Talk Photography Forum - a discussion

Hertsman

Hertsman

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Name
Mark
Edit My Images
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Guys, Ive been on here a number of years, and have laways enjoyed the fora as a whole.
Ive bought and sold a variety of gear from here with no issues at all - snd thats a good thing obvs.

But when it comes to image sharing is where I feel the TP community falls down.

Posting pics for crit is fairly fraught anyway if you are not confident in your ability to take some crit, but , for me ,I think something is missing. Im not convinced the LIKE button is good thing if Im honest.

Ive posted a fair few images on here over the years and taken the flak/praise and learnt from it, however....

Ive done the TP52 for a years now, but gave up halfway thru this year as I felt it had become really tit for tat when it came to getting comments on your posts - now, I can, to a fair extent understand this, but it spoilt ,my enjoyment of the 52 so I stopped.

Getting to the point, I recently attended a Macro Photo day and enjpyed it a lot. Subsequently, I posted a few individual threads in the respected forums...

Four seperate threads gave me about 6 comments...not great feedback you would say ?

I felt very proud when one of my pics was promoted to an "article" and was on the front page of TP.....an image that so far has achieved the huge amount of 3 replys saying good shot ?

Im just not sure where TP is at these days...so many good pics and great togs and all we get is a "like"....

Is that all we can expect now a days ?

Disappointed of Tring,
 
Don't you know the world now survives on 'likes'

And how many 'likes'..... ;)

And copy/paste Flickr comments...

And "follow me back" Instagram comments....

I'll hold my hands up, I very rarely browse the photo sharing section. I'll pop in the discussion sections, maybe the classifieds, then I sort of run out of time & off I go......
 
If TP is now all about "Likes" then Im not sure I will be around much longer tbh.

I joined initially to buy used gear from good people, and as I learnt, I wnated to share and learn from sharing....

A "like" gives me nothing in terms of crit or otherwise......

Modern society doesnt work for me I fear.....
 
To say 'like' says nothing much - it's bit akin to bottom-licking. But some people lap it up!
 
Hertsman said:
But in reality means nothing ? Its just laziness surely ?
Click to expand...
It doesn't explain anything. It could be laziness in some cases, who knows? But it hardly counts as communication.
 
I think that crit on-line is a problem area. For a start, you don't know who you're talking to, or fully what their intention was for the image, or - in particular - how fragile their ego might be. In the light of all those things, it can be a very delicate matter.

Perhaps the trick with crit is to stress anything positive and go light on the negative. But I'd rather give crit face to face, or to someone I knew. That way it's easier to monitor the possibilty of offence.
 
Actually I think that the essential thing is to develop the ability to self-crit your work, this should advance in harness with your photography path. How is self-crit developed? By looking at the work of others and being analytical about what they've done, and why they might have done it. I don't just mean a technical assessment - an f-stop is just an f-stop - but a cultural one. Where does an image fit into the whole history of images?

And for an image of your own, what does it mean to you? Be ruthless if necessary, or as forgiving as you like - it's up to you.

Is it worth sharing, might it tell anyone anything? What's the point of it? Communication is surely the point, otherwise it's just a harmless pastime.
 
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Why do people seek critique? Are you looking for someone to point out 'flaws' - you know it's just someone else's opinion unless it's a technical critique right? Often unless you ask for c&c most are unlikely to critique for fear of offending - another issue today in general, everyone seems so easily offended. Enjoy the likes, maybe just accept that low count of likes = there was more people who viewed and didn't 'like'.
 
Is a like any different to someone saying ‘great shot’? Both are equally useless.

I don’t visit the galleries section that much, the biggest reason is how can there be much discussion when most threads are just an image link posted from Flickr? Flickr already does that function very well for me if I want to see images in genres I’m interested in so I don’t need that here.

If the OP provided some background info about the image or why/how (not settings as that isn’t that helpful) it was taken alongside image there could have more of a discussion (which is what a photography forum is about). The critque aspect can be useful but even that’s hard because you can’t set a level of skill, sometimes responses aren’t the best. I remember one image I posted. It wasn’t taken in the best light and one response was ‘wouldn’t have bothered taking it’, no further explanation to explain how to improve it. What I needed was help to improve images in the future which that response didn’t help.

To get more engagement I think there needs to be a separate clique section with a title marker of beginner/ intermediate/advanced so those who seek clique can have it aimed at their skill level. A separate section for projects or sets from an event/subject/place would be a good way to tell a story/experience. It would be nice to follow interesting project people are up to. That’s something that Flickr can’t do well and the forum could. You could have more discussion on a set of images rather than just one.
 
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Hertsman said:
Guys, Ive been on here a number of years, and have laways enjoyed the fora as a whole.
Ive bought and sold a variety of gear from here with no issues at all - snd thats a good thing obvs.

But when it comes to image sharing is where I feel the TP community falls down.

Posting pics for crit is fairly fraught anyway if you are not confident in your ability to take some crit, but , for me ,I think something is missing. Im not convinced the LIKE button is good thing if Im honest.

Ive posted a fair few images on here over the years and taken the flak/praise and learnt from it, however....

Ive done the TP52 for a years now, but gave up halfway thru this year as I felt it had become really tit for tat when it came to getting comments on your posts - now, I can, to a fair extent understand this, but it spoilt ,my enjoyment of the 52 so I stopped.

Getting to the point, I recently attended a Macro Photo day and enjpyed it a lot. Subsequently, I posted a few individual threads in the respected forums...

Four seperate threads gave me about 6 comments...not great feedback you would say ?

I felt very proud when one of my pics was promoted to an "article" and was on the front page of TP.....an image that so far has achieved the huge amount of 3 replys saying good shot ?

Im just not sure where TP is at these days...so many good pics and great togs and all we get is a "like"....

Is that all we can expect now a days ?

Disappointed of Tring,
Click to expand...


I do agree with you on the tit for tat comments on the 52, it seems to have changed a lot since last year and sadly the good guys/gals have dropped out plus if I do finish mine this year I think it will be my last one.
 
i think some people are very insecure if they need others to give them praise for there shots
most people on here don't even put there own pic as there avatar cause the want to stay anonymous
they also restrict who can see there profile as well - more mystery
i think thats so they can be keyboard warriors and gob off and feel safe
but i can assure you having worked with the military for a few years its very easy to get your personal
details and registered address no problem if you know how :))
i wonder why there is not a dislike button ?
 
I use the like button to agree with people who have the same view as me and where I see little point in labouring an (often) over laboured point.
I use the like button as a "thankyou" to people who helpfully reply to me when I have no further comment instead of quoting them and typing "thanks"
I use the like button when someone makes me chuckle but I don't want to derail a thread by quoting and saying that.
The like button is just fluffy. I find it handy.

As someone who will stop and critique photos when I get the chance, I use these criteria.
1. Is it in an area I feel comfortable passing comment? (Generally this rules out sport, nature, macro, & astro immediately) If yes,
2. Is the person asking for crit? (If not, I avoid. Nothing worse than people giving their opinions when you didn't ask for them). If yes,
3. Has the person said what they're trying to achieve/improve? (If not, I approach with caution because if someone's put a photo up and they don't know what they think about it or what they were trying to do, my crit is probably pointless at best and will cause annoyance & anger at worst)
If any of the above are "no" and I really like the image, I'll use the like button. It's quicker than typing "nice shot" but passes the same compliment. I'm investing marginally less time than the poster took to put the image up. (New Post > CtrlC, CtrlV from Flickr)

I think critique is hugely important to improvement. By seeing what you like and don't like in other photos, you can start to determine what you like/don't like in your own. But you need to know what the photographer was trying to achieve to be able to help them.

I'm fairly certain there used to be a "critique" section but it got merged and the topics all got renamed and now there is a post tag for it. It rarely gets used properly and I think that perhaps every new post in the photo sharing section should have some sort of mini pop up saying (in far better English) "Do you want this to be critiqued? If you do, please tag it like this and let your viewers know why you want it critiquing"

We are the community. It's down to us to critique the images. But it requires effort from the photographer too and a clear process. Hopefully more people will join in meaning that perhaps our pictures might get some crit too. It kinda worked with the 52, but when I did it (several years ago), by around February, I was just taking a photo of anything just to hit the target. It was crap photography. I'm not surprised I got a ton of "nice shot" comments. That's what I was doing to others because I had forty or fifty people to get round half of whom were in a rush. It was work! The 52 got me using my camera. I wasn't taking photographs with it though.

That doesn't mean there isn't a place for non-crit work. The Amusing Sign shot thread, the Show Us Yer Film Shots thread, the photos in the camera equipment threads, the pets. They're all nice to look at (like button worthy) as are the photographs from competent photographers who are just looking to showcase their work and don't want feedback (like button worthy again). I just think there should be a clearer distinction between the two. The "Critique" tag is intended to be it, but I don't think it's doing its job.
 
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I was browsing earlier. Saw a lovely picture of hadrians wall by @Steelo and I clicked like (hes not a contact dont think we ever spoke) but didn't comment (I am not a landscape person so couldnt offer anything) .. I notice 15 others have liked and about 8 good comments.. the pictures is great and all that in less than 24 hrs..

if your pics arn't getting the feedback you desire then you may need to up your game :) .. sorry but :) :)
 
I don't often visit the shared images for much the same reason I don't often post images. I primarily post images when I want critique/feedback, and I usually comment when someone asks for the same.

There are also very few (IMO) that actually listen/consider the feedback. And even fewer who will seriously try to implement it. That doesn't usually stop me from trying to help, but if I recognize you as one who does then I am much more likely to chime in.
 
sk66 said:
There are also very few (IMO) that actually listen/consider the feedback. And even fewer who will seriously try to implement it. That doesn't usually stop me from trying to help, but if I recognize you as one who does then I am much more likely to chime in.
Click to expand...

Amen!
 
So yours is the red-eyed treefrog. It's a nice picture to look at, but it's also likely to appeal to a minority of posters here - I've nothing to add by way of crit because I don't have anything useful to say - the image is technically competent but doesn't challenge the viewer in any way to provoke a response. If you'd missed focus or mangled the tones then it wouldn't have reached to TP front page, but might have got more comments. TP is quieter than it was 4 years ago but there's still crit happening.

As for 'like - it's useful when you like an image enough to want to show approval, but have nothing specific to say about it.
 
The only time I ever post images is in the camera specific threads, and that's just sharing with others who use the same gear, we're showing off what we do with the gear I guess, very rarely any real critique - there is occasionally, and sometimes it's asked for. But galleries, and looking for crit specifically ... meh, unless it's for a competition why do I need other people's input if I'm already happy enough to share?
 
Hi Mark,

I do completely agree with your comments about the lack of feedback.

I have looked at your pictures and I must say they are stunning, however I know very little about macro photography so don't feel a response would really mean much anyway.

macro is an area I would love to start shooting, and please don't take this as any form of criticism because it isn't but maybe a brief account with your picture telling a story of how you managed to capture such an amazing photograph (which I think they are) may start a conversation and feedback. I certainly would love to read this and possibly comment.

Your Macro work looks fantastic to my untrained eye anyway and would love to learn from you if you were wiling to explain.

HTH
 
Cagey75 said:
unless it's for a competition why do I need other people's input if I'm already happy enough to share?
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That's funny... I'm the opposite. It's the images I am happy with that I most appreciate constructive criticism on. If it's an image I'm not happy with, then I usually know why and what to do differently. But if it's an image I am happy with, it's much more likely I have overlooked some aspect. And I think all opinions have some validity, even if I disagree with it...
 
If you look at the first page of new posts, the number of threads containing pictures is always below half, and often down to a quarter at the most. Of those a lot are wildlife/birds, so if you are not interested in those subjects there is not much left. In fact there are a number of people I have put on ignore, not because I disagree with them, more that I was fed up of seeing post after post of theirs showing their latest bird shots.

From the subject headings more people are interested in discussing equipment than showing their images.

I was also going to point out the projects section to Rob but Ed beat me to it :)
 
sk66 said:
That's funny... I'm the opposite. It's the images I am happy with that I most appreciate constructive criticism on. If it's an image I'm not happy with, then I usually know why and what to do differently. But if it's an image I am happy with, it's much more likely I have overlooked some aspect. And I think all opinions have some validity, even if I disagree with it...
Click to expand...

We all see things differently, thankfully - or there would be no use in any form of critique. What I mean is, when I 'know' I'm done with an image, if I am about to upload it just for viewing, not for any kind of critique, then I know I have pixel peeped the crap out of it, I am my own worst critic, I will have examined it over and over long before even deciding to upload. I won't need anyone pointing flaws out, because I won't be bothered to go change it :D

I'm quite stubborn about my images, I don't mind people telling me this or that is off - but if it's more personalized preference 'critique' then it'll just more likely annoy me. It's the images I'm not sure about I want tips on.

I realise that may sound obnoxious, which is fine because many [wrongly] get that vibe from me anyway, but it's just how I am. I probably word things a bit stronger than I mean for emphasis.
 
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rob-nikon said:
Never knew that was there! I’m guessing with only 13 projects with this year dates not many others do either.
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It is hidden away near the bottom of the forum list. But I think most people just prefer posting single pictures in the genre categories.
 
Bythesea said:
If you look at the first page of new posts, the number of threads containing pictures is always below half, and often down to a quarter at the most. Of those a lot are wildlife/birds, so if you are not interested in those subjects there is not much left. In fact there are a number of people I have put on ignore, not because I disagree with them, more that I was fed up of seeing post after post of theirs showing their latest bird shots.

From the subject headings more people are interested in discussing equipment than showing their images.

I was also going to point out the projects section to Rob but Ed beat me to it :)
Click to expand...
Ive previously found I couldn’t participate in many images threads because there wasn’t much that could be discussed. Images were being posted up as just the photo and no text so other than saying ‘nice image’ there wasn’t much to say and nothing to discuss. There are other platforms that do the function of making images viewable to like minded people very well so there isn’t much point relocating it here. For the last few years the D750 thread covered all of my needs to see images because so many were being posted in there and it was a very friendly community.

Thanks for pointing out the projects section, never knew it was there. With no filtering of genres in there in time I can see it being quite similar to your new post issue.
 
Good & useful crit takes lots of time to learn how to do and lots of time to post, sadly I don't have that much free time to do that

When I have in the past its sometime been 'Liked' too, so no conversation ensues normally anyway and one feels one's time is wasted in the same way as the poster who only gets a Like

I fully understand that wanting crit & comments and getting none is frustrating, but you're really just asking for free advice from people when some of the advice isn't worth having and some of it is from people who are paid to give that advice; and some folk who've taken years to hone their skills just don't want to freely give that knowledge away

My bugbear is people asking for advice and posting lots of images with different styles, subjects etc. that'd literally take hours of someone else's time to comment usefully

I doubt an open forum like this is really where you should be posting to learn from, but sharing is great and if you do want advice ask for a specific area to be commented upon

Dave
 
Dave, surely when people have nothing to add to your (almost always accurate, helpful and insightful) C&C, a "Like" or a :plusone: shows that they agree with what you have to say and have nothing further to add?

I rarely post shots here - currently because my editing machine is up the spout so I have no easy way to resize (other than in camera) but usually because I shoot for me, not to have smoke blown up my ass about how good the shot is or (FAR more likely) how crap it is!
 
TP has 50 something thousand members, how many do you actually ever see in the forum.
It's generally the same people posting and commenting (I'm not complaining, just pointing out an observation). So the active TP community as actually quite small, there are x amount of photo genres in the forum, some of which have no interest for some members, some are quite popular (birds), some a medico following. So now the small-ish active members are spread around.
I've posted photos before into various forums and had no likes or comments, it's not the end of the world, people either didn't like them or didn't see them.
Also, aren't all photo forums, accept *for pleasure*, critique forums.
It's nice to have a bit of feed back, but i can live with none.
 
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People seem to take offence very quickly these days and many only want to here how great their efforts are.
Flickr is banged out with the "omg best thing since sliced bread i'm awarding you a million gold stars" type comments

Maybe go along to the local camera club, they seem to exist on competitions with people passing comment and judging others efforts.
I'm in now way qualified to comment on peoples work, my opinion is purely subjective, I either like a photo or not, so hardly constructive.
 
It's an interesting point. I use the 'like' button in the same way @Harlequin565 does, to agree with a comment that someone makes or to thank them for commenting on a post I do. Sometimes I post an image (I only shoot landscapes) and like @KIPAX (thanks for the kind words) says, gets a lot of comments quickly, like my Hadrians Wall image. Sometimes I post and get nothing at all. Other times I post and get some fantastic critique on the image, and sometimes I'll agree with the critique, and others I'll take it on board, but offer my reasonings as to why I shot/processed the image the way I did. That's not me being ungrateful for the critique, as I always get something from the comments, it's me being confident enough in the style I produce my work.

I've been a member on here for as long as I've owned a camera now, 8 years or so, and I've learned so much from the forum and will browse the forums almost daily, yet I very rarely offer critique on images (again landscapes, as it's all I know) anymore because back in the day I got shot down in flames for giving an opinion. I love passing on what I know, I run workshops and love teaching people and watching them progress in their quest to become a competent landscape photographer, however when you offer an opinion online, on a very subjective matter to begin with, it seems to be very rarely appreciated anymore.

I also find that I only 'like' what I like, and if it's nothing more than a snapshot, then I feel there is nothing to critique in the first place.
 
If your looking at a photo that is technically good, has a good composition and you can't see any flaws, then what is there to say other than "good shot" or "nice photo". Doesn't everyone like a bit of praise every now and then?
When feedback is given, some members only seem to give negative feedback, with no encouragement or anything constructive, where as others are very good at giving feedback and will point out good points (sometimes it's not that easy to do) and encouragement. To me these are the people who have a passion for photography and truly what to pass their knowledge and experience on to others to help them improve.
 
My 2 pennorth, and, please read this as posted "with my forum member for the past 9 and a half years (ouch, where did the time go...)" rather than as a member of the green team... First and foremost the mod's are Members on here - we've no financial stake in the forum, we just want it to thrive so that it stays around, same as everyone else does I guess...

Anyhow...

reading @Hertsman 's first couple of lines posted made me have a real sad-panda moment. Because genuinely, if that's how you see things Mark, I think that this place IS failing you badly...

TalkPhotography was pretty much built on being a place where people could come, post their images, and get critique on them, friendly and helpful critique, you know - the kind that actually helps you become a better photographer, and master your craft (or ...whispers... art - depends on how you see it and what critique you get).

That's the reason why ALL the photo-sharing sections apart from "fluffy kittens" (or whatever we're calling it these days) are supposed to be "open for critique".

The discussions about gear, pp, locations and associated stuff was there to SUPPORT people so that they could get out there and take better photos, so that they could share them and get feedback as to what steps to take next....

The classifieds was supposed to be just a little perk for the regular members (hence the entry conditions requiring a certain degree of prior participation) - it certainly wasn't intended to be in any way a USP of the whole forum...

So - when I read that people don't think of this place as somewhere that Critique is intrinsic to, I feel deeply saddened, that I've given nearly 10 years to a venture that either people have misinterpreted, or that we (as staff and owners) have missed the "wind of change".

Maybe things HAVE become a little diluted by everything being open for critique, MAYBE we ALL - members and staff - should be making it clear that everything is OPEN FOR CRITIQUE, and maybe we ALL should be spending more time actually out there GIVING CRITIQUE - and, if people have dummy spits, then maybe the STAFF should be making it clear that everything is "fair game" unless in fluffy kittens...

Now, as to the "like" button... personally, I thought it was the worst idea that I'd heard of in all my time on this forum - and i've made my views clear in every discussion we've had on the subject in the Staff Dungeons. However, pandora's box has been opened now, and it does kind of have it's place in the non-photo areas, it even avoids the "nice shot" posts that used to plague the picture sharing areas - which co-incidentally were usually made by someoene trying to get into the classifieds on their first day of membership. Maybe if the "like" was amended to a "nice shot" button in the photo forums, and an independent counter made for that - so we could see who was most likeable (my colleague @Cobra currently tops that chart... I'll not comment further on the likeability metric) AND who posted more likeable photo's.... Of course, that's customising the whole forum software, and it's a time, effort and money to do so, so it may not be feasible).

I know that pretty much everything I've posted on here, has been open to critique, and i've appreciated every single insight or offering that's been made, and, I'll happily say this - I'm a FAR better master of my art for the feedback i've been given by people on here. I'd hate to think that newer members may not be getting the same experience. As I said - Sad Panda.
 
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