The Amazing Sony A1/A7/A9/APS-C & Anything else welcome Mega Thread!

simonbarker said:
Was there a second tripod stuck on top of it? What was filling up all the space in the box?
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Have you never ordered from Amazon? I've had boxes delivered that could fit a small tripod or large camera bag - just for a tiny lens! they're ridiculous with the packaging
 
nandbytes said:
Actually think that's a myth. Say you have a 12mp and a 48mp sensor capturing the same scene. For every pixel in 12mp sensor there are 4 pixels in the 48mp sensor. So while each pixel captures only 1/4th of the light combined/averaged together they capture about the same amount of information. So for example if you take a result from A7R and downsize it to the size of a result of A7S the difference is rather minimal which dpreview actually proved in one of their articles.

I think the difference is due to the larger megapixels requiring more processing and hence introducing more noise. With less data, deeper/larger pixel less electronic noise is introduced.

That's my understanding anyway. Happy to hear alternative logic and explanations :)
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I should be surprised if it were just a relative lack of processing power, and that should be the easiest thing to fix. And yes, averaged together they would give the right values, but the processor can't know what the correct value for just 4 pixels it - rather it would have to average the 8 pixels surrounding the one that received the photon. I should not expect processing to introduce more noise, but rather having to amplify a very small signal more than a somewhat larger one.

That's how I'd perceive it - feel free to take it apart. :)
 
nandbytes said:
Actually think that's a myth. Say you have a 12mp and a 48mp sensor capturing the same scene. For every pixel in 12mp sensor there are 4 pixels in the 48mp sensor. So while each pixel captures only 1/4th of the light combined/averaged together they capture about the same amount of information. So for example if you take a result from A7R and downsize it to the size of a result of A7S the difference is rather minimal which dpreview actually proved in one of their articles.

I think the difference is due to the larger megapixels requiring more processing and hence introducing more noise. With less data, deeper/larger pixel less electronic noise is introduced.

That's my understanding anyway. Happy to hear alternative logic and explanations :)
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It’s not a myth.
The smaller a pixel surface area is the less light it can capture in a single brief exposure and this gives rise to a worse signal to noise ratio.
This is the result of the physics concerning incoming photons and the consequential electron capture in each individual pixel ‘well’.
It’s true if you join 4 adjacent pixel electronically together ( the technical term is called binning) you end up with a super pixel with a bigger area and hence reduced signal to noise ratio. However, this is not possible because of the coloured variation of filters that overlay each pixel ( called a Bayer Matrix).
You can’t combine adjacent pixels because the ones next to it are of a different colour capture.
If you look at the latest copyright submission by Sony it outlines an advanced future sensor where you will see that there are 4 green, 4 blue and 4 red pixels grouped adjacent to each other instead of the normal arrangement in your Sony camera. This will probably be used to bin the pixels in a 2X2 arrangement (4 pixels of the same colour) and hence vastly decrease signal to noise. The camera would take a binned shot for low signal to noise results and then quickly an unbinned image shot with all the individual pixels for resolution - the 2 images combined in camera to obtain the best of both worlds.
This arrangement is in common use on more advanced science based sensors - for example those used in astronomy (although there pixels often do not have a coloured red, green and blue filters (ie no Bayer Matrix) in front of each individual pixel - these luminance (brightness only) pixels are therefore very easily grouped electronically together as a group of 4 (2x2 binning) or as a group of 9 (3x3 binning) pixels.
Hope that’s helps - although it’s only shorthand explanation for something that’s a bit more technical than that.
 
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LeeRatters said:
Grrrrrrrr.... Forecast was for clear skies but fog started forming.


*** by Lee, on Flickr

I embraced it :) That's the saying isn't it?

Then went home, set an early alarm (think about 4.5 hours) & got up to a super foggy morning & spent several hours wandering around a local woodland :)
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Be thankful, I say the fog adds to the image, not all astro images have to be full on clear stars [tbh I fond those type of images boring] - this has character, embrace it :)
 
Cagey75 said:
Be thankful, I say the fog adds to the image, not all astro images have to be full on clear stars [tbh I fond those type of images boring] - this has character, embrace it :)
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Absolutely, much better for it.
 
Cagey75 said:
Be thankful, I say the fog adds to the image, not all astro images have to be full on clear stars [tbh I fond those type of images boring] - this has character, embrace it :)
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ukaskew said:
Absolutely, much better for it.
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Thanks guys. I'm slightly annoyed.... I was shooting more to the right with the water tower thing then span this around as my last shot. Only took the one image rather than several to stack but the noise etc isn't too bad considering....
 
stevelmx5 said:
I've used a Capture Clip for the last 2-3 years, on both my hip and backpack strap, with pretty much all of my cameras at one time or another (from 35mm film/digital up to medium format film, including a couple of A7's) and it's never been an issue. If I use it on a belt, I just make sure that I fit it slightly further around towards the front of my belt but that's just so I can still get things in and out of my pocket!

I also used to use one when I shot weddings so I could have one camera on a Black Rapid style sling strap and the other on my hip so I could switch between them as I needed. The last time I did that I had a D850 on the strap and an A6000 with 70-200 on my hip!
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Thanks for taking the time to reply. Helpful comments much appreciated.
 
Shoot Em Up said:
With the backpack you can attach it anywhere on the strap. I have it just below the shoulder so the lens is resting on my chest. I find this comfortable and easy to access.

When I tried it on my hip, the most comfortable place was at the 2 o'clock position where my arm wouldn't knock it when walking. I haven't tried it closer to the belt buckle but I imagine it would be fine, although the camera would probably move with your leg when walking.
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many thanks for the follow up reply.
 
jbw said:
It’s not a myth.
The smaller a pixel surface area is the less light it can capture in a single brief exposure and this gives rise to a worse signal to noise ratio.
This is the result of the physics concerning incoming photons and the consequential electron capture in each individual pixel ‘well’.
It’s true if you join 4 adjacent pixel electronically together ( the technical term is called binning) you end up with a super pixel with a bigger area and hence reduced signal to noise ratio. However, this is not possible because of the coloured variation of filters that overlay each pixel ( called a Bayer Matrix).
You can’t combine adjacent pixels because the ones next to it are of a different colour capture.
If you look at the latest copyright submission by Sony it outlines an advanced future sensor where you will see that there are 4 green, 4 blue and 4 red pixels grouped adjacent to each other instead of the normal arrangement in your Sony camera. This will probably be used to bin the pixels in a 2X2 arrangement (4 pixels of the same colour) and hence vastly decrease signal to noise. The camera would take a binned shot for low signal to noise results and then quickly an unbinned image shot with all the individual pixels for resolution - the 2 images combined in camera to obtain the best of both worlds.
This arrangement is in common use on more advanced science based sensors - for example those used in astronomy (although there pixels often do not have a coloured red, green and blue filters (ie no Bayer Matrix) in front of each individual pixel - these luminance (brightness only) pixels are therefore very easily grouped electronically together as a group of 4 (2x2 binning) or as a group of 9 (3x3 binning) pixels.
Hope that’s helps - although it’s only shorthand explanation for something that’s a bit more technical than that.
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Thanks for the explanation.

The whole process you explained applies for both small MP small and large MP sensors. The Bayer matrix is common among both small and large MP sensors at the moment. The difference is with large MP sensors the process you explained has to be applied a lot more times because their are lot more RGB pixel sites to combine in a given surface area.
As you said at per pixel SNR is higher in small pixels but I still maintain it will average out pretty well (even though it will not quite match larger pixels).
So going back to my original post example (12mp vs. 48mp for ease of calculation) and extrapolating it; on low MP sensors for 4 pixels i.e. 2G, R and G arrangement you'd fit 16 pixels in the high MP sensor with twice the resolution i.e. 4x 2G,R and R arrangement. So this can still be averaged out as per my original explanation to results in a SNR closer to the low MP sensor.

But in case of 16pixels the processor has also do 4 times more calculations. Also averaging is fully software and not perfect. Hence there is some differences in overall SNR but the difference should be small (perhaps like the difference in A7RIII and A7RIV).
But I was expecting Sony to close out this difference with a new processor to do a better job but I believe they are reusing the same old processor which is where this whole debate started :D

ancient_mariner said:
I should be surprised if it were just a relative lack of processing power, and that should be the easiest thing to fix. And yes, averaged together they would give the right values, but the processor can't know what the correct value for just 4 pixels it - rather it would have to average the 8 pixels surrounding the one that received the photon. I should not expect processing to introduce more noise, but rather having to amplify a very small signal more than a somewhat larger one.

That's how I'd perceive it - feel free to take it apart. :)
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How is it easy to fix? I don't follow because we can't just fit a Nvidia graphics card in there :D
Also for example A7S and A7R have the same generation processor. So the processor will have to lot more processing explained above in one case of higher MP body.
Amplification introduces noise as you said. In case of higher MP the processor is amplifying lot of smaller i.e. poorer signals and hence more SNR. But over a surface area it will average out but not to quite equal low MP sensor.

Sony could have indeed upgraded the processor like you said in a newer gen body like A7RIV but they didn't. Hence it doesn't quite perform as well as A7RIII at higher ISO. I am expecting them to use the same sensor and upgrade the processor for A7RV lol. They seem to like reusing sensors between generations (eg: A7/ii, A7RII/III, A7S/II, A6300/6400)
 
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nandbytes said:
Sony could have indeed upgraded the processor like you said in a newer gen body like A7RIV but they didn't. Hence it doesn't quite perform as well as A7RIII at higher ISO. I am expecting them to use the same sensor and upgrade the processor for A7RV lol. They seem to like reusing sensors between generations (eg: A7/ii, A7RII/III, A7S/II, A6300/6400)
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For the reasons JBW gave it's not the processor, which is why Sony didn't need to upgrade it. It's not inability to process the data, but the smaller pixels that can't be binned together.

jbw said:
The camera would take a binned shot for low signal to noise results and then quickly an unbinned image shot with all the individual pixels for resolution
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I suspect you meant higher signal to noise ratio. ;)
 
ancient_mariner said:
For the reasons JBW gave it's not the processor, which is why Sony didn't need to upgrade it. It's not inability to process the data, but the smaller pixels that can't be binned together.



I suspect you meant higher signal to noise ratio. ;)
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And for reasons I gave in reply jbw I believe it is the processor to some extent (I appreciate it is not the only contributor). How else would you explain the difference between A7RII and A7Riii for example.
I got the idea jwb for some reason takes Bayer architecture into account for high MP sensor but not for low MP. I have explained my reasoning in my reply :)
Dpreview also showed the difference in A7S and A7R is minimal at high ISO when results are normalised. The little difference between the two is of course the sensor design and to a good extent also the processor IMO.
 
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nandbytes said:
And for reasons I gave in reply jbw I believe it is the processor to some extent (I appreciate it is not the only contributor). How else would you explain the difference between A7RII and A7Riii for example.
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I will investigate and come back about that (if I remember - going on holiday, IF our flight ever leaves).
 
ancient_mariner said:
I will investigate and come back about that (if I remember - going on holiday, IF our flight ever leaves).
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I need to investigate this myself now. The above is only my opinion at the moment, I can't claim it with any amount of certainty. Going to get in touch with a few knowledgeable people myself.
 
Our 11.35 flight now *may* be leaving at 3pm. :p
 
nandbytes said:
And for reasons I gave in reply jbw I believe it is the processor to some extent (I appreciate it is not the only contributor). How else would you explain the difference between A7RII and A7Riii for example.
I got the idea jwb for some reason takes Bayer architecture into account for high MP sensor but not for low MP. I have explained my reasoning in my reply :)
Dpreview also showed the difference in A7S and A7R is minimal at high ISO when results are normalised. The little difference between the two is of course the sensor design and to a good extent also the processor IMO.
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If you are technically minded do a google search for the research work by the physicist Prof. Eric Fossum whose work on replacing the massive (relative) pixels we presently have (which receive thousands of photons in a single shot) with instead nano ‘jots’ which are so small they can only record a single photon (or not). These sensors would have near zero noise and would have enormous resolutions which in turn would need large downscaling for viewing.
Happy reading
James
 
jbw said:
If you are technically minded do a google search for the research work by the physicist Prof. Eric Fossum whose work on replacing the massive (relative) pixels we presently have (which receive thousands of photons in a single shot) with instead nano ‘jots’ which are so small they can only record a single photon (or not). These sensors would have near zero noise and would have enormous resolutions which in turn would need large downscaling for viewing.
Happy reading
James
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Thanks I'll give it read over the week :)
 
Somebody gave me a phone today so I took a few pictures with it and although they look good on the phone on my pc they're absolute garbage. Oh well... I think I'd like to give it back but I don't want to seem ungrateful... problems... problems...
 
f/2.8 said:
Stair gates
Drawers with child proof locks
Random sock on the table

Deffo a young un in there. :D
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nandbytes said:
Looks like the same kind of mess my son makes. Judging by the stairs gate I suspect you have a similar infestation? ;)
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Yep! 20 months old, now. Late reply, i'm aware, but we've been travelling all day (up at 4am with 3hrs sleep..), BUT a lovely BA flight later (and a half decent breakfast and coffee in a lounge, for a change) we're in Tuscany. The tiny hooman has a fever, which has made it all the tougher. Hopefully we all get some sleep tonight! Tripod testing begins in earnest tomorrow. So far, though - super duper stable, in comparison to the 5 section Befree type ones i've used before.

Crap view, like:
.pano.jpg
 
robj20 said:
Bigger than I expected when you said you wanted a travel one.
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40 odd cm, fits on the tripod pocket of my backpack perfectly. For me weight and stability trump overall compacted length. What's 10cm in a tripod, really.

LeeRatters said:
Nice. I've been thinking about a Leofoto recently. They seem to be the best of this new, lower priced, 'copy' range that have been appearing the past year or two.
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Happy with it, so far! Came in a really decent padded case, with an extra centre column, a multitool, carabiner, a bunch of allen keys as spare, spiked feet etc. I'll be trying it out over the next few weeks on holiday here - i'll be sure to update!
 
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ohms12 said:
40 odd cm, fits on the tripod pocket of my backpack perfectly. For me weight and stability trump overall compacted length. What's 10cm in a tripod, really.



Happy with it, so far! Came in a really decent padded case, with an extra centre column, a multitool, carabiner, a bunch of allen keys as spare, spiked feet etc. I'll be trying it out over the next few weeks on holiday here - i'll be sure to update!
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How do you compare stability. I find as long as you attach a weight to the tripod it doesn't really matter what the tripod is made out of.
I can't get my head round spending more and get a heavier and longer packed length.
The only downside I find is the centre column would be nice if it went lower.

Oh and if you find a plate that when fitted still allows the screen to open tilted down let me know.
 
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-markie- said:
Nice. which lens?
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Cheers, Samyang 14mm f/2.8 (manual version)

(I really wish it had straight aperture blades for nicer sun-stars)
 
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robj20 said:
How do you compare stability. I find as long as you attach a weight to the tripod it doesn't really matter what the tripod is made out of.
I can't get my head round spending more and get a heavier and longer packed length.
The only downside I find is the centre column would be nice if it went lower.

Oh and if you find a plate that when fitted still allows the screen to open tilted down let me know.
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Comparing stability? Here’s a handy guide for you: https://thecentercolumn.com/testing-tripod-stiffness-and-damping-at-the-center-column/

I’m spending more for a lighter (it’s 1kg) and stiffer tripod. Sure, you can attach weight to the column base, but A) that’s a pain in the ass, especially is you’re using that bag to take lenses or filters out of, and B) not helpful when it’s windy - as the bag bashes against the legs. I live in Scotland, it’s always wet and windy, attaching bags isn’t helpful.

Having a small packed tripod where you need to extend the centre column to make it a useable height is utterly pointless imo, you lose all stability when extending the centre column - extra bag weight won’t help you there.

The tripod I purchased uses Arca Swiss on he ballhead, so I’m using the tiny PD tripod plate that’s on my camera anyway. I can adjust the screen up and down without hitting anything. :)
 
jonneymendoza said:
I read that as 7 members of the Sony artisans have leaked/announced a couple of 35mm 1.4 gm lens....
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If only, but it may be coming soon. :oops: :$

Have you ever noticed how Sony always have a new major product announcement just after the cash back deal finishes. :whistle:
 
f/2.8 said:
If only, but it may be coming soon. :oops: :$

Have you ever noticed how Sony always have a new major product announcement just after the cash back deal finishes. :whistle:
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Don't think it's a conspiracy though. New lenses aren't included in cashback anyway. It takes a couple years before they include them.
 
nandbytes said:
Don't think it's a conspiracy though. New lenses aren't included in cashback anyway. It takes a couple years before they include them.
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Yeah I know, fact remains though that there has been a major product announcement at the of the last 6 cashback promotions.

Imagine it is the new A7SII replacement this time though. But we will see....
 
f/2.8 said:
Yeah I know, fact remains though that there has been a major product announcement at the of the last 6 cashback promotions.

Imagine it is the new A7SII replacement this time though. But we will see....
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True. Sony promised 5 new FE lenses this year.
If I am not mistaken we have seen 4 so far so yet one more expected.
 
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