The Amazing Sony A1/A7/A9/APS-C & Anything else welcome Mega Thread!

[nandbytes]

Just back from Harrison's, had a look at the 16-35mm PZ and 20-70mm f4 (couldn't try them as they were new and they didn't have any demos) but I was a bit underwhelmed. They both felt a bit cheap compared to what I thought they would, and I'm clearly not a lover of the G lens design/barrel as I thought the 20-70mm felt a bit chunky and kind of reminded me of the 24-105mm which I wasn't too fond of. I even asked to try a 24-70mm f4 zeiss alongside it and that's a much nicer lens (imo) in terms of build and feel, I was actually surprised how much smaller it felt too.

They didn't have a 50mm f1.2 to try

G and GM lenses are built all the same as far as I can tell.
Zeiss lenses are all metal builds which mostly just add to weight than achieve anything else IMO.

Personally found the 16-35G lovely to use with no extending barrel unlike the Zeiss lens.

 

[nandbytes]

Nikon Z8 announced - 910gms and 330 shots battery life
I guess I will never own a Nikon body but still their tele lenses are so nice

 

[snerkler]

G and GM lenses are built all the same as far as I can tell.
Zeiss lenses are all metal builds which mostly just add to weight than achieve anything else IMO.

Personally found the 16-35G lovely to use with no extending barrel unlike the Zeiss lens.

Yeah I appreciate that it adds nothing to the final image, but as it's just a hobby it is better if something is nice to use, it's like the M Zuiko Pro lenses they were just nice to use. Not the end of the world clearly, but the 20-70mm certainly didn't feel like a £1300 lens

 

[snerkler]

Nikon Z8 announced - 910gms and 330 shots battery life
I guess I will never own a Nikon body but still their tele lenses are so nice

Yep just received an email about this, looks good and I would say more of a rival for the A1 than the A7RV that people seem to want to compare it to, although it is closer to the A7RV price than the A1. Battery life I take with a pinch of salt, not unusual to quote 300 odd yet still get over 1000 in the real world.

 

[nandbytes]

Yeah I appreciate that it adds nothing to the final image, but as it's just a hobby it is better if something is nice to use, it's like the M Zuiko Pro lenses they were just nice to use. Not the end of the world clearly, but the 20-70mm certainly didn't feel like a £1300 lens

I don't mean final image I meant even for usability. Metal lenses are heavy and not sure they are any more durable than the plastic ones manufactures are making these days. For example even canon uses similar kind of plastic in their lenses.

I don't know what a £1300 lens is supposed to feel like but all my GM lenses are weathersealed and they work pretty well at that.

 

[nandbytes]

Yep just received an email about this, looks good and I would say more of a rival for the A1 than the A7RV that people seem to want to compare it to, although it is closer to the A7RV price than the A1. Battery life I take with a pinch of salt, not unusual to quote 300 odd yet still get over 1000 in the real world.

well its all relative isn't it. A1 is 430 shots battery life which is 35% more than Z8.
I agree it's more of an A1 competitor. The price of the A1 is too high given the competition now.

 

[snerkler]

I don't mean final image I meant even for usability. Metal lenses are heavy and not sure they are any more durable than the plastic ones manufactures are making these days. For example even canon uses similar kind of plastic in their lenses.

I don't know what a £1300 lens is supposed to feel like but all my GM lenses are weathersealed and they work pretty well at that.

The 24-70mm is pretty light actually. It's just the feel of using it, I get not everyone will see it the same

 

[snerkler]

well its all relative isn't it. A1 is 430 shots battery life which is 35% more than Z8.
I agree it's more of an A1 competitor. The price of the A1 is too high given the competition now.

Yep, A1 price is way too much, but then I think it's always been too much.

 

[nandbytes]

Yep, A1 price is way too much, but then I think it's always been too much.

well when it came out it was "one of a kind", so you pay the price for wanting the latest-greatest.

It still does have a few bit of advantages like better EVF, more battery life by a fair margin, mechanical shutter that can do 1/400s sync speed, 30fps cRAW.
It's also a fair bit lighter (though I get that not everyone sees this as an advantage even though I can't really understand why!)

but not sure all that together is still worth £2.5K more.

 

[snerkler]

I decided to get my lab coat on again and compare the bokeh balls of the Samyang 50mm f1.4 FE II and Sigma 85mm f1.4 Art DG DN, both have some mis-shaping at the edges but still much more round than the 50mm f1.4 GM. Obviously preference but I prefer this over the cats eyes. (ignore the weird looking bokeh balls at the bottom half of the frame, they're reflections off an uneven surface)

 

[snerkler]

well when it came out it was "one of a kind", so you pay the price for wanting the latest-greatest.

It still does have a few bit of advantages like better EVF, more battery life by a fair margin, mechanical shutter that can do 1/400s sync speed, 30fps cRAW.
It's also a fair bit lighter (though I get that not everyone sees this as an advantage even though I can't really understand why!)

but not sure all that together is still worth £2.5K more.

Yep, it's still got other things over the Z8 as you mention, and time will tell if the Z8's AF is as good. I see that it has more subjects to choose from in AF, I am surprised Sony haven't added these to the A1 by now, maybe they can't

 

[nandbytes]

Yep, it's still got other things over the Z8 as you mention, and time will tell if the Z8's AF is as good. I see that it has more subjects to choose from in AF, I am surprised Sony haven't added these to the A1 by now, maybe they can't

I have no idea.... their fw strategy is certainly puzzling and very annoying.
A7RV has the all the various subjects to pick from including things like insects I believe.
Not sure why they are not adding the new stuff in A7RV to A1 (and also ideally A7IV).

They did say A7RV had a new processor but surely they can add other bits like focus bracketing without needing a whole new processor!

 

[Faldrax]

I have no idea.... their fw strategy is certainly puzzling and very annoying.
A7RV has the all the various subjects to pick from including things like insects I believe.
Not sure why they are not adding the new stuff in A7RV to A1 (and also ideally A7IV).

They did say A7RV had a new processor but surely they can add other bits like focus bracketing without needing a whole new processor!

In my previous job I did a fair bit of embedded software (Firmware) design / implementation (not on cameras, but some of it did involve image processing) - and it's very heavily constrained by the exact hardware available - not only the processor, but also any additional hardware processing chips and memory (on and off processor).
It may simply be that the existing firmware already uses almost all the available non-volatile memory, and there simply is not enough space for the extra code to handle bracketing (and the added menus to configure it, etc).

 

[nandbytes]

In my previous job I did a fair bit of embedded software (Firmware) design / implementation (not on cameras, but some of it did involve image processing) - and it's very heavily constrained by the exact hardware available - not only the processor, but also any additional hardware processing chips and memory (on and off processor).
It may simply be that the existing firmware already uses almost all the available non-volatile memory, and there simply is not enough space for the extra code to handle bracketing (and the added menus to configure it, etc).

I also used to work in embedded software and I understand the constraints but Sony have added significant updates in the past. including things like introducing Timelapse feature, real time tracking etc.

I'd be really surprised if on a flagship they are have designed it in such a way that FW is no longer extendable to even add features like focus bracketing. And if indeed they have done this then its really poor designing on their part.

Either way its poor on Sony's part.

 

[woof woof]

Could also be internal battles in the company even to the point of being caused by just one intransigent manager, as suggested recently.

This is one thing I've seen.

The rumor site is suggesting that Sony is getting the message on firmware so maybe things will change? Time will tell.

 

[nandbytes]

Could also be internal battles in the company even to the point of being caused by just one intransigent manager, as suggested recently.

This is one thing I've seen.

still very poor on Sony

there is really no way Sony looks good here

 

[woof woof]

still very poor on Sony

there is really no way Sony looks good here

No they don't look good but they're not the only brand seemingly holding things back and as proof I offer the Canon cripple hammer and their more recent efforts to close out 3rd parties.

 

[SFTPhotography]

There is no such thing as the perfect camera, camera system or camera maker. They all have foibles, pifalls, weaknesses or gaps in their line up

 

[Raymond Lin]

Second hand cameras, camera part exchange, digital cameras UK, used cameras, photographic shops, England

The London Camera Exchange supplies second hand cameras, new cameras, digital cameras and other camera equipment and provides a camera part exchange in photographic shops all over England, UK.

www.lcegroup.co.uk

What the heck is this ? lol

 

[ancient_mariner]

Second hand cameras, camera part exchange, digital cameras UK, used cameras, photographic shops, England

The London Camera Exchange supplies second hand cameras, new cameras, digital cameras and other camera equipment and provides a camera part exchange in photographic shops all over England, UK.

www.lcegroup.co.uk

What the heck is this ? lol

'Rifle' style telephoto with zenith camera body.

 

[Swiss Toni]

Second hand cameras, camera part exchange, digital cameras UK, used cameras, photographic shops, England

The London Camera Exchange supplies second hand cameras, new cameras, digital cameras and other camera equipment and provides a camera part exchange in photographic shops all over England, UK.

www.lcegroup.co.uk

What the heck is this ? lol

That takes me back, a Russian Zenith camera. I actually had one of those, not with the sniper attachment though.
If you used that nowadays you would find yourself wrestled to the ground by a police ARU.

 

[nandbytes]

No they don't look good but they're not the only brand seemingly holding things back and as proof I offer the Canon cripple hammer and their more recent efforts to close out 3rd parties.

two wrongs don't make a right

 

[woof woof]

two wrongs don't make a right

That's true but they limit your options for doing better.

Sony limit your camera or at least some of them to what they could do on day 1.
Canon stop you using cheaper 3rd party lenses.
Nikon... Well, several things really

You make your choice and you pay your money.

 

[Faldrax]

I also used to work in embedded software and I understand the constraints but Sony have added significant updates in the past. including things like introducing Timelapse feature, real time tracking etc.

I'd be really surprised if on a flagship they are have designed it in such a way that FW is no longer extendable to even add features like focus bracketing. And if indeed they have done this then its really poor designing on their part.

Either way its poor on Sony's part.

I'd agree that it's something that Sony as a company should have allowed for, but it may not have been a technical design error - given the frequent 'scope creep' on software in general, it may well have been that the primary hardware was initially specified with what seemed like sufficient capacity to extend in future, but this then was used up during development with more functionality being added to the initial design requirements - I'm sure you've encountered the joys of sales / marketing deciding something must be easy to add and adding it without reference to the technical department that actually has to implement it!

 

[Mr Perceptive]

That's true but they limit your options for doing better.

Sony limit your camera or at least some of them to what they could do on day 1.
Canon stop you using cheaper 3rd party lenses.
Nikon... Well, several things really

You make your choice and you pay your money.

Historically Canon had the key to the Cripple Hammer - Sony's philosphy seems to be to release new models with all the functions at a new price, but keep the older models available for those that don't need/want the new functionality. Most manufacturers quickly delete older models, but they probably don't have the production facilities of Sony at their disposal.

Nikon are making a good joob of trying to stay alive, a few years ago as mirrorless took off they looked like becoming another stuggling for survival camera company, but they have managed to drag themselves up.

 

[woof woof]

Historically Canon had the key to the Cripple Hammer - Sony's philosphy seems to be to release new models with all the functions at a new price, but keep the older models available for those that don't need/want the new functionality. Most manufacturers quickly delete older models, but they probably don't have the production facilities of Sony at their disposal.

Nikon are making a good joob of trying to stay alive, a few years ago as mirrorless took off they looked like becoming another stuggling for survival camera company, but they have managed to drag themselves up.

Thankfully Japanese companies (and those in some other countries) can carry on under conditions that would have other companies in other places closed long ago.

I've been called all sorts of fan boy on this site over the years but it honestly doesn't matter to me if my camera gear is made in Thailand by one Japanese company or in Vietnam by another Japanese company but if I was to have a slight soft spot it could be for Nikon as I was a Nikon user for longer that all the rest put together... apart from Kodak so I am sort of happy that Nikon is limping on

 

[snerkler]

Some people take a lot of pictures at the widest apertures and some people look specifically for bokeh balls. For these people bokeh quality and bokeh ball shape will be very important but for other people these are a tiny percentage of the pictures they take and as such may be less important. Things might get irritating from time to time but that irritation could be worth living with for other benefits including bulk, weight, AF performance, price and 99% of pictures looking just fine.

I suppose you will have to decide what's important and how important it is. You know that the down side of some kit is that it has great AF performance, nice enough or even very nice general bokeh but cats eye bokeh balls. To better this you may need to move to another lens which may have less good AF or be larger and more expensive.

To prove your point, now I'm super aware of the shape of the bokeh all of a sudden I've noticed that the 70-200mm GM2 demonstrates the same cat eye bokeh at the edges like the GM primes, and it's not something that's ever bothered me or that I've taken note of before. Now that I'm looking for it I guess I will notice it more, but it's clearly not been a deal breaker before.

 

[snerkler]

Thankfully Japanese companies (and those in some other countries) can carry on under conditions that would have other companies in other places closed long ago.

I've been called all sorts of fan boy on this site over the years but it honestly doesn't matter to me if my camera gear is made in Thailand by one Japanese company or in Vietnam by another Japanese company but if I was to have a slight soft spot it could be for Nikon as I was a Nikon user for longer that all the rest put together... apart from Kodak so I am sort of happy that Nikon is limping on

I have a soft spot for Nikon too, I think if Nikon offered the same lenses and performance as Sony I'd choose Nikon over Sony. There's no logical reason for it, probably just nostalgia

 

[woof woof]

To prove your point, now I'm super aware of the shape of the bokeh all of a sudden I've noticed that the 70-200mm GM2 demonstrates the same cat eye bokeh at the edges like the GM primes, and it's not something that's ever bothered me or that I've taken note of before. Now that I'm looking for it I guess I will notice it more, but it's clearly not been a deal breaker before.

Maybe try and forget about it for a week or so and then revisit the subject and if you think it is something that is going to bother you you can have a think about a way forward... Either swapping your kit for other kit or digging a nail into your hand and using pain as a distraction

 

[woof woof]

I have a soft spot for Nikon too, I think if Nikon offered the same lenses and performance as Sony I'd choose Nikon over Sony. There's no logical reason for it, probably just nostalgia

I wouldn't If Nikon had brought out the A7 instead of Sony then sure, I'd have bought Nikon and I might have chosen Nikon if they'd brought out their A7 on the same day as Sony brought out there's but these days I have lots of native mount lenses (9 AF and 6 MF) and I really don't love Nikon that much to go through all the hassle of a system change.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

To prove your point, now I'm super aware of the shape of the bokeh all of a sudden I've noticed that the 70-200mm GM2 demonstrates the same cat eye bokeh at the edges like the GM primes, and it's not something that's ever bothered me or that I've taken note of before. Now that I'm looking for it I guess I will notice it more, but it's clearly not been a deal breaker before.

View attachment 389017

Fuji wormgate revisited

 

[snerkler]

I wouldn't If Nikon had brought out the A7 instead of Sony then sure, I'd have bought Nikon and I might have chosen Nikon if they'd brought out their A7 on the same day as Sony brought out there's but these days I have lots of native mount lenses (9 AF and 6 MF) and I really don't love Nikon that much to go through all the hassle of a system change.

No I wouldn’t now, I’d lose far too much money. It was just hypothetical if I had the choice of either I’d sway towards Nikon

 

[mav]

I was hoping the z8 was going to be the same weight as the Sony Bodies , i may change , as i like the nikon pf500 Lens , and it would have been an attractive package weight wise. i will see how the reviews go and what the Panamoz pices are like in months,

 

[nandbytes]

I was hoping the z8 was going to be the same weight as the Sony Bodies , i may change , as i like the nikon pf500 Lens , and it would have been an attractive package weight wise. i will see how the reviews go and what the Panamoz pices are like in months,

same here was hoping it would be around the same size/weight as Z6/7 bodies.
I really like their 400mm f4.5 and 800mm f6.3 lenses which was my main reason wanting a nikon body.

 

[snerkler]

This is quite a good comparison of different 50mm's highlighting the differences in rendering.

https://simeonkolev.pixieset.com/battleofthe50s/

 

[JohnMcL7]

I've been 50/50 with Nikon and Sony for a while now, I had an F-mount set up and then added the A9mk1 and a few lenses. The blackout free, silent shooting of the A9 is incredible both being able to shoot away in quiet areas and for tracking shots but its dynamic range is a less than the D750 so I haven't spent the money changing all my Nikon lenses for Sony. Instead I've been keeping the D750 for shots I don't need speed and needs its better IQ and lenses then using the A9 for shots where I need its stacked sensor and high speed. On paper, the Z8 looks exactly what I want as it has the stacked sensor and performance of the A9 but with similar DR to the D750 and compatibility with my F-mount lenses. I damaged the D750 last year and been holding off replacing it to see if they'd offer something like the Z8.

I think the main problem with this thinking is that while the F-mount lenses on the Z9 are apparently no worse in AF performance than the D850 but not as fast as native lenses, if I end up buying a range of native lenses for the Z8 then the whole idea isn't going to work so well. Also there seems no 100-400mm equivalent for a similar price on Nikon either and that's the lens I use the most. It's a shame as usual all the A9III rumours have been nonsense so far as a 25MP version which undercut the Z8 by a reasonable amount with similar DR would be worth considering.

 

[Faldrax]

....

I think the main problem with this thinking is that while the F-mount lenses on the Z9 are apparently no worse in AF performance than the D850 but not as fast as native lenses, if I end up buying a range of native lenses for the Z8 then the whole idea isn't going to work so well. Also there seems no 100-400mm equivalent for a similar price on Nikon either and that's the lens I use the most. It's a shame as usual all the A9III rumours have been nonsense so far as a 25MP version which undercut the Z8 by a reasonable amount with similar DR would be worth considering.

I've recently traded in one of my old A900's for a shiny new A7iv, and had similar thoughts concerning use of adapted A-Mount lenses on E-Mount.
While I've not been out with the camera a lot since I've upgraded, I have been to a family birthday celebration at a venue I'd been at a few years prior and taken shots using my A900.
The ability of the A7iv + LA-EA5 to focus anywhere in the frame, face and eye detect, much better low light performance (both in IQ and focus accuracy) made a huge difference to the shooting experience.
You won't see as big a difference in switching from a D750 to Z8, but provided the AF is no slower, then using adapted you will be a whole lot better off (just from whole frame AF, etc), and can then slowly transition to native as funds permit (and the suitable replacements get added to the range, which will happen).

 

[snerkler]

I've been 50/50 with Nikon and Sony for a while now, I had an F-mount set up and then added the A9mk1 and a few lenses. The blackout free, silent shooting of the A9 is incredible both being able to shoot away in quiet areas and for tracking shots but its dynamic range is a less than the D750 so I haven't spent the money changing all my Nikon lenses for Sony. Instead I've been keeping the D750 for shots I don't need speed and needs its better IQ and lenses then using the A9 for shots where I need its stacked sensor and high speed. On paper, the Z8 looks exactly what I want as it has the stacked sensor and performance of the A9 but with similar DR to the D750 and compatibility with my F-mount lenses. I damaged the D750 last year and been holding off replacing it to see if they'd offer something like the Z8.

I think the main problem with this thinking is that while the F-mount lenses on the Z9 are apparently no worse in AF performance than the D850 but not as fast as native lenses, if I end up buying a range of native lenses for the Z8 then the whole idea isn't going to work so well. Also there seems no 100-400mm equivalent for a similar price on Nikon either and that's the lens I use the most. It's a shame as usual all the A9III rumours have been nonsense so far as a 25MP version which undercut the Z8 by a reasonable amount with similar DR would be worth considering.

Which F-mount lenses do you have that you'd want the Z mount equivalents of?

 

[JohnMcL7]

Which F-mount lenses do you have that you'd want the Z mount equivalents of?

It would depend how well the lenses work with the adapter really, the likes of the small primes I don't need fast AF with but they're probably going to be a bit clumsier with the adapter given their small size. The ultrawide is probably fine with an adapter, there's no Z equivalent to the 28-300mm so it would probably be the 24-70mm F2.8, the 70-200mm F2.8 and 150-600mm would be the ones that may not offer the performance I'm expecting with the adapter. Some of these lenses are not ones I use often any more but they've been handy to have when I have needed them.

 

[nandbytes]

I've been 50/50 with Nikon and Sony for a while now, I had an F-mount set up and then added the A9mk1 and a few lenses. The blackout free, silent shooting of the A9 is incredible both being able to shoot away in quiet areas and for tracking shots but its dynamic range is a less than the D750 so I haven't spent the money changing all my Nikon lenses for Sony. Instead I've been keeping the D750 for shots I don't need speed and needs its better IQ and lenses then using the A9 for shots where I need its stacked sensor and high speed. On paper, the Z8 looks exactly what I want as it has the stacked sensor and performance of the A9 but with similar DR to the D750 and compatibility with my F-mount lenses. I damaged the D750 last year and been holding off replacing it to see if they'd offer something like the Z8.

I think the main problem with this thinking is that while the F-mount lenses on the Z9 are apparently no worse in AF performance than the D850 but not as fast as native lenses, if I end up buying a range of native lenses for the Z8 then the whole idea isn't going to work so well. Also there seems no 100-400mm equivalent for a similar price on Nikon either and that's the lens I use the most. It's a shame as usual all the A9III rumours have been nonsense so far as a 25MP version which undercut the Z8 by a reasonable amount with similar DR would be worth considering.

that's the main reason I don't like the A9 series so far - the lower DR and not being ISO invariant.
Nikon has got the right the tele prime I would want to use i.e. the 400mm f4.5 but they have not got alternatives for any of other primes I regularly use on the wide-normal range.

I think I've come to the conclusion that there isn't a single system that'll do everything I want as well as I'd want it to. So it'll have to be either invest in two systems or just make do with whatever is available with a single system.