Talking to more experienced photographers...

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danfell555

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Dan
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No
... is SO depressing! :gag:

A little spark of optimism saying "Try your best, you'll be alright!"? No... :shake: Pretty much every photographer I've spoken to in depth about it who has had a few years of experience is really pessimistic about it all. I realised very early on I'd be facing an uphill struggle to try and make anything from photography, but they all seem to make it sound as if it's impossible!

I won't let it get me down, I'll keep pushing forward. I'm going to give it absolutely everything I have so if it does come to nothing, I'll know I tried my best. But come on... Some encouragement or advice would be nice! :shrug:

This is obviously excluding the wonderful people on this forum, everyone's great on here... Think more photographers need to join and realise that things are actually possible :)

Is this just happening to me or have other people noticed it too?

Bring on the optimism! :D
 
yes, I've noticed.

To be frank though, it's unlikely that I will ever work again (not giving you the sob story though) so I can learn and enjoy photography for me and me alone. However, I honestly think that the "I can do anything, give me a compact worth £30 and I'll do your photos" will die in the near future so it'll become a bit easier. Maybe I'm just a snob, but I've always enjoyed having my photo taken professionally and I've paid upto £50 for 1 A4 photograph. (Admittedly I'm trying to convince DH that we need some done of us)

I think, like all business, you have to find a niche in the market and with photography you have to find a niche in the market in your area.

I know that alot of photography businesses in my area a while ago were doing promotions and competitions. Things like 1st prize a shoot and a 12x10, second prize a shoot and a 8x6 and several runners up would get a free shoot. They always seemed to get good results and even the winner ones would spend more on extra prints.

Find a niche, get your name known in any way you can, don't be shy! ;)
 
Thanks! :)

I'm definitely getting my name about as much as I can! I keep seeing my work on websites I've never heard of and it makes me smile :D It's just TFCD work I've done with models so that's why I'm not angry :p

I hope the missing sob story wasn't too sad and that you're okay now! :(
 
I've found most I've spoken to are very encouraging and helpful. With the exception of one local fashion photographer.

I've been offered chances to sit in on shoots, and advice on my folio and lots of tips and bits and pieces for dealing with the industry. But then Melbourne is a very friendly place by nature.

It's definitely a long way from being all doom and gloom. If you get out there and do it, I'm sure there's more than enough work to go around.
 
Perhaps it's more the self employed aspect of it most people are warning you about? Several members of my family are self employed and also complain about how hard it can be, such as not knowing where the next job is etc

Or perhaps they're trying to ensure you don't become competition! :lol:
 
Yeah, I think a lot of it is the self employed bit. Though I do get paranoid they're trying to eliminate me before I'm even competition :p
 
Don't think this is unique to photographers or self employed folk. Sure, some ways of earning a living are harder than others, but in every walk of life there are doom and gloom merchants and there are those that never focus on problems - only solutions.
 
I think it's twofold right now. One is due to the recession with advertising budgets and architectural projects being shelved right left and centre (the industry I'm in ATM) That means less work to go round and budget cuts means less money for the jobs that are out there.

Then there is the huge influx of GWC (guy with camera) Those who have invested in a lower end DSLR from Jessops and think they can make a few quid as a photographer. We had one at work last week. Turned up passing himself off as an architectural photographer with a 450D, kit lens and a cheap flimsy tripod. Cue "of course you are dear, there's the door, it's an architectural feature you should be using"

Hopefully things will stabilise a little in the next few years and in the meantime I aim to get as good quality as I can, that's what will differentiate those who want to do it professionally from GWC.
 
MagicMynx said:
Do people really spend all that money on a DSLR, not bother learning how to use it properly and think automatically that they're a pro coz of the equipment that they have? That's nutty
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yes!
 
OK Mr Fellowes

There is plenty of work going about, we are snowed under
At 17 I did not talk to anyone I simply went and got a job as a press photographer
At 48 I still don't ask others how to do it, I simply do it, although I learn from others daily

stop the talk and get on with it................................. :):)
 
danielfellowes said:
Yeah, I think a lot of it is the self employed bit. Though I do get paranoid they're trying to eliminate me before I'm even competition :p
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Sounds like your only talking to miserable people :lol: or you may be too optimistic and folk maybe trying to warn you or help to make you more aware of the realities of turning a passion into a career.

I do agree that there are an awful lot of miserable, disparaging, and morose attitudes that can be a little misleading and depressing these days, as in all things in life, time to turn on your built in bull**** detector and figure things out for yourself.
There's alot of good people out there who offer great advice, tales of experience and tips and tricks. It's up to you how you implement it all.

Hope, faith, belief in yourself, determination combined with a healthy appetite to learn and progress are some of the key ingredients to turning your dreams into a reality.

BUT, the reality isn't all roses, there are things that you may not be thinking of or considering and this could be what your picking up on when talking with people. :shrug:
Self employment can be a hideously unsuccessful and terrorizing venture if you don't approach, maintain and respect it, there's no surprise that you will hear mixed opinion and experiences. Naivety and ignorance are killers.

Your photo's are getting better all the time Dan, it's very clear to see that you really enjoy what your doing and your keen on making progress quickly.
I have faith that you'll be where you want to be if you put your all in. :thumbs:

If your serious about developments, my key advice, along with keeping a very open mind and the 'I'll always be learning' attitude, is to never get an ego, don't let the praise go to your melon too much and keep pride calm.

The moment that you allow any of this to happen, foundations will start to crumble down around you and you'll join those miserable ney sayers in the pits of resentment and bitterness.

There is always room for improvement, there is no single approach or way of doing things in the world of the arts and above all be honest with yourself.

All IMO of course. :thumbs:
 
There are some people down here who would argue it's actually getting better for photographers now. The ideas of rights management and licensing is only really starting to take hold recently (bit behind the times you see). So photographers find it easier in many circumstances to charge a decent rate. And they can spend less time educating clients.

Just this weekend I managed to persuade a local paper that's never paid anyone, anything, ever; that I was worth hiring, and paying. So it ain't all that bad.
 
Tomas Whitehouse said:
Sounds like your only talking to miserable people :lol: or you may be too optimistic and folk maybe trying to warn you or help to make you more aware of the realities of turning a passion into a career.

I do agree that there are an awful lot of miserable, disparaging, and morose attitudes that can be a little misleading and depressing these days, as in all things in life, time to turn on your built in bull**** detector and figure things out for yourself.
There's alot of good people out there who offer great advice, tales of experience and tips and tricks. It's up to you how you implement it all.

Hope, faith, belief in yourself, determination combined with a healthy appetite to learn and progress are some of the key ingredients to turning your dreams into a reality.

BUT, the reality isn't all roses, there are things that you may not be thinking of or considering and this could be what your picking up on when talking with people. :shrug:
Self employment can be a hideously unsuccessful and terrorizing venture if you don't approach, maintain and respect it, there's no surprise that you will hear mixed opinion and experiences. Naivety and ignorance are killers.

Your photo's are getting better all the time Dan, it's very clear to see that you really enjoy what your doing and your keen on making progress quickly.
I have faith that you'll be where you want to be if you put your all in. :thumbs:

If your serious about developments, my key advice, along with keeping a very open mind and the 'I'll always be learning' attitude, is to never get an ego, don't let the praise go to your melon too much and keep pride calm.

The moment that you allow any of this to happen, foundations will start to crumble down around you and you'll join those miserable ney sayers in the pits of resentment and bitterness.

There is always room for improvement, there is no single approach or way of doing things in the world of the arts and above all be honest with yourself.

All IMO of course. :thumbs:
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That's some amazing advice, thanks :D

I do come across over-optimistic, it's just the way I am, but in my head I do know that in reality that I'm going to have to work extremely hard to get where I want to be. I stay optimistic because I know that I'm willing to work extremely hard, and I won't achieve if I don't believe! (that must be stolen from somewhere... :thinking:)

I definitely still believe I'm learning, and will be for many years to come. I'm trying out everything type of photography I can, even if I'm not interested in it as a career in it at the moment because I don't know what will happen later. Also, spreading my name about in any area of the photography world will do me good.

The only thing I'm worried about is taking on something too big, not doing a very good job, and having that stick in people's minds later on even when I've improved. But hey, what's the fun in not taking risks? :D

Thank you everybody for both the encouragement and sensible advice :)
 
I suspect it's a combination of people a bit concerned about more competition and also trying to give you a reality check. It is hard - I know because I'm doing it, but it is also possible.

1/2 of success is the attitude to succeed the rest is hard work and risk, if you have both you will make it :thumbs:

You are right to consider your ability to do a job but remember that planning and preparation will enable you to much more than you first realise.
 
danielfellowes said:
That's some amazing advice, thanks :D
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No bother at all Dan. :thumbs:

danielfellowes said:
The only thing I'm worried about is taking on something too big, not doing a very good job, and having that stick in people's minds later on even when I've improved. But hey, what's the fun in not taking risks? :D
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You and me both! I had so many worries about taking on work that I did not feel able to do properly, so I didn't. :lol:

My family (British) and my girlfriends family (Finnish), were very supportive when I turned the hobby into a career, they offered so much love and support but things got difficult sometimes when I was turning work down or not pursuing areas that I knew where out of reach at that time.
They couldn't understand why I was doing so and the pressure for me to make a bad decision was enormous.

They believed in me a little too much and wanted me to take on everything without considering my limitations, both ability and equipment related. They just didn't understand that you can't point a camera at something, hit the shutter and expect perfect results without the right thought, vision and technology.

I put my foot down though and only now they can see that it was a much wiser and more beneficial tactic in the long term.

Sounds like you've got yer head screwed on and your more than willing to put in hard graft. :thumbs:

Keep a level head, work your arse off and never be satisfied sitting on the same rung of the ladder for too long.

Keep moving, developing, progressing and enjoying every moment you can.

All the best mate :thumbs:
 
Ah, I'm in a pretty similar situation with my dad as he wants me to be doing loads of work... But the important thing for him is me getting paid for it. At this stage I need to do a lot of work for free to learn faster, but he doesn't seem to understand that the experience will benefit me a lot more than the occasional bit of extra dosh.

I'm doing my best, I know that, so I try not to let it get me down :)

There are obviously things that I would say no to on the grounds that I just wouldn't know how to do it, or don't have the equipment to do a good job. But I like to try new things so I'm working my way around different areas slowly.

Thank you again, you've really got me thinking in a positive way :)

I've now got 3 shoots in 3 days, lets see how I feel after them :D
 
You also have to take into consideration the fact that as a hobby we may love it, but when you make a hobby your main source of income it can become a chore!

I currently have a full time job and as much as I would like to take photo's for a living I doubt I ever will. I'll use it as a way of getting a bit of extra cash throughout the year but that's it :D
 
danielfellowes said:
Exactly the same as me :) Hope that business picks up for you though, guess you didn't pick the best time to start up professionally :(
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Im in a similar boat to you dainel, I am to use the next few quiet (economically) years to skill and gear up as best I can, reading and applying what i've learnt. I have also secured some saturdays with a wedding tog to assist and learn.

I think that at the end of the day people will pay you if they think you are worth it, basic philosophy I guess. The Pro's on this forum AliB, Tomas Whitehouse to name a few have worked as best they can to skill and gear up and in some respects due to the quality of their work they have created their own demand for their services. WOM, Business sense, Presentation and technical and artistic ability are all part of the skilling up process. No one said it would be easy but i'm sure it will be worth it. I also think you have to have a lot of self belief as many people will crit your work that you think is good, so taking the knocks and moving on is a big part of learning.

There is always hope but of lot of it, I think, has to come from within ;)

Just my 2 pennies.
 
tomanthony said:
I've been a professional for one year and its very hard even o get noticed. I try and try and its very soul destroying.

I just don't want to get a crappy 9-5 job

www.tomanthonyphotography.co.uk
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Have you tried putting out PR stories about yourself. Its a dog eat dog world out there. Just quickly looked at your website and it reads you are a disabled photographer expressing yourself through the medium of photography. This would be a strong enough story to get you featured in most Sunday newspapers

stew
 
HCK said:
I also think you have to have a lot of self belief as many people will crit your work that you think is good, so taking the knocks and moving on is a big part of learning.
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This is the first thing in my life I've ever had confidence in. I believe in my ability and I can see when I've done good, and when I've not done so good. Which is better than my usual approach to things I do which is just "I'm rubbish!" :(

I guess it is a little early to be guessing about what's going to happen though, I'll keep learning and learning. At some point I'll have to focus a bit more on the business side of things but I think for now that can wait as earning money's not my main objective.

I'm glad I started this thread now! :D
 
Good point you mad about the different genre's too Daniel. I spoke to my business advisor about it because it is all too easy to spread yourself too thin in each if you are not careful. The other problem with pursuing too many quite simply is budget. If I told you it would cost me £2K to advertise for 4 issues in one magazine you can see how easy it would be to blow the budget so thing simply have to be researched and prudent.
You have to research the return on investment.

His advice was to concentrate on one and put the biggest share of the budget that way but in his immortal words "Throw some s*** at the wall and see what sticks" :)
 
I don't think I'm spreading myself too thin at the moment which is good. I'm concentrating on one or two genres at a time, and seeing which I enjoy. I've got to a level I'm fairly happy with in portraiture, so now I'm concentrating on fashion and live bands. I think if I stuck to one I'd get bored fairly quickly!

I might narrow it down to one type that I want to take on as a business venture, but I'll still do a bit of other photography in my spare time for fun :)

And wow, it'll be a long time before I ever want to spend that much on advertising! For now I'll stick to a little poster in the window of a shop I work in :p
 
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