The Amazing Sony A1/A7/A9/APS-C & Anything else welcome Mega Thread!

I read an article last night about the A9 that said it didn't have an issue with banding it was down to lights and that as they flicker which they do because of the EVF it shows sometimes.
Either way an expensive issue
 
twist said:
At least it's finally been settled as a real issue. Shame as it's aimed at sports shooters.
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Yea. If you don't shoot athletes lit up by ad boards you are fine.

I wonder if Sony can fix it in firmware by making read out speed faster than 160/1? Making It 300/1 like a mechanical shutter would mitigate the banding?

Also I wonder at what shutter speed it shows? Not sure what setting the original afro guy was shooting at.

But if it's fine to shoot at 4000/1 before seeing the issue then maybe at times it would be ok?

If the threshold is say 1000/1 then that's too low and slow for sports.

For premier league football I don't think it will be a big issue as many stadiums are lit heavily by flood lights. However if some action happen right next to the ad board. Your screwed.

Question.

Why has there been no dslr or mirrorless that has full global shutter?

Is it too expensive? Has more cons than pos at the moment? Too large of a shutter? What could it be?

Global shutter has been invented and mentioned for a long time yet no camera uses it? Why when it will get rid of this and also allow your flash sync speed to be unlimited?
 
Nuzik said:
I read an article last night about the A9 that said it didn't have an issue with banding it was down to lights and that as they flicker which they do because of the EVF it shows sometimes.
Either way an expensive issue
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I get that with my iPad
 
Nuzik said:
I read an article last night about the A9 that said it didn't have an issue with banding it was down to lights and that as they flicker which they do because of the EVF it shows sometimes.
Either way an expensive issue
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Well tbh everyone including me knew it is a electronically shutter and banding may occur.

For me it would be a deal breaker if I see banding on normal lights indoors.

It doesn't. It shows on ad boards and WiFi led(that also shows in dslr BTW)
 
Put it this way. I have a sports orientated camera that's far lighter and smaller then a dslr equivalent thats faster and a bit cheaper.
 
jonneymendoza said:
Question.

Why has there been no dslr or mirrorless that has full global shutter?

Is it too expensive? Has more cons than pos at the moment? Too large of a shutter? What could it be?

Global shutter has been invented and mentioned for a long time yet no camera uses it? Why when it will get rid of this and also allow your flash sync speed to be unlimited?
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I work in machine vision, putting cameras on production lines inspecting things, and on robots, etc. We have had global shutters for years, but our resolution requirements are often low, most modern machine vision applications are between 0.5 and 5 MP of resolution. We don't need a lot of data, as the more data we have the more we have to process, and since we are usually working in real time, speed is often of the essence. There are though a few cameras with high MP sensors (25MP+) but at the moment these don't have high framerate output, think 5fps. These cameras though are very expensive, think £10K for a mono 28MP camera with 5fps and GigE output (APSC sensor size), we then add lensing, a processor, etc (and of course there is no AF in these cameras). I'm sure that we will see global shutters in handheld cameras in the medium term, but there needs to be a demand to start driving the cost down.

There will always be a potential issue with 'banding' as there is a relationship between shutter speed and lighting refresh (this is possible with all shutter types), both are evolving. We generally use high frequency lighting (or fixed LED), as we want to negate the 50Hz effect of older style factory lighting systems, and fluorescent tubes (though HF ballasts are available for the latter)
 
I'll go back a comment which made earlier, it went something like this.....
If you shot at 20fps with the electronic shutter, will you see banding in every single of those 20 shots or just the one or two?
I don't think it's a massive issue as I've seen this effect plenty of times before under artificial lighting and if you can't get a good photo out of 20 shots @ 20fps then something is amiss. :D
 
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Riz_Guru said:
I'll go back a comment which made earlier, it went something like this.....
If you shot at 20fps with the electronic shutter, will you see banding in every single of those 20 shot or just the one or two?
I don't think it's a massive issue as I've seen this affect plenty of times before under artificial lighting and if you can't get a good photo out of 20 shots @ 20fps then something is amiss. :D
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Only on the shots which 'happen' to conincide with the any artiificial lighting refresh - This applies to any camera shutter system, it is possible to get a dark image or partially dark or banded image on a global shutter if its opened just at the wrong time.

At 20fps you will get plenty of keepers regardless of shutter speed - providing everything else is ok, focus, shakey hands, etc...... :D
 
Nuzik said:
That's not fit for purpose and you wasted 4k on it lol. Shoulda got a D750 ;)
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lol it doesnt shoot above 10fps nevermind 20 ;)

Thats saved for the D5 hehe.

Question: would canikon be brave enough to make there d900/5d5 shoot at least 12fps? hehe
 
Mr Perceptive said:
Only on the shots which 'happen' to conincide with the any artiificial lighting refresh - This applies to any camera shutter system, it is possible to get a dark image or partially dark or banded image on a global shutter if its opened just at the wrong time.

At 20fps you will get plenty of keepers regardless of shutter speed - providing everything else is ok, focus, shakey hands, etc...... :D
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I thought so, it's a issue yes but not end of the world :)
Still have to applaud Sony on the A9 and other A7 models. They get better with each model that comes out, not bad for 4 years worth of progress.
 
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Riz_Guru said:
I thought so, it's a issue yes but not end of the world :)
Still have to applaud Sony on the A9 and other A7 models are they get better with each model that comes out, not bad for 4 years worth of progress.
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20fps on a high MP colour sensor takes a staggering amount of processing (I'd expect the A9 to run a little warm if continually used in this mode, though how much is translated to the outer case remains to be seen) - You are moving 24Mp at 14 bit depth, converting image to colour using a filter translation and then writing that data to 1 or 2 cards, at a target 20 times a second that's a serious amount of data.

In a 241 RAW image burst, that's 11.6Gb of data handled from the sensor - 24MP x 2 (14 bits in two bytes) x 241 = 11,568Mb = 11.6 Gb
 
Mr Perceptive said:
20fps on a high MP colour sensor takes a staggering amount of processing (I'd expect the A9 to run a little warm if continually used in this mode, though how much is translated to the outer case remains to be seen) - You are moving 24Mp at 14 bit depth, converting image to colour using a filter translation and then writing that data to 1 or 2 cards, at a target 20 times a second that's a serious amount of data.

In a 241 RAW image burst, that's 11.6Gb of data handled from the sensor - 24MP x 2 (14 bits in two bytes) x 241 = 11,568Mb = 11.6 Gb
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So the Sony A9 is a proper beast! :)
 
Nuzik said:
If only it did what it said on the tin

Haha so true
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Perhaps but I don't think it's a big problem with 20 fps at your disposal.

I would be interesting to see if this banding can be reproduced with some high frequency LED's?

It's a shame Sony missed the frequency range for the advertisement LED boards at a football matches, you'd think the R&D team work extensively test for this kind of thing.

Come to think of it, surely Sony would have testing for banding? Something doesn't add up, they release a sport oriented body yet it has issues with banding at a popular sporting even? Mmmmmmm
 
Riz_Guru said:
Perhaps but I don't think it's a big problem with 20 fps at your disposal.

I would be interesting to see if this banding can be reproduced with some high frequency LED's?

It's a shame Sony missed the frequency range for the advertisement LED boards at a football matches, you'd think the R&D team work extensively test for this kind of thing.

Come to think of it, surely Sony would have testing for banding? Something doesn't add up, they release a sport oriented body yet it has issues with banding at a popular sporting even? Mmmmmmm
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Money money money.
Sony are like Apple. Money grabbing idiots.
Did they test it of course they did, did they know about it of course they do. Did they care nope.
I don't believe for one second that pro photographers and I men's pros that go to football games and other sporting events are going to get rid of their canon or Nikon gear for a Sony. They will have invested thousands upon thousands in glass. Glass bigger and heavier than a pregnant sumo whale. A smaller body offers them what? When you are lugging a 400mm plus lens a small body is somewhat pointless.

Mirrorless are are getting better and better I think when canon and Nikon finally join the boat properly that will be when they are truly ready.

For now mirrorless will be good enough for studio, weddings and street
 
Riz_Guru said:
Perhaps but I don't think it's a big problem with 20 fps at your disposal.

I would be interesting to see if this banding can be reproduced with some high frequency LED's?

It's a shame Sony missed the frequency range for the advertisement LED boards at a football matches, you'd think the R&D team work extensively test for this kind of thing.

Come to think of it, surely Sony would have testing for banding? Something doesn't add up, they release a sport oriented body yet it has issues with banding at a popular sporting even? Mmmmmmm
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Riz, don't go all techy geeky over this, LED technology is a very fast moving world of development at the moment, and there is no way Sony could test all situations, and as I said before you can still get banding effects (or dark images) with any type of shutter, its a relationship between shutter speed and lighting refresh rates.

Don't go looking for problems..... that are really non-problems
 
Mr Perceptive said:
20fps on a high MP colour sensor takes a staggering amount of processing (I'd expect the A9 to run a little warm if continually used in this mode, though how much is translated to the outer case remains to be seen) - You are moving 24Mp at 14 bit depth, converting image to colour using a filter translation and then writing that data to 1 or 2 cards, at a target 20 times a second that's a serious amount of data.

In a 241 RAW image burst, that's 11.6Gb of data handled from the sensor - 24MP x 2 (14 bits in two bytes) x 241 = 11,568Mb = 11.6 Gb
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Th A9 can't shoot uncompressed 14bit files at 20 FPS. Even so it's still a lot of information to shift.
 
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Right less bashing now from me.


I may want a wider angle lens maybe the 20mm or is there something else that's quite good just to dip my toe into landscapes to finish my trio of lenses.

I will have a 35mm a 85mm so give me some opinions and options guys
 
Nuzik said:
Right less bashing now from me.


I may want a wider angle lens maybe the 20mm or is there something else that's quite good just to dip my toe into landscapes to finish my trio of lenses.

I will have a 35mm a 85mm so give me some opinions and options guys
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You could buy a handful of manual lenses and see if you're going to like any focal length enough to justify the cost of a modern AF lens :D Or you could look at the new 12-24mm which seems to be getting good reviews.

I had a 12-24mm in my DSLR days, 12mm is very wide and 24mm takes you to a length which was/is a pretty common prime length. These very wide lenses are however maybe some of the most difficult lenses to use well, you really have to think about what you're doing.
 
Mr Perceptive said:
Riz, don't go all techy geeky over this, LED technology is a very fast moving world of development at the moment, and there is no way Sony could test all situations, and as I said before you can still get banding effects (or dark images) with any type of shutter, its a relationship between shutter speed and lighting refresh rates.

Don't go looking for problems..... that are really non-problems
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Your right, it's not like I'll be at any football matches anyway! Lol
For my uses it'll be a non issue. ;)
 
Riz_Guru said:
Your right, it's not like I'll be at any football matches anyway! Lol
For my uses it'll be a non issue. ;)
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One issue for me when shooting indoors with friends and family with my Panny GX7 is if there's a TV on in the room banding can be very bad, switching to the mechanical shutter cures the problem as does turning off the TV. The GX80 copes better as it automatically selects electronic or mechanical shutter and the mechanical shutter is very quiet and usually isn't an issue.

Overall though I can't believe people are getting so bent out of shape over this.
 
Nuzik said:
Money money money.
Sony are like Apple. Money grabbing idiots.
Did they test it of course they did, did they know about it of course they do. Did they care nope.
I don't believe for one second that pro photographers and I men's pros that go to football games and other sporting events are going to get rid of their canon or Nikon gear for a Sony. They will have invested thousands upon thousands in glass. Glass bigger and heavier than a pregnant sumo whale. A smaller body offers them what? When you are lugging a 400mm plus lens a small body is somewhat pointless.

Mirrorless are are getting better and better I think when canon and Nikon finally join the boat properly that will be when they are truly ready.

For now mirrorless will be good enough for studio, weddings and street
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I've heard that many sports toggers use gear loaned out to them or owned by the press they work for
 
Nuzik said:
Oh yes loads use loaned gear! b****x most togs will be freelance.
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Na they work for a press company and they get loaned the equipment usually for prestigious sport events such as the premier league.

Freelancers still get gear loaned to them.

I'm not as per say a freelance sports togger but in a freelance software developer and the place I'm in now loaned me a laptop. I don't use my own. I use there one.
 
Nuzik said:
Money money money.
Sony are like Apple. Money grabbing idiots.
Did they test it of course they did, did they know about it of course they do. Did they care nope.
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I think there's actually quite a bit of truth in this - not just for the A9, but the A7's too. Not to say they aren't amazing cameras, but I think they're certainly guilty of pursuing specs over real life performance and usability.

Quite a few of the annoyances in the A7's would/should have been identified during R&D if given to actual photographers, not programmers who take shots.
Classic examples of dropped balls; terrible menu, stopped down aperture to focus when at f8 or smaller, star-eating RAW files and now banding when shooting in the exact scenario the camera was designed for. Not to mention then having the audacity to charge for apps when many cameras have as standard.

Apple get away with being money-grabbers as their R&D team is seriously on the ball. Say what you will about the price of their products - they all work very well.

Don't get me wrong, I still love my A7R2 and it will remain a far more capable camera than I am photographer - but even as a keen amateur, there's things about the firmware that annoy me. What's more irritating is Sony's solution is to build a new body, not just patch the firmware, what was the gap between 3.3 and 4? 12 months? And it still didn't fix star-eating.
 
Sony ain't perfect. No camera brand is tbh. You just got to weigh the pros and cons and see which product suits you.

The appature stopped down has been fixed. And I don't shoot much astronomy. London is poor for that lol.

They do make some daft decisions no doubt. But f*** it. I'm a use there gear on its pros
 
Interesting info below.

Tom, the affected shots are where players are close to the ad boards and the LEDs are reflecting light onto them. The Nikon and Canon shots he showed were players in the middle of the field, far away from the boards. The Sony shots are not affected here either.

Here's a good example of this (Sony). The player with his back to us has banding. The player further into the field doesn't. https://www.flickr.com/photos/jaredpolin/34744434503/in/album-72157682618704614/

Also the patterning is only visible on light areas. Here on the white guy's face:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jaredpolin/35166468230/in/album-72157682618704614/

A similar part of the field near the touchline. Nothing visible on the player's black skin or black shirt.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jaredpolin/35514417996/in/album-72157682618704614/

Fro/Pollin needs to retrieve Nikon shots from the touchline and post those. I suspect they will also show banding - though half as many cycles as Rishi explains.

//

So he hasn't showed any shots on his nikon shooting players near the ad board? I would like to see this test as well. Yes it would have less banding but they may still be banding on a canikon.
 
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