The 70-200mm 2.8L

I don't quite get why the 70-200 f/2.8 Non IS and IS Mk1 are slated on every photography forum I use. They're not as sharp as the Mk2 well bully for the people with the Mk2. Of course revisions of a lens are going to be better than the original. Is that to say that the non-IS or IS Mk1 should be avoided? I really don't see why, at the time both were lusted after by many and they were and still are superb lenses. If you need an f/2.8 70-200 you can't go wrong with any of them, if you need weather sealing get one of the IS versions. If you don't need weather sealing or IS get the non-IS you will not be disappointed.

Well, the Mk 1 f2.8 IS was perfectly acceptable before the Mk2 came along. Now, the new model is very, very good, but the Mk1 didn't suddenly stop producing great images overnight. It's just that the bar has been lifted to a greater level.

I presume you are talking about a MkII?

Yes, one of the issues of using an iPad whilst on a busy train :bang:

Steve
 
I don't




Well, that's your opinion and not fact. For some people it makes sense. It's the same reason people often don't have a backup body the same as their normal camera, not everyone can afford 2 of the same.

I also read an example where someone has the 2.8 for normal use but when they go hiking or camping they take the f/4 as it is smaller and light, what doesn't make sense about that?

diddnt say it was fact. a f2.8 doesnt weigh the same as a fridge does it? The way in which some complain about the weight, it is as if they are carrying a fridge all day.

have two bodys makes perfect sense as it can reduce lens swaping and many bodys have huge differences and purpose between the two unlike f4 anf f2.8 of this lens.

ignoring weight and size, what does the f4 do better? nothing that i can see.

Now same question in regards to camera bodys. what does the 7d do better then a 5dmk2?:shrug:

I can bet you that there are farrrrrr more people with two bodys then there are with an f4 AND A F2.8 of this lens.

Also. you say weight is a big factor right? then why are you considering the f2.8 lens? it doesnt matter how great the images are, it wont make the lens any lighter:bonk:

if something was too heavy or ugly, why consider it if those factors are very important to you?
 
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Been following this thread for a while and I really don't get it.

Apart from the discussion of MKII being sharper than the MKI issue etc, which in my opinion really is redundant as before the MKII came the MKI was always seen as one of the must have lenses for most people who could afford it, the argument about the f/2.8 and the f/4.0 and keeping on comparing the IQ seems so futile.

May be for someone who doesn't need f/2.8 many times and just sees it as a bonus for occasional use but I can guarantee you that get into a situation where for example you are shooting indoor gymnastics with lighting so bad it makes you cringe open up the lens and use it at f/2.8, and even then you are forced to bump up the ISO to 5000 and you hardly manage a shutter speed of 640 you will be thanking your gods for having the f/2.8 version. Oh and forgot to add that you are shooting jpg for instant onsite printing and selling to parents, then you start realising the value of the f/2.8 IS in these lenses

Well, I am not as experienced as some here but I have been in this game long and deep enough to be in situations like this various times and I can guarantee that given a chance to buy between an f/2.8 IS version and the f/4.0 the choice will be very simple and not debatable.
But hey, that's just me....
 
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have two bodys makes perfect sense as it can reduce lens swaping and many bodys have huge differences and purpose between the two unlike f4 anf f2.8 of this lens.

not everyone has a backup body to use at the same time, some have the backup body in the car in case one breaks. Same thing with the lens, if it breaks you have a backup

ignoring weight and size, what does the f4 do better? nothing that i can see.

LOL, that's like saying "ignoring the lower aperture, what does the f2.8 do better? nothing that i can see"

Also. you say weight is a big factor right? then why are you considering the f2.8 lens? it doesnt matter how great the images are, it wont make the lens any lighter:bonk:

if something was too heavy or ugly, why consider it if those factors are very important to you?

It's about measuring up pro's and cons. If the IQ is way better on the 2.8 than the f/4 then I'd be willing to suffer the size and weight. When choosing a product you don't just go by one factor, at least i don't. I see the size and weight of the 2.8 as one of it's downsides and I'd like to know if the pro's of the lens outweigh this downside by seeing the IQ compared.

pretty straightforward I think
 
Well, I am not as experienced as some here but I have been in this game long and deep enough to be in situations like this various times and I can guarantee that given a chance to buy between an f/2.8 IS version and the f/4.0 the choice will be very simple and not debatable.
But hey, that's just me....

That choice for me was the F4 (non IS). Purely in my experience the F4 **** all over the 2.8IS for image quality. Focussing was just as quick if not quicker, it was lighter and nicer to use, just a fantastic lens and so much better value.

If it wasn't for the fact that I needed F2.8 for low light, and weather sealing, the F4 would have been my choice every time. And yes, I did own them both for a while. Did it make sense? Well, it did at the time, but it's subjective. The F2.8IS could do everything the F4 does but it didn't necessarily make it better, at least not for me.

Having seen, and worked with (but not owned), the output from a MkII and 1D MkIV combo though I'd find it far harder, if not impossible, to justify keeping a F4.
 
not everyone has a backup body to use at the same time, some have the backup body in the car in case one breaks. Same thing with the lens, if it breaks you have a backup



LOL, that's like saying "ignoring the lower aperture, what does the f2.8 do better? nothing that i can see"



It's about measuring up pro's and cons. If the IQ is way better on the 2.8 than the f/4 then I'd be willing to suffer the size and weight. When choosing a product you don't just go by one factor, at least i don't. I see the size and weight of the 2.8 as one of it's downsides and I'd like to know if the pro's of the lens outweigh this downside by seeing the IQ compared.

pretty straightforward I think

Joe, what you're asking to see is revealed in the link to the-digital-picture posted earlier. All aspects of lens performance are shown there. You just have to do a bit of work to understand what it is you're looking at, and put it in context. All that information is available on the site.

The portrait test shot that you're asking for would show nothing - zero difference. A test like that is not very demanding in terms of ultimate quality, and neither is it truly repeatable and therefore pretty hard to draw comparisons from (key point for lens test websites).

The two lenses you're talking about - 70-200L 4 IS and 70-200L 2.8L 2.8 Mk2 - are amongst a small number of the very sharpest lenses available anywhere. It needs a very tough test to separate them and further, since the only noticeable difference is corner sharpness, a portrait is unlikely to show that at all.

In practical terms, the upside of the 2.8 Mk2 is that it is one stop faster and can take a 2x extender yet still deliver a very high standard of sharpness and retain AF. The downside is double the weight and price. That's it - everything else, both in terms of optical performance and mechanical function, is so close as makes no odds.

This is pretty remarkable result for the 2.8 Mk2 lens, which you would usually expect to get noticeably beaten by an f/4 design, and IQ start to fall apart with an extender attached. With every other 2.8 version, that's what happens.
 
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Joe, what you're asking to see is revealed in the link to the-digital-picture posted earlier. All aspects of lens performance are shown there. You just have to do a bit of work to understand what it is you're looking at, and put it in context. All that information is available on the site.

The portrait test shot that you're asking for would show nothing - zero difference. A test like that is not very demanding in terms of ultimate quality, and neither is it truly repeatable and therefore pretty hard to draw comparisons from (key point for lens test websites).

The two lenses you're talking about - 70-200L 4 IS and 70-200L 2.8L 2.8 Mk2 - are amongst a small number of the very sharpest lenses available anywhere. It needs a very tough test to separate them and further, since the only noticeable difference is corner sharpness, a portrait is unlikely to show that at all.

In practical terms, the upside of the 2.8 Mk2 is that it is one stop faster and can take a 2x extender yet still deliver a very high standard of sharpness and retain AF. The downside is double the weight and price. That's it - everything else, both in terms of optical performance and mechanical function, is so close as makes no odds.

This is pretty remarkable result for the 2.8 Mk2 lens, which you would usually expect to get noticeably beaten by an f/4 design, and IQ start to fall apart with an extender attached. With every other 2.8 version, that's what happens.

I don't know that you wouldn't be able to see the difference - i mean what about the bokeh - how does that compare to both, does the extra DOF on the f/4 version make the portrait not 'pop' as much, after all you should be able to easily tell the difference in background blur from f/4 to f/2.8 at a subject 4 metres away given there is a third more dof at f/4 right?

It's not necessarily all about sharpness, although it does seem to be what everyone focusses on.
 
I don't know that you wouldn't be able to see the difference - i mean what about the bokeh - how does that compare to both, does the extra DOF on the f/4 version make the portrait not 'pop' as much, after all you should be able to easily tell the difference in background blur from f/4 to f/2.8 at a subject 4 metres away given there is a third more dof at f/4 right?

It's not necessarily all about sharpness, although it does seem to be what everyone focusses on.

Best comparison I can find Joe, and it's not between exactly the lenses you're asking about, though very similar http://www.wlcastleman.com/equip/reviews/aps-c_port/bokeh/200mm/index.htm There's more on William Castleman's site if you dig around.

I think it shows that bokeh, as a characteristic of lens design, is a very subtle and subjective business. Of all the factors that affect background blurring - f/number, focal length and field of view, subject distance and background separation - individual lens design is the least significant.

Probably aperture shape is the most obvious differentiator. The other one, and it's not clear in the comparsions above, is CA bokeh - light greenish/magenta fringing around out of focus highlights. One lens that is notably neutral in this respect is the new Sigma 120-300 2.8 OS, which is another zoom that should perhaps be on the shopping list here - heck of a good lens for £2k.
 
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yea so if weight is the factor. why do you have a f2,8 to begin with?

i stand by what i said, it doesnt make sense at all to own both f2.8 and f4.

Aside from what others have said, I'll be keeping the f/4 because:

It's compact and can fit into a pocket - the f/2.8 can't.
Backup.
Remote camera work.

And a few other reasons including, yet again, redundancy.

Just because you don't have the breadth of vision to understand the potential use for a second 70-200, it doesn't mean that there isn't one.
 
.... One lens that is notably neutral in this respect is the new Sigma 70-300 2.8 OS, which is another zoom that should perhaps be on the shopping list here - heck of a good lens for £2k.

I think that you mean the new 120-300 OS Hops, and just to freak mendoza out even further, that's on the upgrade list as well if it performs in AF terms as it's been reported to. If not then it's going to be a 400mm non IS.
 
Best comparison I can find Joe, and it's not between exactly the lenses you're asking about, though very similar http://www.wlcastleman.com/equip/reviews/aps-c_port/bokeh/200mm/index.htm There's more on William Castleman's site if you dig around.

I think it shows that bokeh, as a characteristic of lens design, is a very subtle and subjective business. Of all the factors that affect background blurring - f/number, focal length and field of view, subject distance and background separation - individual lens design is the least significant.

ahh but those are all at 2.8

I want to see the difference at 2.8 and f/4 at 200mm -if what you are saying is true then you could take an f/4 shot with the 70-200 2.8 IS mark 2 and it would look very undistinguishable from an f/4 shot with the f/4 version.

But how much better does a shot at 2.8 look? does the subject pop loads more - thats the comparison i'd like to see
 
Aside from what others have said, I'll be keeping the f/4 because:

It's compact and can fit into a pocket - the f/2.8 can't.
Backup.
Remote camera work.

And a few other reasons including, yet again, redundancy.

Just because you don't have the breadth of vision to understand the potential use for a second 70-200, it doesn't mean that there isn't one.

What size pockets do you have? It's not as big as the f/2.8, but no way can you suggest it's pocket sized!
 
Sorry not sure what you mean??

He's taking the mick. IS stands for Image Stabilisation, which is VR (Vibration Reduction) in Nikon and OS (Optical Stabilisation) in Sigma.
 
What size pockets do you have? It's not as big as the f/2.8, but no way can you suggest it's pocket sized!

Having used both, I can quite happily suggest that the f/2.8 is nowhere near as compact or pocketable as the f/4.
 
Having used both, I can quite happily suggest that the f/2.8 is nowhere near as compact or pocketable as the f/4.

I tried the f/4 in Jessops and bought the f/2.8. I can agree that the f/2.8 is bigger, I never suggested it wasn't. But the f/4 isn't pocket sized that's all.
 
I tried the f/4 in Jessops and bought the f/2.8. I can agree that the f/2.8 is bigger, I never suggested it wasn't. But the f/4 isn't pocket sized that's all.

depends on your pockets!!!! I have actually carried it in a pocket, my coat pocket fits it quite nicely
 
Ditto - it fits in mine with no problems. Just wear the right clothing for the job! :)
 
not everyone has a backup body to use at the same time, some have the backup body in the car in case one breaks. Same thing with the lens, if it breaks you have a backup

Yea so how can u use a f2.8 anf f4 at the same time:bonk:

LOL, that's like saying "ignoring the lower aperture, what does the f2.8 do better? nothing that i can see"

Ahh so the weight and size of a lens affects the soul purpose of taking a picture? i.e. IQ, sharpness, contrast etc? sweet i diddnt know that! Does a lighter smaller lens produce better images?:bang:


It's about measuring up pro's and cons. If the IQ is way better on the 2.8 than the f/4 then I'd be willing to suffer the size and weight. When choosing a product you don't just go by one factor, at least i don't. I see the size and weight of the 2.8 as one of it's downsides and I'd like to know if the pro's of the lens outweigh this downside by seeing the IQ compared.

pretty straightforward I think

But the way you produce yourself is that you said weight and size is a huge factor. Like i said, no matter how earth shattering the iq is for this lens against a f2.8, it wont make it weigh less or look smaller. You either accept the weight and size or you dont

in bold.
 
Yea so how can u use a f2.8 anf f4 at the same time

you lost me there

Ahh so the weight and size of a lens affects the soul purpose of taking a picture? i.e. IQ, sharpness, contrast etc? sweet i diddnt know that! Does a lighter smaller lens produce better images?

you lost me there

But the way you produce yourself is that you said weight and size is a huge factor. Like i said, no matter how earth shattering the iq is for this lens against a f2.8, it wont make it weigh less or look smaller. You either accept the weight and size or you dont

no, you measure the output of the lens against it's weight and size. You decide is the extra stop and the potential smaller dof worth the extra weight and size. If so you buy it, if not you don't.

Some of us are trying to ascertain if the lens produces images that are of a quality that is worth putting up with the weight and size. Not sure why you are having such a hard time computing this, it's very straight forward.
 
you lost me there



you lost me there



no, you measure the output of the lens against it's weight and size. You decide is the extra stop and the potential smaller dof worth the extra weight and size. If so you buy it, if not you don't.

Some of us are trying to ascertain if the lens produces images that are of a quality that is worth putting up with the weight and size. Not sure why you are having such a hard time computing this, it's very straight forward.
The highlighted part is what it all boils down to. But your wondering more about IQ then the actual extra stop and dof it gives you. You dont need to look at side by side comparisions if your main purpose is to see what f2.8 and teh dof looks like.

just look at the many millions of pics taken at that apparture to make a decison on yourself.

At the end of the day, if you need the extra stop. there is nothing else that beats the mk2. Get it if you need the extra stop otherwise dont and be happy with the f4
 
just look at the many millions of pics taken at that apparture to make a decison on yourself.

No, i want to see 2 side by side because I want to be able to compare directly. I don't want to look at different examples, I want to look at the same example to get a better judge of it.

Why are you so against me getting what I want? :lol:
 
LOL im not mate. just trying to understand your reasoning mate. Man just cough up the money and buy the mk2. you wont be disappointed with it!

come on!! you know you want one ;)
 
ahh but those are all at 2.8

I want to see the difference at 2.8 and f/4 at 200mm -if what you are saying is true then you could take an f/4 shot with the 70-200 2.8 IS mark 2 and it would look very undistinguishable from an f/4 shot with the f/4 version.

But how much better does a shot at 2.8 look? does the subject pop loads more - thats the comparison i'd like to see

Yes, all f/2.8, but they do show that bokeh hasn't got that much to do with individual lens design beyond focal length and aperture (I expect bokeh purists to disagree ;)). And so yes, if you compared both those lenses at the same focal lemgth and f/number, I doubt that you could tell them apart.

But if you want to see the difference in focus pop and background blur etc between f/2.8 and f/4, then you can do that with any lens.
 
Yes, all f/2.8, but they do show that bokeh hasn't got that much to do with individual lens design beyond focal length and aperture (I expect bokeh purists to disagree ;)). And so yes, if you compared both those lenses at the same focal lemgth and f/number, I doubt that you could tell them apart.

But if you want to see the difference in focus pop and background blur etc between f/2.8 and f/4, then you can do that with any lens.

not any ;)

i can't do it with my f/4 IS :)
 
not any ;)

i can't do it with my f/4 IS :)

Joe, you have a bag full of fast lenses. Take your 85 1.8 and try it on that - the relative difference will be the same. For every change of one f/stop, the diameter of out of focus highlights should change by a factor of 1.4x, in line with exposure theory.

If you want a big bokeh portrait lens for a 5D2 though, then get a 135L 2. Possibly the ultimate bokeh machine, and perfect partner to a 70-200 4 :thumbs: Some more pics for you http://www.wlcastleman.com/equip/reviews/aps-c_port/bokeh/135mm/index.htm If you check the size of of the background highlights there, they fit the 1.4x theory quite well.
 
Joe, you have a bag full of fast lenses. Take your 85 1.8 and try it on that - the relative difference will be the same. For every change of one f/stop, the diameter of out of focus highlights should change by a factor of 1.4x, in line with exposure theory.

If you want a big bokeh portrait lens for a 5D2 though, then get a 135L 2. Possibly the ultimate bokeh machine, and perfect partner to a 70-200 4 :thumbs: Some more pics for you http://www.wlcastleman.com/equip/reviews/aps-c_port/bokeh/135mm/index.htm If you check the size of of the background highlights there, they fit the 1.4x theory quite well.

I did try it with my 85 actually, i tried it at 2.8 and 4 but it's at 85 so i wasn't sure how much difference there would be at 200mm

i would still really like to see the difference between the 70-200's though, call me pedantic but i just do :-)

don't talk to me about the 135 L!!! i keep convincing myslef i shouldn't swap my 70-200 for one
 
135L is one of the best lenses ever, must admit though not using at much now with the Mk II 70-200
 
135L is one of the best lenses ever, must admit though not using at much now with the Mk II 70-200

digitelRev did a review of it. said it was a great lens.

its unfair to compare it with a mk2 though because mk2 is a zoom lens and the 135L is not
 
my mk2 lens is soo awsome that it showed and highlighted my wifes highlights on her hair lol quality
 
At the end of the day, if you need the extra stop. there is nothing else that beats the mk2. Get it if you need the extra stop otherwise dont and be happy with the f4

But the f4 isn't the only option as a used Mk1 also produces very good images.

Just because YOU have the latest, greatest lens, it doesn't mean that it's perfect for everybody.

Steve
 
Jelster said:
But the f4 isn't the only option as a used Mk1 also produces very good images.

Just because YOU have the latest, greatest lens, it doesn't mean that it's perfect for everybody.

Steve

What I mean is if you need f2.8 get that. Dunno what your going on about mate.
 
What I mean is if you need f2.8 get that. Dunno what your going on about mate.

A used Mk1 f2.8 is STILL a good option, and about £600 less than the Mk2. Some people cannot afford that sort of cash on a lens that will not be used every weekend.

The fact that there is a new model, doesn't mean the old one is suddenly a pile a poop.....
 
As it happens I have two very similar shots (Not the same, but the same subject and location).

1. 70-200mm F4 IS & F4


2. 70-200mm F2.8 IS II @ F2.8


The sharpness one the MkII IS is astounding wide open - far superior to the MK1 IS I had.
 
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A used Mk1 f2.8 is STILL a good option, and about £600 less than the Mk2. Some people cannot afford that sort of cash on a lens that will not be used every weekend.

The fact that there is a new model, doesn't mean the old one is suddenly a pile a poop.....

show me a post where i said the mk1 was a pile of poop :shrug:
 
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