The Amazing Sony A1/A7/A9/APS-C & Anything else welcome Mega Thread!

[the_accidental]

AHAH that's it. Mystery solved - they're using different colour profiles, you get Adobe profiles in LR (for whatever colour space) and system profiles in preview. The exception is if the file has an embedded profile, then that's used. Adobe exports always embed the profile, the sony SOOC jpegs do not.

If I take an ARGB jpeg from Lightroom and extract the colour profile, and embed it in the SOOC jpg without changing the jpg any other way then the Adobe RGB jpeg now appears the same in Lightroom and preview.

Does that make sense? Anyone need that explained more?

 

[the_accidental]

Oh no where have you sent me... so if you're shooting HEIF it defaults sRGB (you can't change it) unless you enable HLG still image then you get the (widest gamut yet) BT.2100 color space (BT.2020 gamut)

This also doesn't embed a profile and is even more of a difference than Adobe RGB (which kinda makes sense at this stage). I do get correct HDR display on a HDR screen in preview though, which is lovely

So what we REALLY want here is for Sony to embed colour profiles. And they can change the file extension to HEIC whilst they're at it too...

 

[the_accidental]

Ok let me try distill this into actionable advice for SOOC files from Sony cameras:

• If you're shooting JPG, use sRGB for most similar images everywhere.
  • If you're being critical about colour, because you're tweaking the camera in some way to modify it, then to evaluate it you have to evaluate the images in the same way they'll be used.
  • So if they go into a Lightroom workflow, fine, evaluate them there.
  • If they go straight to web unedited, I suggest evaluate them there on test web browsers (different OS etc) as I've not done the tests there to see what they do absent an embedded profile. It will vary on OS I'd expect though, but then it'll vary as much or more by monitor, if they have night-shift or similar etc enabled. You're fighting a losing battle, sorry!.
• If you're shooting HEIF:
  • Turn on HLG if you want HDR output viewable on apple devices.
  • rename the files to .heic when they come off the camera so Photos.app displays portrait photos correctly without rotate & crop.

If you care about precise colour:

• You need to control the capture AND display.
• So you need to embed a colour profile in your image.
  • SOOC? Nope.
• This shouldn't be a burden, as if you care that much you're also controlling the display hardware or print.
• if you're not - well most people won't see the subtle changes you care about, sorry.
  • But shoot sRGB and you'll at least minimise them.

 

[snerkler]

Ok let me try distill this into actionable advice for SOOC files from Sony cameras:

• If you're shooting JPG, use sRGB for most similar images everywhere.
  • If you're being critical about colour, because you're tweaking the camera in some way to modify it, then to evaluate it you have to evaluate the images in the same way they'll be used.
  • So if they go into a Lightroom workflow, fine, evaluate them there.
  • If they go straight to web unedited, I suggest evaluate them there on test web browsers (different OS etc) as I've not done the tests there to see what they do absent an embedded profile. It will vary on OS I'd expect though, but then it'll vary as much or more by monitor, if they have night-shift or similar etc enabled. You're fighting a losing battle, sorry!.
• If you're shooting HEIF:
  • Turn on HLG if you want HDR output viewable on apple devices.
  • rename the files to .heic when they come off the camera so Photos.app displays portrait photos correctly without rotate & crop.

If you care about precise colour:

• You need to control the capture AND display.
• So you need to embed a colour profile in your image.
  • SOOC? Nope.
• This shouldn't be a burden, as if you care that much you're also controlling the display hardware or print.
• if you're not - well most people won't see the subtle changes you care about, sorry.
  • But shoot sRGB and you'll at least minimise them.

Haha, do you want to borrow my lab coat?

I've done some testing, if I used AdobeRGB in camera the jpegs look different in LR and also when exported. If I shoot in sRGB in camera the jpegs look the same in LR and also when exported.

 

[snerkler]

I've also been working on colour profiles and have developed something I'm reasonably happy with, still doesn't match my edited raws perfectly but the reds certainly look more realistic and I don't think there's quite as much as a green hue.

Here you can see the difference in reds, on the left is my in camera profile and on the right is camera std. The left looks more true to life (at least on my screen)


Screenshot 2024-12-04 at 12.32.49 by Toby Gunnee, on Flickr

Here it's not so obvious, but the bricks on the right (camera std) are a bit orangey and on the left it's more natural.

Screenshot 2024-12-04 at 12.33.54 by Toby Gunnee, on Flickr

My picture profile settings are:-

Black level -2
Gamma Still
Black Gamma Range Wide
Black Gamma Level -3
Knee (unchanged)
Color Mode Still
Saturation +4
Color Phase 0
Colour depth R +1, G +3, B -1, C +3, M -3, Y 0
Detail level +3


I just need to do the A7RV now

 

[the_accidental]

I've done some testing, if I used AdobeRGB in camera the jpegs look different in LR and also when exported. If I shoot in sRGB in camera the jpegs look the same in LR and also when exported.

Yup this is consistent with what I found above. If you used AdobeRGB and embedded a profile before doing anything with them (you can do this with exiftool) they’d look the same too. But that’s a faff.

FYI I also tested and if you set a “profile” in camera it doesn’t embed a colour profile either (I had a faint glimmer of hope…).

Haha, do you want to borrow my lab coat?

It’s ok, I’ve got my own ;-)

 

[snerkler]

FYI I also tested and if you set a “profile” in camera it doesn’t embed a colour profile either (I had a faint glimmer of hope…).

I'm not sure what you mean by this, when I set a profile in camera it shows the same in LR as it does SOOC on my mac, i.e. with the profile I've created 'in tact'?

 

[snerkler]

I just need to do the A7RV now

Well I needn't have worried, the A7RV is pretty much bob on straight out the box. Here you can see the A7RV unchanged on the left and A1 with my profile on the right. No matter what I try I can't get the greens to stop looking slightly garish on the A1. On the A7RV they're much more subdued and life like It gives me high hopes for the A1 II, although it will be quite some time before I can afford this. It makes me wonder if I'd be better off eventually have the A1 II and A7RV rather than the A1 II and A1, purely for the colours



Screenshot 2024-12-04 at 13.11.42 by Toby Gunnee, on Flickr

 

[the_accidental]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, when I set a profile in camera it shows the same in LR as it does SOOC on my mac, i.e. with the profile I've created 'in tact'?

Image files can have an ICC colour profile embedded in them that describes the colour space they’re in, or they can just reference one. SOOC from Sony there is no embedded ICC profile (but there will be from any LR export).

I had a faint hope what Sony calls “profiles” might be implemented in ICC profiles they embedded (no such luck!).

 

[snerkler]

Image files can have an ICC colour profile embedded in them that describes the colour space they’re in, or they can just reference one. SOOC from Sony there is no embedded ICC profile (but there will be from any LR export).

I had a faint hope what Sony calls “profiles” might be implemented in ICC profiles they embedded (no such luck!).

Yeah I can't see any profiles like that. The only thing that I can see and that changes is this. Top one is sRGB with Camera Std, second is sRGB with my picture profile (shows colour mode 255 whatever that is), and the last is AdobeRGB although this just says colour space uncalibrated and colour mode 19.

 

[snerkler]

Is there a faster/better way than using the Sony Creator's App to transfer photos from the camera to your phone when out and about in the field?

 

[the_accidental]

Preview will only tell you what the name of the profile is, I'm not sure how to get it to tell you if it has ICC embedded or not. I used exiftool to check.

 

[Faldrax]

Is there a faster/better way than using the Sony Creator's App to transfer photos from the camera to your phone when out and about in the field?

I use FTP with my A7iv.
You need to add an FTP sever app to your phone, then set your phone to be a WiFi hotspot, then you can tell the camera to either auto upload images as they are shot, or you can have it batch transfer a selection afterwards.
Google Sony FTP to Phone to find some videos with the details of setting it all up.
I use my tablet as the destination, and batch transfer (So camera and table both connect to phones WiFi, then camera transfers to FTP server on tablet, then I can import the raw into LR mobile for edits.

 

[snerkler]

I use FTP with my A7iv.
You need to add an FTP sever app to your phone, then set your phone to be a WiFi hotspot, then you can tell the camera to either auto upload images as they are shot, or you can have it batch transfer a selection afterwards.
Google Sony FTP to Phone to find some videos with the details of setting it all up.
I use my tablet as the destination, and batch transfer (So camera and table both connect to phones WiFi, then camera transfers to FTP server on tablet, then I can import the raw into LR mobile for edits.

Thanks, I'll definitely look into this. Is there a way to view and then choose the images you want to transfer via the phone app, or do you have to do this via the camera?

 

[Faldrax]

Thanks, I'll definitely look into this. Is there a way to view and then choose the images you want to transfer via the phone app, or do you have to do this via the camera?

No, if you use the FTP option you need to select in camera (you can use the rating system to select, so you can review and rate, then later review and rate some more, then later transfer rated images)

 

[snerkler]

I use FTP with my A7iv.
You need to add an FTP sever app to your phone, then set your phone to be a WiFi hotspot, then you can tell the camera to either auto upload images as they are shot, or you can have it batch transfer a selection afterwards.
Google Sony FTP to Phone to find some videos with the details of setting it all up.
I use my tablet as the destination, and batch transfer (So camera and table both connect to phones WiFi, then camera transfers to FTP server on tablet, then I can import the raw into LR mobile for edits.

Can you recommend an FTP that you use please? There's the Sony one (transfer and tagging) but it only gets 1.9 stars.

 

[Faldrax]

Can you recommend an FTP that you use please? There's the Sony one (transfer and tagging) but it only gets 1.9 stars.

I use 'WiFi FTP Server', by Medha Apps - that's on Android.
I have Filezilla Sever for PC (but that was more as a test, as I normally use a card reader with my desktop or laptop.)

 

[the_accidental]

FYI, as you have an A1, depending on your needs/shooting environment (i.e. will wifi environment be busy?) you can use usb->ethernet adapters on nearly all android and iPhones/iPads, so you could hardwire the network connection between camera and device. Or obviously run an FTP server on a laptop, though if you have a laptop you can shoot tethered in the usual way.

Which also reminds me you can shoot tethered on an iPad too. But it needs the screen to be on etc.

 

[snerkler]

I use 'WiFi FTP Server', by Medha Apps - that's on Android.
I have Filezilla Sever for PC (but that was more as a test, as I normally use a card reader with my desktop or laptop.)

I've used the Sony app and tbh it's worked fine, fast too. The only thing I can't figure out is how to send an individual image, or select group of images, I only seem to be able to send by "this date" or "this media", but that will send all the images from that date or card.

Edit: One way I can do it is to "rate" the images such as 5 star and then you can set it up so that it just transfers the 5 star images. I can set the star rating to a custom button so it takes no time at all.

 

[snerkler]

I use 'WiFi FTP Server', by Medha Apps - that's on Android.
I have Filezilla Sever for PC (but that was more as a test, as I normally use a card reader with my desktop or laptop.)

Looks like that's only available for android The Sony one works well (although I'm yet to try whether you can have two cameras tethered simultaneously), my only gripe is that the photos go into the FTP app and not into photos, and the only adjustments you can do in the FTP app are cropping and straightening. It would be nice if they went to the photos app so that you can add more adjustments (mainly exposure) if needed. I know you should get them right in camera but there's always the odd one or two you get wrong

Edit: it can be used with two cameras simultaneously

 

[Gold]

The new Samyang Prima series sounds interesting: https://www.dpreview.com/news/36860...af-35mm-f1-4-p-first-third-gen-prime-for-sony

Shopping for a 50 1.4 and (presuming the 50 is next and similar) this might be the perfect compromise for size, performance and price.

 

[snerkler]

The new Samyang Prima series sounds interesting: https://www.dpreview.com/news/36860...af-35mm-f1-4-p-first-third-gen-prime-for-sony

Shopping for a 50 1.4 and (presuming the 50 is next and similar) this might be the perfect compromise for size, performance and price.

I'm expecting very good things from this lens. Samyang made a big leap forward between their gen 1 and gen 2 lenses, and if there's as big a leap forward with their gen3 ones then they will be very good indeed. For all their song and dance about being ultra lightweight it's not actually that much lighter than the GM.

 

[woof woof]

Philip Reeve has a review of the Sony 24-50mm...

Review: Sony FE 24-50mm 2.8 G - phillipreeve.net

The Sony FE 24-50mm 2.8 G is a compact f/2.8 standard zoom for Sony E-mount fullframe cameras, but is it also

phillipreeve.net

Also, has everyone noticed that Sony have reportedly registered a new camera which could be the A7V?

Good news: Sony officially registered a new camera in China and this might be the Sony A7V coming in early 2025 | sonyalpharumors

https://youtu.be/DL3Ghap8wXU It's official, folks! Sony has registered a new camera with the code “WW773396” in China (source Weibo). It has dual-band Wifi support 2.4G/5.1GHz That means it: After registration, it usually takes up to 3-4 months for this camera to be announced. Since it has...

www.sonyalpharumors.com

We live in exciting times.

Oh, and I ordered another two watches

 

[SDK^]

I'm waiting on the A7 V specs - I'll be getting this or the A7R5 early next year.

 

[snerkler]

I'm waiting on the A7 V specs - I'll be getting this or the A7R5 early next year.

I don't think it will be revolutionary, just a small step like the A1 to A1 II. It'll likely get the latest AI AF subject recognition, maybe the new body and possibly a small hike in EVF resolution. It'll likely have a couple of video upgrades too but other than that I'm not sure there'd be anything of note. I'd be surprised if they upped the resolution.

 

[ancient_mariner]

If it dropped the price of the A7IV a little that wouldn't do me any harm.

 

[snerkler]

If it dropped the price of the A7IV a little that wouldn't do me any harm.

I’m sure it will, but if it is the A7V I doubt we’ll see it until the second hand of 2025 at the earliest.

 

[woof woof]

I think Sony have maybe run out of big innovations for now. Maybe they now need to do a bit of catch up with Canon and Nikons added features. Maybe they'll surprise us though.

 

[f/1.2]

The new Samyang Prima series sounds interesting: https://www.dpreview.com/news/36860...af-35mm-f1-4-p-first-third-gen-prime-for-sony

Shopping for a 50 1.4 and (presuming the 50 is next and similar) this might be the perfect compromise for size, performance and price.

Until they upgrade the motors in their lenses they will never be able to compete with the G.M lenses and the Sigma Art lenses. Then again maybe they don't want too and are happy being bottom of the barrel. They might struggle with that though given that companies like Viltrox are hammering them right now.

 

[snerkler]

Until they upgrade the motors in their lenses they will never be able to compete with the G.M lenses and the Sigma Art lenses. Then again maybe they don't want too and are happy being bottom of the barrel. They might struggle with that though given that companies like Viltrox are hammering them right now.

I think given the price point they're not trying to compete but offer a cheaper alternative, not everybody needs or can afford the GM lenses. Whether it can keep up with the Sigma AF I don't know, but it is still significantly cheaper and ligher than that. You can't expect to pay 'budget' prices and get GM performance, it'll likely have lovely rendering though.

 

[the_accidental]

If they can make the focusing group lighter they can get faster with the same motors though. Depends where they save weight.

 

[f/1.2]

I think given the price point they're not trying to compete but offer a cheaper alternative, not everybody needs or can afford the GM lenses. Whether it can keep up with the Sigma AF I don't know, but it is still significantly cheaper and ligher than that. You can't expect to pay 'budget' prices and get GM performance, it'll likely have lovely rendering though.

They aren’t t competing with Sigma either their a.f is much better and at the cheap end Viltrox are destroying them.

 

[snerkler]

They aren’t t competing with Sigma either their a.f is much better and at the cheap end Viltrox are destroying them.

In what way are viltrox destroying them?

 

[f/1.2]

In what way are viltrox destroying them?

Better glass at cheaper prices. Have eaten up a fairly hefty amount of their market share.

 

[snerkler]

Better glass at cheaper prices. Have eaten up a fairly hefty amount of their market share.

I guess that depends on the lens as apparently the Samyang 35mm f1.8 is better optically than the Viltrox 35mm f1.8 and the 45mm f1.8 is better optically than the Viltrox 50mm f1.8 going by the reviews I’ve seen and the MTF charts.

Samyang don’t do an AF 85mm f1.8 but apparently the Viltrox falls a little short of the Sony and apparently the Samyang 85mm f1.4 is comparable to the Sony from the reviews I’ve seen.

 

[the_accidental]

Samyang don’t do an 85mm f1.8

Indeed, but they do have a 75/1.8 that I have an really like, especially on my Cii it’s super compact and well balanced, the performance is good too (and great for the price IMO). I did also consider the Sony 85/1.8 and the Viltrox, but the size plus being _slightly_ wider and more general purpose won it for me.

 

[f/1.2]

I guess that depends on the lens as apparently the Samyang 35mm f1.8 is better optically than the Viltrox 35mm f1.8 and the 45mm f1.8 is better optically than the Viltrox 50mm f1.8 going by the reviews I’ve seen and the MTF charts.

Samyang don’t do an AF 85mm f1.8 but apparently the Viltrox falls a little short of the Sony and apparently the Samyang 85mm f1.4 is comparable to the Sony from the reviews I’ve seen.

The 20mm Viltrox is much cheaper and better in every department than the 18mm Samyang.

Samyang have never managed to produce a high end lens like the 16mm Viltrox or the 135mm Viltrox.

I disagree on your opinion on the difference between the 35mm f/1.8 Viltrox and Samyang. The Viltrox has faster a.f and nicer rendering in my opinion.. I haven’t used the Viltrox 50mm surprised that you have. I am gonna guess you are basing your opinion on reviews made by the many people Samyang pay and give free gear too. Viltrox don’t give free gear or pay for reviews.

All of the newer Viltrox lenses can have firmware updates via usb. Samyang make users buy a dock as even brand new glass ships from the factory with old firmware installed making them incompatible with newer bodies unless you buy the dock. A proper con to force people into having to buy the dock.

Can’t remember where I read it but about 4-5 weeks ago there was a break down of the various manufacturers market share y.t.d. Samyangs in the last 12 months had decreased by the same amount that Viltrox has increased most of the others where the same as last year. I expect that will increase more when their new 50 f1.2 and 85 f/1.2 hit in 2025.

Viltrox are now absolutely dominant in the cheap end of the market with ridiculously priced lenses like the 20mm, 40mm and the 28mm pancake. They have already won the battle of the council house lenses. Considering they have only been making a.f lenses for a very short period of time their business performance is pretty ridiculous. If they continue at current rate Samyang will end up a nothing forgotten about brand like Tokina.

 

[snerkler]

The 20mm Viltrox is much cheaper and better in every department than the 18mm Samyang.

Samyang have never managed to produce a high end lens like the 16mm Viltrox or the 135mm Viltrox.

I disagree on your opinion on the difference between the 35mm f/1.8 Viltrox and Samyang. The Viltrox has faster a.f and nicer rendering in my opinion.. I haven’t used the Viltrox 50mm surprised that you have. I am gonna guess you are basing your opinion on reviews made by the many people Samyang pay and give free gear too. Viltrox don’t give free gear or pay for reviews.

All of the newer Viltrox lenses can have firmware updates via usb. Samyang make users buy a dock as even brand new glass ships from the factory with old firmware installed making them incompatible with newer bodies unless you buy the dock. A proper con to force people into having to buy the dock.

Can’t remember where I read it but about 4-5 weeks ago there was a break down of the various manufacturers market share y.t.d. Samyangs in the last 12 months had decreased by the same amount that Viltrox has increased most of the others where the same as last year. I expect that will increase more when their new 50 f1.2 and 85 f/1.2 hit in 2025.

Viltrox are now absolutely dominant in the cheap end of the market with ridiculously priced lenses like the 20mm, 40mm and the 28mm pancake. They have already won the battle of the council house lenses. Considering they have only been making a.f lenses for a very short period of time their business performance is pretty ridiculous. If they continue at current rate Samyang will end up a nothing forgotten about brand like Tokina.

Mine’s based on mtf charts and controlled tests, I find when talking about lenses it’s best to stick to those things that are measured as things like bokeh are subjective.

Of course, none of this matters to me as I’ll not be buying either, well actually I might get the 45mm for portability, and I have no idea how each business is doing, but Samyang lenses do stand up well and are a good alternative for some folk

 

[Gold]

The 20mm Viltrox is much cheaper and better in every department than the 18mm Samyang.

The Viltrox is a much more recent lens than the Samyang though (2023 vs 2019). It’s remarkable how fast lens design/performance is progressing (just look at the GM I vs IIs).

I would guess that we’ll see a v2 of the Samyang light and compact range that will be very competitive.

 

[snerkler]

Cotswolds have the A1 II on pre-order at £5349, that’s quite a saving already.