Tesla suppress thousands of driving range complaints

[badlywornroy]

Surely not ?

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Elon Musk selling pork pies? Shurely shum mishtake...

 

[Box Brownie]

Surely not ?

Will it come back to bite Tesla in the arse........akin to the diesel engine programming fiasco???

 

[srichards]

This video is a good explainer of it all.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYSOGCrAGAw

 

[badlywornroy]

This video is a good explainer of it all.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYSOGCrAGAw

Aargh ! Life's too short to listen to that guy ? I would sooner stick pins in my eyes than sit through all of it.

 

[Sky]

It's the batteries - they're crap and nowhere near as good as the manufacturers/designers say.

I have the same issues with my wheelchair batteries. The manufacturer quotes a range of twenty five miles, but the truth is it won't achieve anywhere near that unless you're an anorexic dwarf or a twelve year old ballerina and even then you'd need to be on the flat with the wind behind you. The real range is well under ten miles and you'll only get that on flat ground and a warm day.

 

[Pound Coin]

Isn't it different from camera batteries nowadays.

I expected 3-400 from my OM-1 given the specs, but don't fret at 1,000.

 

[srichards]

It's nothing to do with the batteries. It's more to do with the rating system and how you show range and whether you show the EPA or NEDC or WLTP rated range or the calculated average from the actual car. These all give different answers to how far you can drive and will depend on whether the same journeys are done at consistent speeds and ambient temperatures.

CIPA average on camera batteries is also a specific way of using the camera so if you don't do it the same way you get different results.

 

[ecoleman]

Shock Horror. EV Car not as Environmentally friendly as

It's nothing to do with the batteries. It's more to do with the rating system and how you show range and whether you show the EPA or NEDC or WLTP rated range or the calculated average from the actual car. These all give different answers to how far you can drive and will depend on whether the same journeys are done at consistent speeds and ambient temperatures.

CIPA average on camera batteries is also a specific way of using the camera so if you don't do it the same way you get different results.

As far as I see it, it's no different to the claimed MPG on petrol/diesel cars. They are measured in a controlled environment and rarely do you get the claimed mileage in the real world with differing temperatures, wind, hills, rolling resistance etc.

Cold temperatures are going to impact any Lithium battery whether that is a camera battery or a car battery. The colder it is the less you're going to get out of it.

But hey, are we surprised that EV aren't as environmentally friendly as claimed.

 

[boogie man]

Shock Horror. EV Car not as Environmentally friendly as


As far as I see it, it's no different to the claimed MPG on petrol/diesel cars. They are measured in a controlled environment and rarely do you get the claimed mileage in the real world with differing temperatures, wind, hills, rolling resistance etc.

Cold temperatures are going to impact any Lithium battery whether that is a camera battery or a car battery. The colder it is the less you're going to get out of it.

But hey, are we surprised that EV aren't as environmentally friendly as claimed.

The mileage range is also calculated with minimal load on the battery. As soon as you use wipers, lights, indicators. etc it’ll reduce.

 

[JonathanRyan]

The mileage range is also calculated with minimal load on the battery. As soon as you use wipers, lights, indicators. etc it’ll reduce.

I mean, no....that's totally not how EVs work

Technically wipers and light etc will reduce the range just like they do in an ice car. That's because they work in exactly the same way - the 12v battery runs the ancillaries and it's recharged by the HV battery/regen braking. Just like in an Ice it's essentially recharged powered by petrol bc it infinitesimally increases the friction of the car. High beam headlamps should use no more than 75w (I just Googled it) which means for every 4 - 5 hours I leave high beam on (and honestly, I can't imagine a journey where I did that) it would reduce range by 1 mile. I honestly can't be bothered to work out the drain from windscreen wipers. A strong headwind would make more difference just like it would in ICE.

"Fuel" efficiency in the EU is actually governed by the WLTP which covers both EVs and dinosaur powered vehicles. The story about Tesla cancelling appointments secretly is shocking - but the estimates of range have nothing really to do with the WLTP figures which are the ones (or rather their predecessors) that VW lied about.

I did my longest journey on a single charge the other day - Kev always reckons that with a full tank he can do 217 miles. I logged 210 miles of real world driving to Brighton and back (motorway, horrid traffic, dodgy multi storey manoeuvring, embarrassing a Ferrari that was showing off) and had 25 to spare when I got home. And I had the wipers and lights on.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

The mileage range is also calculated with minimal load on the battery. As soon as you use wipers, lights, indicators. etc it’ll reduce.

It would make sense if all claims for battery life were for the worst case scenario.

Unfortunately, manufactures doing this would be a "turkey voting for christmas" moment.

 

[JonathanRyan]

It would make sense if all claims for battery life were for the worst case scenario.

Unfortunately, manufactures doing this would be a "turkey voting for christmas" moment.

Also, kind of illegal. They are required by law to use WLTP just like all cars. It's odd to suggest they should also provide a "most pessimistic" figure just like other cars don't.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Also, kind of illegal. They are required by law to use WLTP just like all cars. It's odd to suggest they should also provide a "most pessimistic" figure just like other cars don't.

I doubt it would be illegal, they'd just have to supply two figures instead of one.

In any case, I was thinking about battery life for all products, not just cars.

 

[Nod]

It would make sense if all claims for battery life were for the worst case scenario.

Unfortunately, manufactures doing this would be a "turkey voting for christmas" moment.

How far do you take "worst case scenario"? Continuous uphill 25% gradient at top speed with a trailer?

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

How far do you take "worst case scenario"?

That's a good question. For cars, it might be the number of miles carrying four adults with luggage over a course including a fixed number of gradients at an average speed of 40 MPH. I don't know exactly how the WLTP works or whether it gets modified for electric propulsion.

 

[Nod]

That scenario is far from worst case.

As long as any testing is done (as close as possible) using the same parameters so direct comparisons between makes/models/variants can be made, it's valid, whether that be in optimum conditions or a (real) worst case scenario.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

That scenario is far from worst case.

As long as any testing is done (as close as possible) using the same parameters so direct comparisons between makes/models/variants can be made, it's valid, whether that be in optimum conditions or a (real) worst case scenario.

I agree.

 

[boogie man]

I mean, no....that's totally not how EVs work

Technically wipers and light etc will reduce the range just like they do in an ice car. That's because they work in exactly the same way - the 12v battery runs the ancillaries and it's recharged by the HV battery/regen braking. Just like in an Ice it's essentially recharged powered by petrol bc it infinitesimally increases the friction of the car. High beam headlamps should use no more than 75w (I just Googled it) which means for every 4 - 5 hours I leave high beam on (and honestly, I can't imagine a journey where I did that) it would reduce range by 1 mile. I honestly can't be bothered to work out the drain from windscreen wipers. A strong headwind would make more difference just like it would in ICE.

"Fuel" efficiency in the EU is actually governed by the WLTP which covers both EVs and dinosaur powered vehicles. The story about Tesla cancelling appointments secretly is shocking - but the estimates of range have nothing really to do with the WLTP figures which are the ones (or rather their predecessors) that VW lied about.

I did my longest journey on a single charge the other day - Kev always reckons that with a full tank he can do 217 miles. I logged 210 miles of real world driving to Brighton and back (motorway, horrid traffic, dodgy multi storey manoeuvring, embarrassing a Ferrari that was showing off) and had 25 to spare when I got home. And I had the wipers and lights on.

So it sounds like the actual range figures are more realistic than I thought they’d be. Presumably they’re much father off in winter though, when using the heating/blower, rear window demister, heated seats and other more demanding loads.

 

[Nod]

Depends. In Winter, when Mrs Nod has an early start, we make sure the Leaf is plugged in overnight so it prewarms the interior and battery as well as clearing the screens. It does all that on mains power rather than taking charge from the battery.

 

[JonathanRyan]

So it sounds like the actual range figures are more realistic than I thought they’d be. Presumably they’re much father off in winter though, when using the heating/blower, rear window demister, heated seats and other more demanding loads.

Yes, they are worse in winter. I think mostly that's battery chemistry but the cabin heating is a major power draw. It's why heated seats are popular in EVs - way more efficient to heat the bit you are in contact with than all the air around you.

If I drive to London (about 70 - 75 miles each way) then in Winter I'll come home with 40-45 miles left. In summer it will be 60+ - different but not terrible.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

The social problems with electric cars, as matters stand now, are that 30% of the population (those who lack off road parking) won't be able to charge them from their domestic electric supply and the average battery life may turn out to be as little as 4 years, both of which harm the poor,

So yet another tory plan which benefits the well off at the expense of the poor.

 

[boogie man]

The social problems with electric cars, as matters stand now, are that 30% of the population (those who lack off road parking) won't be able to charge them from their domestic electric supply and the average battery life may turn out to be as little as 4 years, both of which harm the poor,

So yet another tory plan which benefits the well off at the expense of the poor.

Hmmm I’m not convinced that EV’s are just a ploy to kick the poor in the dangly bits. I think there has to be a move away from ICE vehicles at some point, because there is a desperate need to cut down CO and CO2 emissions if we’re ever going to get on top of global warning. I don’t think that the current generation of EVs are the real solution though, they just happen to be a convenient stopgap (for some, and for now) but there are just too many longterm flaws attached as it stands. I do agree though, charging all these vehicles is going to be the biggest issue and will be virtually impossible for some people.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Hmmm I’m not convinced that EV’s are just a ploy to kick the poor in the dangly bits.

Nor am I - it's more that governments of the blue persuasion don't care about the less well off because they often won't vote for that party.

I think there has to be a move away from ICE vehicles at some point, because there is a desperate need to cut down CO and CO2 emissions if we’re ever going to get on top of global warning.

As someone who thinks that the average increase in temperature is a normal part of the planet's behaviour, that's a completely irrelevant issue to me.

I do agree though, charging all these vehicles is going to be the biggest issue and will be virtually impossible for some people.

Indeed.

What I fail to understand is "why electric?" If you want a basically non poluting fuel, hydrogen is plentiful, can replace hydrocarbons with few changes to the current engine technology and can be handled in a similar way to hydrocarbon fuels, so we can retain our current network of filling stations, albeit with changes to the storage and delivery facilities.

 

[Nod]

The social problems with electric cars, as matters stand now, are that 30% of the population (those who lack off road parking) won't be able to charge them from their domestic electric supply and the average battery life may turn out to be as little as 4 years, both of which harm the poor,

So yet another tory plan which benefits the well off at the expense of the poor.

Ours is coming up to 10 years old and the battery doesn't seem to have deteriorated much.

 

[JonathanRyan]

The social problems with electric cars, as matters stand now, are that 30% of the population (those who lack off road parking) won't be able to charge them from their domestic electric supply and the average battery life may turn out to be as little as 4 years, both of which harm the poor,

So yet another tory plan which benefits the well off at the expense of the poor.

Whilst it's true that at least 30% of people can't charge at home, it's not generally "the poor".

I live in a fairly deprived area of Kent but because people generally haven't wanted to live here, if you have a house is likely you have a drive. And many relatively poor people have houses rather than flats. I know very few people in wealthy areas of London who have a house let alone a drive.

Middle income and very rich are ok for charging, fairly rich not so much.

As for average battery life being 4 years, no.....

 

[boogie man]

What I fail to understand is "why electric?" If you want a basically non poluting fuel, hydrogen is plentiful, can replace hydrocarbons with few changes to the current engine technology and can be handled in a similar way to hydrocarbon fuels, so we can retain our current network of filling stations, albeit with changes to the storage and delivery facilities.

As I understand it hydrogen seems an ideal fuel on paper but it actually throws up other issues.

It’s not that cheap to produce, even though the resources to make it are plentiful (sea water for instance), as you still need electricity to make it via electrolysis. You might as well just use that electricity to charge a car battery in the first place.

It needs to be stored and/or piped at extremely high pressure to make it viable for bulk storage at service stations and for individual vehicle use. So, you’d either need to build a network of heavy duty pipework or use heavily reinforced road tankers. Plus a sturdy and potentially heavy storage tank onboard every car/van/lorry, which obviously hugely knackers its fuel efficiency.

There’s also the cost involved in compressing it, which ends up making it a poor value solution. By the time the car is actually running on hydrogen you’re only getting 40-50 percent efficiency out of its initial potential value. It doesn’t make economic sense.

I’m sure there’ll be a solution to these problems eventually or maybe even something even better will come up.

 

[LCPete]

Hmmm I’m not convinced that EV’s are just a ploy to kick the poor in the dangly bits. I think there has to be a move away from ICE vehicles at some point, because there is a desperate need to cut down CO and CO2 emissions if we’re ever going to get on top of global warning. I don’t think that the current generation of EVs are the real solution though, they just happen to be a convenient stopgap (for some, and for now) but there are just too many longterm flaws attached as it stands. I do agree though, charging all these vehicles is going to be the biggest issue and will be virtually impossible for some people.

spot on, agree we do have to reduce emissions, my issue is with current battery technology the environmental damage from mining the minerals wipes out any reduction in emissions
in any case it’s not an option for us buying an electric car at the moment is out of our budget anyway and I suspect it’s the same for many people