going to be simple here;

Are you telling me, you started running and you ached, and after doing a few runs (and adding stretches) you now don't ache?

 

[Reidy36]

Sorry...I'm afraid you were misinformed.

Lactic acid occurs because we are exercising at a leave where we use more oxygen than we can deliver and as a result, lactic acid cannot be cleared and you get the burning sensation that we all know and love

The only thing we can do to improve our lactic acid build up to is increase our oxygen capacity and delivery and it clears as we lower intensity and oxygen is more readily available and utilized.

Don't take my work for that - just google it.

A lot of people will believe that before accepting the truth about oxygen and it being a byproduct of oxygen debt...perhaps, just maybe... stretching and DOMS could be the same?!?

*Edit* - the advanced stretch they taught you was called proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation (PNF) and involved working with muscle spindles to allow for more range of motion - still nothing to do with muscle repair.

*Further edit* - sorry, I obviously didn't read it thoroughly...

I'm going to be simple here;

Are you telling me, you started running and you ached, and after doing a few runs (and adding stretches) you now don't ache?

Phil,

I have no doubt you are right, these were military and police PTI's we are talking about, and they normally deal with people that do exactly as they say....lol

I understand that Lactic acid build up is caused due to not having enough oxygen and the way to improve how you deal with it is by training close to your Lactic threshold.

Are you telling me, you started running and you ached, and after doing a few runs (and adding stretches) you now don't ache?

Ok, now for the run thing.

When i first started back running my legs would ache after the run. I would then just walk home (a few mins walk as i had a designated finish point for all runs), and jump in the bath (I tried both hot and cold water). It would take a few hours normally, and then i would feel it.

After doing the course, at the end of my run i would do the warm down/stretching. Yes my legs still had a little ache, but this was no where near as bad as when i didn't stretch. I would even be hobbling after the run whilst doing the upper body stretches, after doing the leg stretches, i was more mobile (a lot more mobile to the point where at times i thought, shall i do another little run).

On most occasions after the runs, i would put on a pair of compression tights, and normally sleep in them.

*Edit* - the advanced stretch they taught you was called proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation (PNF) and involved working with muscle spindles to allow for more range of motion - still nothing to do with muscle repair

That's the badger, more range of motion...thank you.

 

[Phil Young]

Phil,

I have no doubt you are right, these were military and police PTI's we are talking about, and they normally deal with people that do exactly as they say....lol

I understand that Lactic acid build up is caused due to not having enough oxygen and the way to improve how you deal with it is by training close to your Lactic threshold.

Are you telling me, you started running and you ached, and after doing a few runs (and adding stretches) you now don't ache?

Ok, now for the run thing.

When i first started back running my legs would ache after the run. I would then just walk home (a few mins walk as i had a designated finish point for all runs), and jump in the bath (I tried both hot and cold water). It would take a few hours normally, and then i would feel it.

After doing the course, at the end of my run i would do the warm down/stretching. Yes my legs still had a little ache, but this was no where near as bad as when i didn't stretch. I would even be hobbling after the run whilst doing the upper body stretches, after doing the leg stretches, i was more mobile (a lot more mobile to the point where at times i thought, shall i do another little run).

On most occasions after the runs, i would put on a pair of compression tights, and normally sleep in them.

*Edit* - the advanced stretch they taught you was called proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation (PNF) and involved working with muscle spindles to allow for more range of motion - still nothing to do with muscle repair

That's the badger, more range of motion...thank you.

So I think the answer to your case, as with most people, is that as you train and recover, the amount of force you can take without getting DOMS is going to be greater. The stretching is just a placebo effect but really, you are adapting to the runs - there isn't any connection between stretching and DOMS.

 

[Reidy36]

So I think the answer to your case, as with most people, is that as you train and recover, the amount of force you can take without getting DOMS is going to be greater. The stretching is just a placebo effect but really, you are adapting to the runs - there isn't any connection between stretching and DOMS.

Well lets just agree to disagree on this one. You can say what you want, but i know how my body has reacted to the stretching.

 

[jacob12_1993]

So I think the answer to your case, as with most people, is that as you train and recover, the amount of force you can take without getting DOMS is going to be greater. The stretching is just a placebo effect but really, you are adapting to the runs - there isn't any connection between stretching and DOMS.

I think it's difficult to use studies in cases like this because as Jonathan states, you can't test the same person with two variables under the exact same conditions and so any studies are never going to be 100% reliable. As far as I can see there is only one research paper from the US that mentions stretching being fairly useless pre/post excercise and it seems to be the one that is mentioned and sited a lot. There are many more papers on the benefits of stretching for flexibility, injury prevention, recovery etc so at the end of the day who is right? :shrug:

 

[Reidy36]

I think it's difficult to use studies in cases like this because as Jonathan states, you can't test the same person with two variables under the exact same conditions and so any studies are never going to be 100% reliable. As far as I can see there is only one research paper from the US that mentions stretching being fairly useless pre/post excercise and it seems to be the one that is mentioned and sited a lot. There are many more papers on the benefits of stretching for flexibility, injury prevention, recovery etc so at the end of the day who is right? :shrug:

Phil is.

 

[Phil Young]

I think it's difficult to use studies in cases like this because as Jonathan states, you can't test the same person with two variables under the exact same conditions and so any studies are never going to be 100% reliable. As far as I can see there is only one research paper from the US that mentions stretching being fairly useless pre/post excercise and it seems to be the one that is mentioned and sited a lot. There are many more papers on the benefits of stretching for flexibility, injury prevention, recovery etc so at the end of the day who is right? :shrug:

Perhaps you can't find anything on it because it's not something that needs to be studied...?

I know it's difficult to hear because it's such a widely used teaching - even most fitness professionals don't know (that's how badly regulated this industry is!) but there shouldn't be a physiological connection between stretching and muscle fibriol repair. I don't even know how it came about because I just can't see the connection between the two - to me, it's really strange that anyone would connect muscle repair with stretching.

Maybe people could study massage vs repair due to it prompting more blood flow but I can't see any connection whatsoever with stretching.

I stand by science and the principles of anatomy and physiology that if anything, stretching would make muscles more sore, not less, but to test things properly you would need a guinea pig willing to not exercise for a while.

End of the day, if you keep training, you will feel less sore as you adapt, just ride it out for a few weeks

 

[JonathanRyan]

Perhaps you can't find anything on it because it's not something that needs to be studied...?

Well somebody just spent valuable research time on whether drunk people think they are more attractive and how come walking with a cup of coffee makes you spill it. It doesn't seem any less valuable to study than that.

http://www.improbable.com/ig/winners/

 

[big soft moose]

not to mention that guy at the university of lagos who has just 'scientifically proved' that gay marriage is impossible

http://www.thisdaylive.com/articles/science-of-gay-marriage/158265/

basically at great length he has 'demonstrated' that magnets don't attract on the same poles , and 'therefore' gay marriage is wrong ... it would be hysterical if it want so sad... apparently this 'ground breaking research' will 'one day earn him a nobel prize'

if they can engage in 'research' like that they can research anything

 

[Reidy36]

Phil I get where you are coming from about stretching post exercise to help develop the muscle ( http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/flexibility/a/aa022102a.htm) and that is the reason I was stretching post exercise.

The by product/freebie/do one get one free offer I got by doing this was the decrease in muscle soreness.

You stated that your body would get used to the pain and to work through it, this is ok if doing the same distance, however if you are always increasing your time/distance your body will be getting used to the previous amount, not what you are currently doing. I did find that as I increased my distance, the distance my body coped with without getting tired increased.

Can you explain how you can go from "walking like a penguin" (I like that explanation) to doing some stretches for muscle growth and the penguin walking improving drastically. This is more than just a placebo effect in my eyes.

 

[Phil Young]

Phil I get where you are coming from about stretching post exercise to help develop the muscle ( http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/flexibility/a/aa022102a.htm) and that is the reason I was stretching post exercise.

The by product/freebie/do one get one free offer I got by doing this was the decrease in muscle soreness.

You stated that your body would get used to the pain and to work through it, this is ok if doing the same distance, however if you are always increasing your time/distance your body will be getting used to the previous amount, not what you are currently doing. I did find that as I increased my distance, the distance my body coped with without getting tired increased.

Can you explain how you can go from "walking like a penguin" (I like that explanation) to doing some stretches for muscle growth and the penguin walking improving drastically. This is more than just a placebo effect in my eyes.

I can keep saying this and you can ask me I'm different ways but here it is:

Stretching didn't help you walk less like a pemguin. It's just that you were adapting to the damage caused and subsequently experiencing less damage.

You can think that stretching helps and spend your 20mins post workout but it will do nothing to prevent you feeling sore, it is a placebo effect if it does and is just a coincidence that you stretch after but feel less sore.

You can't find anything to support your belief because there isn't anything - scientifically the two do not connect.

This is how I explain you are able to walk less like a penguin:

You create micro tears in your muscle fibriols as you workout, the more resistance applied to eccentric contraction (lowering or slowing down of a movement) the greater the damage.

As the muscle repairs itself the muscle spindles (a nerve receptor responsible for generating that stretch feeling) acts sooner that it would normally, thereby you feel a stretch sooner than you would and flexibility is impaired.

Your muscle is sore because of the damage and flexibility is impaired due to not wanting to cause any further damage.

In order for the muscle to protect itself from the same damage in future, the cross section of the fiber increases and you are able to withstand a greater force next workout.

The more you train and the harder you make it, the less likely you are to feel sore on less hard workouts.

Also you need to remember that when doing just running, the resistance applied to eccentric or slowing down movements isn't that great - even if you are changing distances and times. The only thing that would drastically change the resistance is running a lot downhill, which incorporates a lot of eccentric contractions to the quadriceps. If you started a resistance training routing including squats etc you would soon bring back Mr penguin.

I challenge you to a tough legs days with all the stretching you want afterwards. You will still be in bits.

You have it in black and white there from people smarter than me, I have also given you a description of stretching vs muscle soreness... to continue believing that stretching helps is your privilege but ultimately, wrong.

 

[Reidy36]

Phil YoungI can keep saying this and you can ask me I'm different ways but here it is:

Stretching didn't help you walk less like a pemguin. It's just that you were adapting to the damage caused and subsequently experiencing less damage.

So from walking like a penguin, it only takes my body twenty minutes to recover? Sweet


You can think that stretching helps and spend your 20mins post workout but it will do nothing to prevent you feeling sore, it is a placebo effect if it does and is just a coincidence that you stretch after but feel less sore.

And that is your opinion as you don't know how my body feels immediately before the post work out warm down and stretch. I know how my body has felt immediately after a hard run and then immediately after doing the warm and stretches, there is a big difference how my legs have been over the space of 20 minutes, you can put it down to my body being able to cope more, but really that fast? Obviously this running in a Superman outfit has been more beneficial than i thought.

You can't find anything to support your belief because there isn't anything - scientifically the two do not connect.


When have a said that i needed to look and find anything to support my belief Phil, you are the one quoting scientific tests.

This is how I explain you are able to walk less like a penguin:

You create micro tears in your muscle fibriols as you workout, the more resistance applied to eccentric contraction (lowering or slowing down of a movement) the greater the damage.

As the muscle repairs itself the muscle spindles (a nerve receptor responsible for generating that stretch feeling) acts sooner that it would normally, thereby you feel a stretch sooner than you would and flexibility is impaired.

Your muscle is sore because of the damage and flexibility is impaired due to not wanting to cause any further damage.

In order for the muscle to protect itself from the same damage in future, the cross section of the fiber increases and you are able to withstand a greater force next workout.

The more you train and the harder you make it, the less likely you are to feel sore on less hard workouts.

Also you need to remember that when doing just running, the resistance applied to eccentric or slowing down movements isn't that great - even if you are changing distances and times. The only thing that would drastically change the resistance is running a lot downhill, which incorporates a lot of eccentric contractions to the quadriceps. If you started a resistance training routing including squats etc you would soon bring back Mr penguin. [/I]

I am not saying that my muscles aren't tearing, i know that :bang::bang:and that is why the stretching is done afterwards to promote the muscle or what ever it is (i am not going to look as i am too bored saying the same crap to you to be honest).

I challenge you to a tough legs days with all the stretching you want afterwards. You will still be in bits.


Arrghhh Are you a Canon user? I never said that i have no pain....praise be to Allah, what i said was if i don't stretch off after, i will be in more pain, that is a given, i am not out to discredit the brainy people, i know how my body reacts, your body will react differently, we are not CLONES


You have it in black and white there from people smarter than me, I have also given you a description of stretching vs muscle soreness... to continue believing that stretching helps is your privilege but ultimately, wrong

I understand that you are looking at this from a science background (i have no idea if this is just reading about it, or doing physical tests on subjects) and i don't know what the exercises etc were that you did, however as far as i am aware, we are all slightly different (or maybe they lied to me at school and i can run as fast as Bolt), and this little X factor that has us all wired slightly differently can mess up all sorts of readings (i once read in a paper that Elvis wasn't actually dead and that he was on the moon, as this was never disproved by others, does it make it true?). As to me being Ultimately wrong as you so say, that is your opinion i am afraid (have you ever thought you maybe wrong? we will have to agree to disagree on this.

I apologise to all others who have had to read all of this. I am not going to comment anymore, Phil obviously knows how my body reacts, so he is ultimately right.

Don't bother doing any post exercise warm downs and stretches, as it makes no difference and is a waste of 20 minutes (wish i had known, could have researched if Elvis actually was seen on Mars, or was it working in Tesco).

 

[Phil Young]

Lol Reidy!!!

It is not my OPINION!!! That is how it is. If you don't like tomato ketchup that's your opinion...but the fact is it's still red.

You are being very ignorant for no apparent reason. You have the reasons you are sore and if you bothered to indulge in a bit of research you would also see the pointless exercise that is your post workout stretch (solely relating that statement to you think it helps with soreness).

I have absolutely no idea why you are trying to argue with me when it's there right in front of you...you're just not taking it in, or selectively reading anyway.

You can't say it's my opinion (or you can, but would be wrong) because it's not - it's the science that is anatomy and physiology!

I generally live by the rule: if I can't explain it, I should accept the possibility that I might be wrong.

I understand that you came into this with an answer to what you thought was correct and are trying to win it over with a strawman argument of how your body feels, but I'm done with this particular debate, you are being extremely ignorant and I don't know why.

 

[Reidy36]

Lol Reidy!!!

It is not my OPINION!!! That is how it is. If you don't like tomato ketchup that's your opinion...but the fact is it's still red.

You are being very ignorant for no apparent reason. You have the reasons you are sore and if you bothered to indulge in a bit of research you would also see the pointless exercise that is your post workout stretch (solely relating that statement to you think it helps with soreness).

I have absolutely no idea why you are trying to argue with me when it's there right in front of you...you're just not taking it in, or selectively reading anyway.

You can't say it's my opinion (or you can, but would be wrong) because it's not - it's the science that is anatomy and physiology!

I generally live by the rule: if I can't explain it, I should accept the possibility that I might be wrong.

I understand that you came into this with an answer to what you thought was correct and are trying to win it over with a strawman argument of how your body feels, but I'm done with this particular debate, you are being extremely ignorant and I don't know why.

With regards to your last paragraph, Phil that is how my body felt after doing the stretching, do i know why.....NO, do i wish i knew why....Yes i bloody do now, as because i can't explain it, it obviously isn't happening. Please explain to me, how i am wrong in how my body has reacted to the stretching....please, please, please

I am not being ignorant to the fact at all. All i am saying is that I noticed a difference, yet you are telling me it's not, but i was there at the time.

Would anybody on the sidelines reading this, care to comment. My legs felt a change after the warm down, what is ignorant about that?

 

[ChrisJ_SLH]

With regards to your last paragraph, Phil that is how my body felt after doing the stretching, do i know why.....NO, do i wish i knew why....Yes i bloody do now, as because i can't explain it, it obviously isn't happening. Please explain to me, how i am wrong in how my body has reacted to the stretching....please, please, please

I am not being ignorant to the fact at all. All i am saying is that I noticed a difference, yet you are telling me it's not, but i was there at the time.

Would anybody on the sidelines reading this, care to comment. My legs felt a change after the warm down, what is ignorant about that?

I stretch as part of cool-down after a run and on rest days and while it probably doesn't help muscle recovery per se it definitely stops me tightening up and prevents what me and the wife refer to as 'cockney walkabout'.

After advice for a physio I avoid deep stretches when cold before a run in favour of dynamic warm-up.

 

[Phil Young]

The reason why anyone would feel less tight is because they are engaging those muscle spindles and promoting slightly more flexibility.

If the muscle has sustained damage during a workout, this will have little effect after a couple of hours max.

If you think it is more effective, I would suggest the damage wasn't that great to give a delayed muscle soreness anyway.

In other words, nothing will help the soreness over the proceeding days (apart from applied heat after a workout which will speed up repair time).

Hope that helps give some clarity.