The Fitness thread

big soft moose said:
I'd agree if you were running on a fast - but if you ate a slow release carb based meal the night before (whole wheat pasta, rice, spuds etc) then slept for maybe 7 hours you aren't fasted - your body has had time to digest the food from the night before and carb up your blood , so theres no need for additional supplement prior to exercise

Also I know from experience that I can (or at least could until I knacked my ankle) run a five to seven mile fartlek inspired course , alternating jogging and sprinting flat out.. which did substantially improve my fitness

I was working toward running the 20 mile Grizzly - one of the three hardest races in the uk (the other two being the running iron and the fan dance - both of which I competed in when I was younger) , unfortunately I managed to turn my ankle the wrong way and its not been the same since.
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There's a lot of stuff to take into consideration but the bottom line is (and it's not my opinion) without having glycogen readily available, you will not be able to exercise at >80% maximum heart rate for long. You will be forced to slow down in order to keep a supply of energy to the brain.

I'd need to do a proper analysis and do the maths of how much was eaten before bed, when the exercise is and for how long etc before giving a conclusive answer but what I can say is as above - without stored carbs, fitness improvements are very limited.
 
Designed by evolution.

What I'd really like to know are the rates of foot/ankle injury in those areas of the world where there is no such thing as footwear. There are tribes in various parts of the world from which we have learnt that the now textbook blood pressure is higher than it should be. Do you know if anyone has looked at the issue of footwear?

My own impression is that had we never had shoes, we may well have had fewer foot/ankle problems because we would have learnt to walk and run barefooted at a young age.
 
omens said:
Designed by evolution.

What I'd really like to know are the rates of foot/ankle injury in those areas of the world where there is no such thing as footwear. There are tribes in various parts of the world from which we have learnt that the now textbook blood pressure is higher than it should be. Do you know if anyone has looked at the issue of footwear?

My own impression is that had we never had shoes, we may well have had fewer foot/ankle problems because we would have learnt to walk and run barefooted at a young age.
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I wound strongly contest that opinion.

As I wrote - our gait is how it is, we can't change it, we can only adopt special footwear to work with it. If we didn't know this and take the options to help our biomechanical deficiencies, we would 100% have more injuries.

If somebody has a severe case of over pronation, they need a device in place to correct the alignment of the joints, not try to run on their forefoot to try and fix a problem that isn't fixable.

Reading past the marketing and some of the silly paleo cult literature, it's quite easy to see where the science ends and strange talk begins.
 
But is our gait altered because of modern living/lifestyle? I understand that gait will be limited by the structure of the human body, but isn't this in turn altered by things like shoes? I'm not suggesting that we should all run barefooted, but if humans did go around these days with bare feet, would we still have the foot/ankle problems?

Completely agree that some people have foot alignment problems and sometimes this is genetic, but is there an acquired caused?
 
omens said:
But is our gait altered because of modern living/lifestyle? I understand that gait will be limited by the structure of the human body, but isn't this in turn altered by things like shoes? I'm not suggesting that we should all run barefooted, but if humans did go around these days with bare feet, would we still have the foot/ankle problems?

Completely agree that some people have foot alignment problems and sometimes this is genetic, but is there an acquired caused?
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It is important to have that arch. If we didn't, our knee would not flex in true alignment and would cause degeneration to the meniscus and surrounding cartilage.

If anything, "our ancestors" probably had more injuries than we do now. Assuming we have evolved from a flat foot.
 
jacob12_1993 said:
Fitness test and I realise that it's meant to be the easiest one...
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It's actually not.

Joking apart, the fitness test takes a lot out of you - especially when you do it later in the programme because you work so hard on it. But it's well worth doing. I bet that right now you think you will never beat those numbers. But you will. Every time you take it. Probably on every one (thought he globe jumps are hard to get a high number on).

Plyo today. You're going to love it. Top tip: buy some sweatbands. They may make you look like an 80s tennis player but at least you'll be able to see. In month 2 when I hit max workout + abs I was using 3 of them per day.
 
JonathanRyan said:
It's actually not.

Joking apart, the fitness test takes a lot out of you - especially when you do it later in the programme because you work so hard on it. But it's well worth doing. I bet that right now you think you will never beat those numbers. But you will. Every time you take it. Probably on every one (thought he globe jumps are hard to get a high number on).

Plyo today. You're going to love it. Top tip: buy some sweatbands. They may make you look like an 80s tennis player but at least you'll be able to see. In month 2 when I hit max workout + abs I was using 3 of them per day.
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Well I thought I was sore yesterday...then I woke up today! I feel like there is definite room for improvement on the fitness test as it was my cardio letting me down most of the way and that will improve no end I'm sure of it.

Already thinking about sweatbands after not being able to see for half of the fitness test from sweat pouring into my eyes!
 
JonathanRyan said:
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Been there.....

This morning I was doing pressup one arm balances on med balls. And surprisingly few pullups.

How much did Plyo hurt?
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It wasn't as bad as I thought because my legs were in bits at the start. Kept up for about 40 of the 45 mins which I was happy with :thumbs: I did however find sweat glands which I never knew I had :lol:
 
Ooo 40 mins ain't so bad for a first attempt :D

Easiest one of the week mind.....
 
JonathanRyan said:
Ooo 40 mins ain't so bad for a first attempt :D Easiest one of the week mind.....
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Considering my last bit of formal exercise was 2 years ago I was pretty happy, just lost the arm strength on the final sets of push-ups and ski thingys.

Weirdly looking forward to today even though my legs are more destroyed than they were yesterday!
 
jacob12_1993 said:
Day 3 = Death by power and resistance
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Is it rest day yet?

I currently get 2 rest days a week :D

Mind you "rest day" = an hour of painful foam rolling and balance drills. But since that a rest from doing this, I don't mind.

[YOUTUBE]KvT4qdvta_k[/YOUTUBE]
 
omens said:
Designed by evolution.

What I'd really like to know are the rates of foot/ankle injury in those areas of the world where there is no such thing as footwear. There are tribes in various parts of the world from which we have learnt that the now textbook blood pressure is higher than it should be. Do you know if anyone has looked at the issue of footwear?

My own impression is that had we never had shoes, we may well have had fewer foot/ankle problems because we would have learnt to walk and run barefooted at a young age.
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I think at least part of the issue is that in those areas of the world where there is no such thing as footwear there is probably also no modern surfaces like tarmac and concrete.

Issues like pronation will still exist but will be less of a problem as the foot will be landing on a less hard and less even surface rather than a uniform hard surface.

Most (admittedly not all) trail running shoes are what you would class as 'Neutral' as there is little point in trying to correct a pronation problem on an unpredictable uneven surface. Our physio at work explained that it is more the constant repetitive roll resulting from nice flat roads that needs correction.

Personally, I have made a concious effort to transition from heel striking to mid-foot striking over the last year. Less injuries so far (touch wood) and I can get away with a lighter shoe with less cushioning. With my weight , age and running pattern I would be asking for trouble by trying to get away with a minimalist shoe.
 
Ultimately it comes down to doing the same thing too much and parts of the body getting stronger than its antagonist.

For this reason I do not recommen using or doing anything exclusively. A runner that only runs will get an injury but this is not down to footwear, which will play a vital role. It is ultimately going to be an overuse of certain parts of the anatomy resulting in weakness elsewhere.

Switching to a barefoot shoot will only shift the emphasis of shock absorption, which will be good, but now you are repetitively training parts that weren't as strong before - in time this will give problems too.

The best thing people can do to avoid overuse injuries will be to have a shoe that has a big heel drop, and a minimalist shoe. Use those in collaboration with each other, not in competition.

Other things will be to have a resistance programme that targets muscles generally weakened through running.

It sounds like a lot of work but it isn't. You take 3 days of training, one in a heel strike shoe, the other in a forefoot one, the third day you do weights at the gym but in a way that is aimed at strengthening select muscles at select parts of their contraction.

By doing this, performance will increase, risk of injury will come down and the individual will be fitter all round.

The thing to remember is not to snob one trainer over another because they both have their merits and reasons for running in. Each will give it's problems and the other will most likely 'fix' the issue caused by the trainer in question. It's not rocket science - forefoot running causes overuse to the achilles tendon. This causes tendinitis.

Heel striking can cause overuse to the tendon of the tibiallis anterior - this can cause shin splints.

The heel striking shoe will place less strain on the achillies tendon and the forefoot shoe, less on the TA tendon.

If one is smart, they will run in both types of shoe :)

Most of us know "of you train chest, you need to train back", so why do we not apply the same principles to running and always choose one type of shoe for every day...?
 
JonathanRyan said:
Is it rest day yet? I currently get 2 rest days a week :D Mind you "rest day" = an hour of painful foam rolling and balance drills. But since that a rest from doing this, I don't mind. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvT4qdvta_k">YouTube Link</a>
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One more day to go, today was pure cardio and that was tough...
 
jacob12_1993 said:
Quick question: if I'm working out and finding that it's achey muscles from the day before that is stopping me rather than my cardio limit is there anything I can do about this to help alleviate or reduce the problem?
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Muscle soreness should ease as you warm up but if its really uncomfortable then you just need to ride it out.

The only thing you can do is to have a sauna / steam straight after the session that causes the soreness but once it sets in, just give it time.
 
jacob12_1993 said:
Quick question: if I'm working out and finding that it's achey muscles from the day before that is stopping me rather than my cardio limit is there anything I can do about this to help alleviate or reduce the problem?
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Make sure you stretch both after the workout and before the next one. IMO Insanity doesn't have enough stretching. Find a good stretch video on YouTube and work through that because otherwise you will get bored and skimp on it ;)

If you want the ultimate in stretching then get yourself a foam roller (amazingly cheap at TK Maxx) and spend 10 mins with this after your workout.

Lots of people find that drinking chocolate milk right after a workout reduce muscle soreness. It's also yummy. However, there's another theory that the complete avoidance of dairy works even better (though the chocolate milk thing has a lot more research behind it).

Those are all for prevention. Once you actually have DOMS there's not a lot you can do (though some people do take ibuprofen - really that's a long way from medical advice). Eat right, stretch and roll. Most people find it stops happening after a week or two.

Rest days are there for a reason ;)

BTW one day you will love Pure Cardio.
 
I knew someone would say stretching but it's a common mistake.

DOMS is caused by eccentric resistance (stretching a muscle under tension - for example, the downward phase in a bicep curl). Contrary to popular belief, stretching will not alleviate the soreness caused by training, which is a microscopic tear in the muscle cells and here's why...

It is actually the stretch that caused the soreness in the first place! (albeit under a lot more tension than just a normal stretch). For an untrained individual, a session of yoga will cause DOMS in itself.

The only thing that is going to help will be heat, which brings blood to the muscles and skin allowing for faster healing times.

If anything, stretching will make it worse, not better.
 
You realise I meant for prevention, right?

One of the criticisms of Insanity is that it starts at 60 miles an hour, then does a small amount of stretching, then ramps up to about 90. There are good reasons for doing the stretching when warm, but IMO you want some gentle stretching before the warmup.
 
JonathanRyan said:
You realise I meant for prevention, right?

One of the criticisms of Insanity is that it starts at 60 miles an hour, then does a small amount of stretching, then ramps up to about 90. There are good reasons for doing the stretching when warm, but IMO you want some gentle stretching before the warmup.
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Nope. Nothing prevents DOMS (apart from not doing what will cause it).

Mobility stuff to get the nerve endings "loose" are important for injury prevention but not stretching as such.

For example - before a session, something like 3-5mins on the cross trainer or do a few mins of gentle dynamic movements will prepare the body for exercise and allow for greater flexibility. This will allow me to kick higher for example but won't do anything for soreness, if you will get sore afterwards.

If I went in the sauna afterwards, I might not get sore and if I do, it will be reduced.
 
^^^+1

You can't prevent DOMs unless either you don't do the exercise or you do it with such limited effort/weight that it doesn't cause microtears and hence growth.

I would just ride it out and wear it as a badge/reminder that you did a workout properly. I certainly wouldn't advise ibuprofen unless it was muscular injury rather than DOMS.
 
omens said:
I certainly wouldn't advise ibuprofen unless it was muscular injury rather than DOMS.
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Neither would I. But there's been some serious research into the use of NSAIDs in treating DOMS. Most evidence seems to suggest they work. (And actually that's not surprising since it's basically inflammation). If you're the kind of person who thinks taking an aspirin a day is good for you (and that's a VERY popular belief backed up with a bunch of science) then you might want to consider doing the same for DOMS.

But then, I can't say I've ever really had it anyway ;)
 
JonathanRyan said:
Neither would I. But there's been some serious research into the use of NSAIDs in treating DOMS. Most evidence seems to suggest they work. (And actually that's not surprising since it's basically inflammation). If you're the kind of person who thinks taking an aspirin a day is good for you (and that's a VERY popular belief backed up with a bunch of science) then you might want to consider doing the same for DOMS.

But then, I can't say I've ever really had it anyway ;)
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Jon, DOMS is a micro-tear in the muscle fibriols, it's not inflammation.

Aspirin can be argued due to its anti-coagulate properties but for DOMS, there is nothing and if there was, we would know about it and I would definitely know about it :)
 
First we though it was lactic acid, then we thought it was micro tears. Latest research is suggesting it's the body's response to these micro tears. Basically as your body tries to repair them they become inflamed.

Next week we'll probably find out it's pixies.
 
JonathanRyan said:
First we though it was lactic acid, then we thought it was micro tears. Latest research is suggesting it's the body's response to these micro tears. Basically as your body tries to repair them they become inflamed.

Next week we'll probably find out it's pixies.
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I don't think lactic acid was ever a serious consideration, we have known for a long long time that lactic acid clears as oxygen is more abundant. As far as I'm aware it's always been about micro-tears and as with all tissue damage, pain is a response to this.

We get a stretch reflex sooner than normal as the muscle nerves are preventing further damage.

Anywho, people will continue to stretch to "stop the soreness", and those people will continue to waste their time doing so - the belief is so strong on this one, I even get clients trying to tell me why we need to stretch after a workout <<covers face with one hand>>
 
JonathanRyan said:
If you're the kind of person who thinks taking an aspirin a day is good for you (and that's a VERY popular belief backed up with a bunch of science) then you might want to consider doing the same for DOMS.
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The evidence for aspirin is not as strong as you believe. There's a new (weak) link to prevention of colorectal cancer but this is largely in the elderly population.

The evidence of aspirin for primary prevention for cardiovascular disease means it is no longer recommended routinely as it once was. Of a 1000 people who take aspirin, it will stop 3 heart attacks and it will give 4 GI bleeds.
 
omens said:
The evidence for aspirin is not as strong as you believe.
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I don't believe it's strong at all. I believe a lot of people think it's good for them. I also believe there's a lot of money at stake in perpetuating that belief.
 
Thanks for the advice guys. I think as with most research there are so many conflicting opinions that in the end nobody really knows the exact answer. You only have to search heat and DOMS to realise how many articles state it won't help and how many state its the greatest thing for it.

Anyway week 1 of Insanity is done, my legs are also done but tomorrow is a rest day so I'm going to rest and do a bit of stretching as my hamstring muscles in my legs are still really tight since giving up cycling two years ago.
 
TBH the only thing I've found helps is massage - this is something I might do myself and it helps. Marginally.
 
Phil Young said:
I don't think lactic acid was ever a serious consideration, we have known for a long long time that lactic acid clears as oxygen is more abundant. As far as I'm aware it's always been about micro-tears and as with all tissue damage, pain is a response to this.

We get a stretch reflex sooner than normal as the muscle nerves are preventing further damage.

Anywho, people will continue to stretch to "stop the soreness", and those people will continue to waste their time doing so - the belief is so strong on this one, I even get clients trying to tell me why we need to stretch after a workout <<covers face with one hand>>
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After a hard run my legs sometimes feel in bits, spending 15-20 minutes stretching and bringing HR down to a normal level helps. I never used.to do a proper post training stretch program and would suffer a little, got shown one that is now a standard police one and no issues, yes it takes longer than normal but a big difference pre/post stretch.
 
Reidy36 said:
After a hard run my legs sometimes feel in bits, spending 15-20 minutes stretching and bringing HR down to a normal level helps. I never used.to do a proper post training stretch program and would suffer a little, got shown one that is now a standard police one and no issues, yes it takes longer than normal but a big difference pre/post stretch.
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Tbh, for a runner that indulges in the exercise often, runs shouldn't be making you 'in bits', there's not enough unusual resistance to cause damage...I would suggest that it would probably be the fact that perhaps you're more used to running at or around that distance / intensity / gradient etc.

The sole reason for stretching is a neurological one - by stretching a muscle we are "training" nerve endings called muscle spindles to 'allow' more range. We don't get any physical changes in the muscle and there's not even much gained from doing a static stretch on a neurological level - much better for flexibility to do something dynamic or an advanced form of stretching but again, we are talking about nervous training, not making a muscle longer, reducing lactic acid, reducing 'inflammation'etc...I'm racking my brain here and can't think of any reason to stretch that doesn't come back to flexibility.

And here's some food for thought...

Where are you sore after a workout? It's ALWAYS where you would normally feel a stretch, right? The reason for this is that muscle spindles are overworking to stop any further injury whilst the muscle repairs and as such you get that stretch feeling sooner than usual. Hence the soreness is about damage, and that damage comes from eccentric (lowering part of a movement) resistance.

Perhaps I'm wrong though, and somebody could back up what I'm calling a belief, in describing how stretching helps alleviate muscle soreness??
 
Phil Young said:
Tbh, for a runner that indulges in the exercise often, runs shouldn't be making you 'in bits', there's not enough unusual resistance to cause damage...I would suggest that it would probably be the fact that perhaps you're more used to running at or around that distance / intensity / gradient etc.

The sole reason for stretching is a neurological one - by stretching a muscle we are "training" nerve endings called muscle spindles to 'allow' more range. We don't get any physical changes in the muscle and there's not even much gained from doing a static stretch on a neurological level - much better for flexibility to do something dynamic or an advanced form of stretching but again, we are talking about nervous training, not making a muscle longer, reducing lactic acid, reducing 'inflammation'etc...I'm racking my brain here and can't think of any reason to stretch that doesn't come back to flexibility.

And here's some food for thought...

Where are you sore after a workout? It's ALWAYS where you would normally feel a stretch, right? The reason for this is that muscle spindles are overworking to stop any further injury whilst the muscle repairs and as such you get that stretch feeling sooner than usual. Hence the soreness is about damage, and that damage comes from eccentric (lowering part of a movement) resistance.

Perhaps I'm wrong though, and somebody could back up what I'm calling a belief, in describing how stretching helps alleviate muscle soreness??
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Think you need to go and tell the military PTI's then as the warm up/down that I am doing was taught by them. All I know is that after a run, if I didnt do anything my legs would be really stiff and I would struggle, with stretching the next day is alot easier and I have even considered going for a run again.

I have no science behind me, just what my body tells me.
 
Reidy36 said:
Think you need to go and tell the military PTI's then as the warm up/down that I am doing was taught by them. All I know is that after a run, if I didnt do anything my legs would be really stiff and I would struggle, with stretching the next day is alot easier and I have even considered going for a run again.

I have no science behind me, just what my body tells me.
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I understand the whole thing of being taught something and having belief in what you've been taught, and it doesn't effect me what you believe...

The above is correct but if you wish to disregard that information it is totally your privilege to do so.
 
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