The essential Flip-Out, articulating screen...Discussion.

[acs]

Fair enough, I wouldn't, but that wasn't my point. My point was that if these features weren't included, (the D700 is a perfect example) it wouldn't stop people buying the camera. If they were "essential" then Nikon wouldn't sell any D700s...

Narrr, you just buy the angle finder for an extra £226

There are certainly times when LiveView on a fold-out screen would be very useful ...far more than an angled finder. Having said that, I'd agree that the lack of one wouldn't stop me buying a particular model.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

but how many more would they sell if it did?

That's the question, I'd wager it would be "none"

I bet that the D700 replacement has both a flip-screen & video ...

I'm sure it will too, but only because such things are expected, a bit like phones having video etc. Took me ages to find a phone that was just a phone

 

[freecom2]

My point was that if these features weren't included, (the D700 is a perfect example)

I think this is mostly an irrelevant point given that video had not been a viable feature during the time of development (it was on the D90, but it's easier to do on an APS-C sensor) of the D700, so it wasn't a case of 'should we include it or not' for Nikon. The D700 went past it's 3rd birthday last month, after all...

The test of whether it's a "feature" or a "gimmick" is to ask yourself, "if this wasn't present would it have stopped me buying the camera?"

For you, the lack of those features didn't stop you buying a camera, and for me it would be the same as well, but you seem to assume that other people share the same photographic interests and feature lists, which is obviously not the case - and many people will have bought the 5dmkII specifically for it's video capabilities, so for those people the answer would have been a resounding YES to your question.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

For you, the lack of those features didn't stop you buying a camera, and for me it would be the same as well, but you seem to assume that other people share the same photographic interests and feature lists, which is obviously not the case - and many people will have bought the 5dmkII specifically for it's video capabilities, so for those people the answer would have been a resounding YES to your question.

I'm sure some people will have bought a 5DII specifically for the video feature, but to be honest how many as a percentage of total buyers, 1-2%?

My point was that, when say, the 5DII was launched, had it not been video equipped, would the majority of potential buyers have gone elsewhere,to say the first model down the Canon range that did have video or to Nikon?

Somehow I doubt it, ergo it's just a "gimmick"

 

[Vertigo1]

I think its one of those things that you dont need or use for 99% of the time, but that 1 time you do need/use it, it is brilliant.

Agreed - whilst I can imagine it's seriously useful for video work and when trying to take a shot at an awkward angle when you can't look through the viewfinder easily, personally neither of those scenarios really apply to me so I don't miss it.

 

[Splog]

I'm sure some people will have bought a 5DII specifically for the video feature, but to be honest how many as a percentage of total buyers, 1-2%?

My point was that, when say, the 5DII was launched, had it not been video equipped, would the majority of potential buyers have gone elsewhere,to say the first model down the Canon range that did have video or to Nikon?

Somehow I doubt it, ergo it's just a "gimmick"

I disagree. A gimmick is a solution without a problem.

Combining two cameras into one solves a problem.

 

[squishy]

I'm sure some people will have bought a 5DII specifically for the video feature, but to be honest how many as a percentage of total buyers, 1-2%?

My point was that, when say, the 5DII was launched, had it not been video equipped, would the majority of potential buyers have gone elsewhere,to say the first model down the Canon range that did have video or to Nikon?

Somehow I doubt it, ergo it's just a "gimmick"

When the 7D was launched, if it hadn't had wireless flash control, would the majority of buyers gone elsewhere? No

Would you then consider wireless flash control a gimmick as well by that definition?

 

[Flash In The Pan]

When the 7D was launched, if it hadn't had wireless flash control, would the majority of buyers gone elsewhere? No

Would you then consider wireless flash control a gimmick as well by that definition?

I'd imagine anyone who was serious about using wireless flash would have defected to Nikon long before the 7D anyway

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I disagree. A gimmick is a solution without a problem.

Combining two cameras into one solves a problem.

So by that reasoning there will have been a migration of video camera owners over to the likes of the 5DII......

 

[squishy]

I'd imagine anyone who was serious about using wireless flash would have defected to Nikon long before the 7D anyway

You're dodging my point that your way of defining a gimmick (if the majority wouldn't look elsewhere if it wasn't included) is somewhat flawed.

I don't think features can be considering gimmicks just because a lot of people won't make serious use of them.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

You're dodging my point that your way of defining a gimmick (if the majority wouldn't look elsewhere if it wasn't included) is somewhat flawed.

I don't think features can be considering gimmicks just because a lot of people won't make serious use of them.

I'd have thought that was a perfect description of a gimmick, something that's been added to a product that "lot of people won't make serious use of "....

In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature.

 

[squishy]

I'd have thought that was a perfect description of a gimmick, something that's been added to a product that "lot of people won't make serious use of "....

But think of it as being there for the sake of the minority rather than for the sake of being a special feature and it's not a gimmick.
IMHO, while there is a measurable segment of the market who will make serious use of it (as there are for both video and articulated screens), then I don't consider it a gimmick

If I buy a camera with an articulated screen, I don't care that it was probably added with special feature value in mind rather than my uses, I'll just be marvelling in how it makes low level photography so much easier on the knees.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

But think of it as being there for the sake of the minority rather than for the sake of being a special feature and it's not a gimmick.
IMHO, while there is a measurable segment of the market who will make serious use of it (as there are for both video and articulated screens), then I don't consider it a gimmick

You think that these big companies develop features "for the sake of the minority"? The only reason it's there is as a USP, in essence just as a marketing.....gimmick.

If, as you claim, there is a "measurable segment of the market who will make serious use of it" then I assume you have data to back that claim up?

 

[heidfirst]

a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries

so when all it's contemporaries have it (& pretty much any DSLR launched recently & from now on will) then it's not a gimmick ...

 

[Flash In The Pan]

so when all it's contemporaries have it (& pretty much any DSLR launched recently & from now on will) then it's not a gimmick ...

That doesn't suddenly make it a worthwhile addition, it's just a case of "me too".

 

[squishy]

You think that these big companies develop features "for the sake of the minority"? The only reason it's there is as a USP, in essence just as a marketing.....gimmick.

If, as you claim, there is a "measurable segment of the market who will make serious use of it" then I assume you have data to back that claim up?

I don't have data, just several trips with wildlife groups photographing insect in low undergrowth and photographing fungi where after 2 hours crawling around, everyone is envying the people who don't have dirt all over their trousers and a sore back because they've got a flippy out screen thing.

Sure you don't need it and I have happily bought a camera without it, but then I don't strictly need all 9 AF points or 6fps, they can just make things a lot easier in some situations.

 

[Splog]

So by that reasoning there will have been a migration of video camera owners over to the likes of the 5DII......

Perhaos not but plenty of videographrers have been using DSLR's . Two cameras in one is a good thing?

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Perhaos not but plenty of videographrers have been using DSLR's . Two cameras in one is a good thing?

The acid test in the case of videographers is how many given the choice between a £2k video camera and a £2k dslr with video will swap to the dslr?

You say "plenty", can you provide figures to show a drop in sales of video cameras that corresponds with a rise in the sale of video-equipped dslrs?

 

[Splog]

The acid test in the case of videographers is how many given the choice between a £2k video camera and a £2k dslr with video will swap to the dslr?

You say "plenty", can you provide figures to show a drop in sales of video cameras that corresponds with a rise in the sale of video-equipped dslrs?

I did say 'perhaps not' but please consider the cost of lenses for pro video cameras against DSLR lenses!

As I said, two cameras in one works.

 

[SussexBlue]

I guess a fair answer is each to their own, in my case I'm disabled and the flip out screen would be of great help to me, hence my interest in the A77, as for the video then yes I don't have to carry 2 cameras lol, my wife now has the A580 and it's a fantastic camera but to small a body for my great mitts

 

[heidfirst]

That doesn't suddenly make it a worthwhile addition, it's just a case of "me too".

no, it's a case of "we can't afford not to".

 

[goldenlight]

In discussions like this people often put forward the argument that a flip screen is just something else to go wrong or even that it could easily break but I wonder how true either of these things actually are?

Has anyone actually had a flip screen break off because of a reason other that serious carelessness?

As for just something else to go wrong, has anyone had a flip screen fail? I've certainly read of fixed screens failing and we could use the same argument against any new feature that gets added like auto focus, flash, focus assist, image stabilisation, sensor cleaning or even the digital as a whole.

I've never heard of one actually breaking off but it must be acknowledged as a weak point on the otherwise bomb-proof E-3. There have been a number of cases of the screen separating into two half because the screws that join them are not fully up to the job. Having said that, they are easily repaired and I've had absolutely no trouble with mine in 3 years. The ability to reverse the screen when not in use actually gives it far better protection than a fixed screen. The screen of the E-5 is much better constructed and unlikely to be a problem. Affording an E-5 is a problem!

 

[goldenlight]

Fair enough, I wouldn't, but that wasn't my point. My point was that if these features weren't included, (the D700 is a perfect example) it wouldn't stop people buying the camera. If they were "essential" then Nikon wouldn't sell any D700s...

Graham, people indulge in different types of photography and work in different ways. I couldn't care less about video but often use the articulated screen on my E-3 and, to me, it has become almost essential. I wouldn't go so far as to say I definitely wouldn't buy a camera without such a screen if the rest of the package was particularly strong for my needs, but it would be a really big consideration and I would have to have at least one other camera that did have an articulated screen.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

no, it's a case of "we can't afford not to".

That's essentially what "me too" means

 

[goldenlight]

So by that reasoning there will have been a migration of video camera owners over to the likes of the 5DII......

Actually there has been, particularly amongst professional video shooters who love the quality, high ISO and narrow DOF, but perhaps not in any great numbers because it is an expensive piece of kit. The Panasonic GH series has also attracted a lot of buyers purely for the video capabilities. Doesn't do a thing for me, though!

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Actually there has been, particularly amongst professional video shooters who love the quality, high ISO and narrow DOF, but perhaps not in any great numbers because it is an expensive piece of kit. The Panasonic GH series has also attracted a lot of buyers purely for the video capabilities. Doesn't do a thing for me, though!

Compared to a pro video camera? I'm pretty sure it's not.

Anyway, I think this thread was about the merits of flip-out screens, not video dslrs

 

[goldenlight]

Anyway, I think this thread was about the merits of flip-out screens, not video dslrs

So why did you deviate off topic? And why was I fool enough to follow?

Seriously, you're happy without a flip-out screen or video, I'm happy without video, others want both and can have them, so it's a great result all round and fantastic that we have so much choice. Gimmicks? Yes - but only if you don't use them. One man's gimmick is another's essential feature!

 

[MartynK]

Manufacturers have always added technology and features to encourage people to buy their products, whether it's particularly useful or not, but I'm not sure that arguing about the "essentials" is worthwhile.

Personally, I don't regard AF or AE as essential, or even features that I want. I managed perfectly well without either of them for donkeys years and still prefer the simplicity of my F2 to any DSLR, although I do like the convenience of digital. I could probably argue that they introduce complications that could lead to unreliability too, but I won't. Most people like and use them, so my own - very minority - view doesn't carry a lot of weight. The "essentials" are subjective, like so many other things, and I think giving people a choice is more important than trying to define them. Unfortunately, the choices are often eroded as time goes by. I can see the day coming when anyone who doesn't want an articulated screen and video will have to buy a pro model, if he can afford it. This is a bit like other things we used to take for granted, like VFs on compacts and half sizes in shoes. You can still have them, but at a cost.

 

[woof woof]

I've never heard of one actually breaking off but it must be acknowledged as a weak point on the otherwise bomb-proof E-3. There have been a number of cases of the screen separating into two half because the screws that join them are not fully up to the job...

That is disappointing but you're always going to get the occasional slip up from time to time as manufacturers do drop the ball now and again... but looking at the feature across different manufacturers over the years it's been available I don't remember reading multiple complaints of screens snapping off or failing so I'd guess that it's just not a significant weak point or problem.

I've only had one camera with a swivel screen, my current G1, and the screen spends most of its time folded against the camera body and when it's in that state there are two advantages, firstly it's protected from damage and secondly I can kid myself I'm using an old time camera

 

[Flash In The Pan]

So why did you deviate off topic?

Wasn't me, guv, honest.......

So video is purely a gimmick, eh?

 

[ukaskew]

I've lost count of the amount of times I've had my body in ridiculously uncomfortable positions trying to see through the viewfinder, I love long exposure shooting without a tripod (ie finding solid surfaces) and these are often well below or above the height I can easily see through the VF. I've taken more than a few shots 'blind', making adjustments based on how far out my last shot was!

Whilst video is another argument entirely, having video shooting capabilities well beyond that of a camcorder (particuarly in terms of depth of field) at hand is a wonderful bonus in my opinion. We're heading to New York for Christmas and I'm looking forward to using a GH2 for video as much as I am for taking photos. I shot some video on my E-PL2 with 20mm 1.7 in Ibiza last week and it looks gorgeous, very film-like.

 

[vixmix]

I wonder if many years ago there was a similar discussion about whether digital photography and digital cameras were a gimmick?

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I wonder if many years ago there was a similar discussion about whether digital photography and digital cameras were a gimmick?

If that's in reference to video, rather than the flip-out screens, then it's not really a comparable issue. Video has been added as an "extra" onto digital dslrs, the digital technology wasn't added onto film cameras, i.e, you couldn't take both film and digital stills with them.

 

[Matt.]

Are the cameras with flip out screens any less weather proof than the ones with normal screens?

 

[goldenlight]

Are the cameras with flip out screens any less weather proof than the ones with normal screens?

No, it's certainly not a week point on the E-3 or E-5 and those are two of the most weatherproof DSLRs there are.