The 2014 Season F1 Thread

It's not just the points from Melbourne. If Red Bull are confident their numbers are demonstrably correct, but don't challenge it, they will have to live with it for the rest of the season. Worse, they will have to live with uncertainty about their performance envelope for the rest of the season, web cause they won't know exactly how their measurements differ from the FIA's.

Planning their race strategy and tactics would be seriously compromised. I don't think they have much if an option.
 
Jimmy_Lemon said:
Why? This is Redbull, they will know how important that flow is so will have pushed it to the limit and probably have spent a fortune getting it precisely right....to then be told you have to turn it down because the "official" figures are showing most people being "wrong" then I can see why they would go with the "I am right, you are not" approach.
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Because like all the teams they are obliged to obey the instructions of the FIA. If they want to play fast and loose they can't cry when they get their hand smacked.

They should have complied with the instruction (like the other teams) and complained afterward if they felt they could prove otherwise, but ultimately, if the FIA says that their sensor readout is the only one that is allowed, then it's the only one allowed.
 
But what if the fia sensor was wrong?

I'm not a big fan of redbull but I see their point. It's like getting stopped for speeding by a policeman with a faulty speed gun.
 
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neil_g said:
But what if the fia sensor was wrong?

I'm not a big fan of redbull but I see their point. It's like getting stopped for speeding by a policeman with a faulty speed gun.
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Then it would surely be wrong for all the teams, and I'm pretty sure the teams have technical staff with the necessary skills to test for it. I think it's more likely Red Bull are doing their usual push the feature as far as they can and want to have their own sensor that can be pushed an extra 0.9% when compared to the other one.

It's got to be the same one for all the teams to remain fair.
 
Dave1 said:
Then it would surely be wrong for all the teams, and I'm pretty sure the teams have technical staff with the necessary skills to test for it. I think it's more likely Red Bull are doing their usual push the feature as far as they can and want to have their own sensor that can be pushed an extra 0.9% when compared to the other one.

It's got to be the same one for all the teams to remain fair.
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Because one sensor is wrong doesn't mean to say all others are/are not.

Who's to say RBs wasn't from a faulty batch.
 
neil_g said:
Because one sensor is wrong doesn't mean to say all others are/are not.

Who's to say RBs wasn't from a faulty batch.
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I would think it's likely the sensors are going to be from a batch of one, and probably a bespoke design specifically for F1.

Again, if Red Bull feel the item is faulty they should have said so on Saturday when they were told to replace the non-authorised sensor with the FIA one, not just ignore the instruction.

Same with the instruction during the race, ignoring the FIA instruction to reduce fuel flow was always only going to have one result, only the arrogance of Red Bull thought otherwise.

With any rules, you comply with the referee and then argue the toss afterwards. What was the worst that could have happened by complying during the race? Perhaps lose one position to a faster car rather than being disqualified.
 
Unless the FIA device fails its calibration, Red Bull are toast. Someone in RB or Renault made the call that their sensor was right and the FIA one was wrong and Horner backed his man (who may soon be looking for another job).
 
I don't think they'd appeal it if they had a sniff they were in the wrong. They'd take the dq as a slap and move on (look at the other slaps they've had and not appealed), after all they weren't expecting to complete the race at all.
 
GeeJay57 said:
Unless the FIA device fails its calibration, Red Bull are toast. Someone in RB or Renault made the call that their sensor was right and the FIA one was wrong and Horner backed his man (who may soon be looking for another job).
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There are plenty over at lotus...
 
I'm no conspiracy theorist, but professional motor racing is a sphere of human behaviour where advantageous things very seldom happen by accident ;)
 
neil_g said:
I don't think they'd appeal it if they had a sniff they were in the wrong. They'd take the dq as a slap and move on (look at the other slaps they've had and not appealed), after all they weren't expecting to complete the race at all.
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I'm not so sure, Red Bull have always pushed the boundaries and bent the rules to suit, I would think even if they thought though were 99% wrong they would still appeal on the 1% chance they might win.

The appeal is only money, after all.
 
Here is why they had there points removed
http://www.espn.co.uk/australia/motorsport/story/149695.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

They were told to revert to the friday sensor (which was out of calibration, this is an assumption with an offset to correct the inaccuraces or stop the interferance with the sample rate) when the saturday sensor failed
they chose to use their sensor instead of the offical one
This is not allowed unless it is sanctioned by the fia for obvious cheating reasons
This was not sanctioned
They ignored the stewards to turn the flow down (same instruction to other teams)
The appeal is basically you are wrong we are right
There chances zero

But the arguments over the fuel sensors is going to be flowing back and forth through out this season
The teams wont stand together so the questionable sensors will stay and cause mayhem

Botas did well yo for Williams
Seb got webbers old car again
Ferrari are bumbling round until they can copy someones ideas like previous years
This race was no indication of whats coming but its nice to see the macs running a car that may stand a chance
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112966
stewards report in full
 
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neil_g said:
But what if the fia sensor was wrong?

I'm not a big fan of redbull but I see their point. It's like getting stopped for speeding by a policeman with a faulty speed gun.
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They were told to change the sensor and apply a calibration figure which they didn't do. As such they delivered more fuel to the engine than the allowed amount, which is a performance benefit.

I believe they gambled on a performance benefit due to their poor running in preseason testing and didn't get away with it. Sounds like they were pushing throughout the whole of the practice and qualifying sessions, so gaining an unfair advantage over other teams who did follow FIA advice.

Disqualification therefore is the correct result under the rules that they race to.
 
Byker28i said:
They were told to change the sensor and apply a calibration figure which they didn't do. As such they delivered more fuel to the engine than the allowed amount, which is a performance benefit.

I believe they gambled on a performance benefit due to their poor running in preseason testing and didn't get away with it. Sounds like they were pushing throughout the whole of the practice and qualifying sessions, so gaining an unfair advantage over other teams who did follow FIA advice.

Disqualification therefore is the correct result under the rules that they race to.
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Quite true
Red bulls argument is that the fia sensor isnt reliable
To win this argument they will need the support of the other teams and how likley is that ???
 
neil_g said:
But what if the fia sensor was wrong?

I'm not a big fan of redbull but I see their point. It's like getting stopped for speeding by a policeman with a faulty speed gun.
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If the FIA sensor is wrong/fails there is a back up system in place (obviously if there wasnt there would be massive outbreak of sensor failure) that uses calculation from the other on board sensors and measurements to determine the flow rate
This will have been used I am sure to back up the FIA stance
red bull isnt known for bending rules is it?
 
Well, not turning down Danny's fuel flow rate is one way of stopping him from beating Vettel....
 
If this had happened to webber, everyone would've said it was on purpose...
 
If the sensors are inaccurate then RB needs all the teams behind them to proove it to the FIA
Mercedes engine boss Andy Cowell, said the way the fuel flow is measured is "accurate and reliable". 1 down then
I dont think maclarean will enter the debate especially on red bulls side Two on the podium says a lot there 2 down then
Ferrari as always will back the FIA inspite of gaining more points 3 down then
Mercs and ferrari supply how many teams with engines thats 7 teams to 4 in favour of the FIA sensor (today that is )

On the FIA side
Charlie Whiting said he advised Red Bull repeatedly throughout the race weekend to "take the necessary steps" to comply with the rules.
"If they had followed the advice we gave them at the time, we would not have had a problem and they would not have been penalised," he said.

Dosnt look good for the appeal but this is F1 so they could well win it
 
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Bernie is writing to the teams to see if the cars can be made louder
Expect amplifyers and speakers on the rear wing with a tape of a v12 playing
Should fit in with all the other circus acts
 
Yves Geza said:
I'm no conspiracy theorist, but professional motor racing is a sphere of human behaviour where advantageous things very seldom happen by accident ;)
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So true!

I like what NASCAR do, if any part fails inspection they confiscate it and put it on the counter in their hauler so all the other teams can have a good look and take measurements! They will also change the rules mid-season, even in the middle of a race weekend if they deem it necessary. Imagine that in F1.
 
fuzzyedges said:
Bernie is writing to the teams to see if the cars can be made louder
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What they should do is go back to naturally aspirated 3500cc V10 or V12 engines with no rev limit. Those would sound good.
 
It looks like Red Bull-5hit is going to struggle if they do appeal (as it appears no appeal made yet).

Red Bull out in the cold as rivals back FIA

Red Bull, which has until Thursday midday to lodge an appeal against Daniel Ricciardo's disqualification in Melbourne, appears isolated in its protests against the FIA's fuel-sensoring equipment.

At the core of Red Bull's protests are claims the equipment is unreliable. However, its position has been weakened by support given to the FIA by rivals Mercedes and Ferrari.

Under FIA rules, teams cannot replace approved FIA equipment with their own, which is what Red Bull did. So while 21 cars, including Ricciardo's team-mate Sebastain Vettel, worked with the FIA system, Red Bull chose to use their own monitoring on Ricciardo.

Stefano Domenicali, the Ferrari team principal, said: "We need to rely on the fact that it is a situation that is well managed by the FIA. We have the FIA that will do their job and I am sure there will not be a problem at all."

That position was almost immediately supported by Mercedes' Toto Wolff. "The FIA is obviously controlling fuel flow and checking with all the teams, and it is a question of learning by doing it between the FIA and the teams," he said. "The fuel-flow meter is an FIA system and this needs to be integrated in the cars. This is a learning process where the teams support the FIA and vice versa."


Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/150031.html#IAGxLOJGRPfGkL8r.99
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No surprise that those who stand to gain from Riccardo's exclusion won't be helping out!
 
Pressure is building for the teams to artifically make the cars sound louder
I wish they would do something about the trackside audio for television so I can hear the cars and not edwards wetting his pants at every non event
 
fuzzyedges said:
I wish they would do something about the trackside audio for television so I can hear the cars and not edwards wetting his pants at every non event
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You'll have to subscribe to Sky then ;).

The sound mixing was much better than the BBC one last weekend (the cars could actually be heard on the soundtrack).
 
Dave1 said:
You'll have to subscribe to Sky then ;).

The sound mixing was much better than the BBC one last weekend (the cars could actually be heard on the soundtrack).
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Not until F1 becomes a race over entertainment
Bernie is for the first time talking about retirement, maybe being shut out of office plus the bribe thing has got to him, The hole he will leave behind him might not be all that bad in the long run
I actually turned off the sound edwards was that bad some one should tell him that we watch on telly so there is no need to explain what I can see at least 3 times When I turned it back on because I was missing the in car radio he was talking over that as well prat
 
It could be worse if Legard was still commentating, on the other side I did hear Brundle doing his normal routine.....same old patter just in 2014 style

I don't know if this allowed......so apologies in advance but here's the start of Sundays race from the stands :


Seems kind of a non event once the cars get away
 
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Now I could live with that noise the wheezing and grunting
The camreas are there where is the audio from the bbc I hope they sort it out for the Malaysian or a lot of fans will turn there backs on F1
Have they got the mics turned down from the V8 days or what
 
fuzzyedges said:
Now I could live with that noise the wheezing and grunting
The camreas are there where is the audio from the bbc I hope they sort it out for the Malaysian or a lot of fans will turn there backs on F1
Have they got the mics turned down from the V8 days or what
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Seems the BBC turned up the commentators microphones so they were overbearing all the track noise and exhaust tones.
 
onomatopoeia said:
I like what NASCAR do, if any part fails inspection they confiscate it and put it on the counter in their hauler so all the other teams can have a good look and take measurements!
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Love it too! I'd never heard that, but it beats all the Chinese whispers and rumours and late night conspiratorial phone calls I used to have to make to find out how we were losing! :naughty: :D

Nod said:
No surprise that those who stand to gain from Riccardo's exclusion won't be helping out!
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As in, "Thank you for cheating us! Let's help you to cheat us some more in this big money game!" Why should they?

onomatopoeia said:
What they should do is go back to naturally aspirated 3500cc V10 or V12 engines with no rev limit. Those would sound good.
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Maybe but i prefer the new traction-breaking-out-of-the-corner torque! And anyway, this clever, hybrid power harvesting might benefit all of us car users in the future!

Dear old Brian Hart died in January. He was a fabulous engineer and engine builder but he said of the unlimited free-revving Formula 1 engines that the pistons just vibrated a bit up and down in the bores. That's not a proper engine!

Anyway this year's cars seem to sound a bit like either the weirdo Howmet gas turbine sports car of 1967 or the Chaparral 2J sucker car that had two engines - the big and little ones - with different noises!

They sound interesting! :clap:
 
fuzzyedges said:
"........When I turned it back on because I was missing the in car radio he was talking over that as well prat
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Best thing that could happen to those radio snippets!

Commentators stopping mid-word for some totally inane conversation or burst of static broadcast hours after the event.

As for the car noise, at least you can now hear the presenters in the daft pit area.
 
So the appeal is made.

Red Bull formally lodges appeal

Red Bull has confirmed it has formally launched an appeal against the disqualification of Daniel Ricciardo from the Australian Grand Prix.

Ricciardo crossed the line in second, which would have made him the first Australian to finish on the Albert Park podium, but was thrown out of the race in the evening as it emerged Red Bull had ignored an FIA warning about fuel-flow sensors. After immediately serving notice of their intention to appeal, the team were then given 96 hours to process their application, and did so just ahead of Thursday's deadline via the Austrian motor sport federation.

The FIA insists the team was made aware several times that it was breaking the rules during the race, but Red Bull believes the FIA's fuel-flow meters supplied had shown "inconsistencies". The hearing will now go before the FIA's Court of Appeal at a date yet to be determined.


Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/australia/motorsport/story/150227.html#mAs6tpArQueqZViX.99
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Barso said:
It could be worse if Legard was still commentating, on the other side I did hear Brundle doing his normal routine.....same old patter just in 2014 style

I don't know if this allowed......so apologies in advance but here's the start of Sundays race from the stands :


Seems kind of a non event once the cars get away
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Sounds like any other form of car racing series now, except NASCAR. A friend was at the Melbourne Grand Prix and said the noise was such a disappointment; it ruined the atmosphere!
 
mindcrime said:
Sounds like any other form of car racing series now, except NASCAR. A friend was at the Melbourne Grand Prix and said the noise was such a disappointment; it ruined the atmosphere!
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I was there too and to be honest the Porsche Cup cars sound better than the F1 cars.
 
Yves Geza said:
Dear old Brian Hart died in January. He was a fabulous engineer and engine builder but he said of the unlimited free-revving Formula 1 engines that the pistons just vibrated a bit up and down in the bores. That's not a proper engine!
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I like high revving engines. The fact I run Imp engined stuff rather than A-series based stuff might give an indication of this ;)

That said, I am not unhappy with the sound of the new engines and like the fact the cars squirm about a lot more than before. One race isn't enough to judge how it will all work out, it needs a variety of tracks and I don't think it will be possible to form a conclusion until September after Spa and Monza. Spa, because it's Spa, and Monza because it is the fastest circuit both in terms of average speed and top speed, so the cars spend a huge part of the lap on full throttle and nowadays it's about the only place you see the cars with minimal rear wings. Doubt we'll see speeds of over 215mph approaching Parabolica ever again though (feel free to quote this back to me and tell me I'm wrong after the race, I'll be delighted).
 
onomatopoeia said:
I like high revving engines. The fact I run Imp engined stuff rather than A-series based stuff might give an indication of this ;)

That said, I am not unhappy with the sound of the new engines and like the fact the cars squirm about a lot more than before. One race isn't enough to judge how it will all work out, it needs a variety of tracks and I don't think it will be possible to form a conclusion until September after Spa and Monza. Spa, because it's Spa, and Monza because it is the fastest circuit both in terms of average speed and top speed, so the cars spend a huge part of the lap on full throttle and nowadays it's about the only place you see the cars with minimal rear wings. Doubt we'll see speeds of over 215mph approaching Parabolica ever again though (feel free to quote this back to me and tell me I'm wrong after the race, I'll be delighted).
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Once upon a time a screamer used to be any engine that could get near 10,000 rpm - like the early DFVs or an R23 cammed Imp and no DFV based donkey ever exceeded 13,000 IIRC, not even the last funky bunk ones!

BTW, Formula Junior full race A-series would apparently get to 8,000 rpm but I still hate them; I'll happily swop my Mini for your Clan

An Australian friend [who's actually a member here] told me "I just worked out that the 2014 race took less than 3 minutes longer than the 2013 race. With one less lap, but 4 laps under safety car - I figure a net difference of 90s, or ~2% of race time. This with cars that are far from sorted.

And yes, the cars do get rather loose when the drivers were careless with the right boot.

I would be surprised if they don't do a race faster at Monza than last year. For one, by then they will have sorted the engine side and will, probably, have found some of the missing downforce. 370km/h/230mph into the first chicane!"

He's a good engineer with a lot of understanding of Formula 1 ... You want to bet our cars on that V max? :naughty::runaway:
 
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