Taking photo's in a public place and an unhappy Mother.

nessiemac

nessiemac

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Dave
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Evening gents,

Hope you can give me a bit of guidance with a situation that has arisen earlier.

A few may have seen my mountain bike photo's that i like to take when i'm not riding myself. I usually take photo's of everyone riding at a particular MTB venue and have just started to stick them on Facebook because of the interest i have been getting and everyone asking where they can see them.

Anyhow,

I was at a venue in Hampshire on Sunday which is a public forestry commision area but it is run by a Downhill MTB club. I was there with the clubs photographer to capture pics of everyone riding and putting them on the clubs Facebook page for them with their permission.

As it turned out i posted 110 photo's of riders on the clubs site and mine and everyone is very happy with them and the club are happy with some good photo's.

I have just received a message via FB from a mother of one the riders saying..

"i need to be careful taking pictures of riders without their prior permission. I need permission from the site owners and absolutely cannot take pictures of minors without parental permission and not to leave myself wide open if i don't. My son is 13 and you have published pictures of him on a public site"

Now this was a quite friendly message but i am unsure as to how to respond to it. Everyone including the club knew i was there to take pics and everyone was asking where they can see the pics so would like some advice really as where i stand?

Hmmm?
 
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If you are shooting from a public place, they have no right to privacy. That said if requested to remove an image I would do so if the subject in question was the sole person in the photo, but also point out that you were under no obligation to do but just as a matter of coutesy. If included in a group shot then probably not. If they wish to have complete anonymity in the modern world they would need to stay indoors.
 
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Not that I can answer your question, but when you say everyone was happy for you to take their pictures, do you mean the riders or the organisers of the event.
 
Nikon Fan said:
Not that I can answer your question, but when you say everyone was happy for you to take their pictures, do you mean the riders or the organisers of the event.
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I mean virtually everyone riding was asking to see the photo's after a Downhill run and to ask where they could see the photographs later which was the venue's own site with the venue's own photographer congratulating me on some great photo's.!

I will ask the mother which photo and i shall remove it but the world is going mad!!
 
I go to quite a few different events like this, and post my images on Flikr. And with a lot of events like MTB downhill, when they have all of their kit on, it is difficult to know just how old they are. But I'm also the official photographer for other events, so I am known as that, and anyone taking part will know that they will be photographed and thumbnails of the images will be on the internet.
 
She is missinformed but seems like she may have just been trying to help you even if she is wrong.. tell her you have already checked beforehand and everyhting is above board.. However your always happy to remove any picture a parent isnt happy with out of good manners :)
 
Adgreed with all above,the woman is talking rubbish.

But if it make you feel better take his photo down :)
 
artyman said:
If you are shooting from a public place, they have no right to privacy. That said if requested to remove an image I would do so if the subject in question was the sole person in the photo, but also point out that you were under no obligation to do but just as a matter of coutesy. If included in a group shot then probably not. If they wish to have complete anonymity in the modern world they would need to stay indoors.
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:thumbs:
This is pretty much as I see it. Remove the picture in question, ruminate a bit about the mad World we live in and move on.
I should add. that the mother would probably not have minded if her son's picture appeared in a local newspaper covering the event, as that would have given her something to crow about;)
 
I had a similar situation a wee while ago. I shot a wedding and inbetween the group shots I noticed the flower girl sitting on the grass picking daisys, to add an element of cuteness etc and the fact the b n g demanded 50% candid etc, I took some photos. The flower girl incidently was the grooms brothers daughter.

After placing the wedding pictures on my website, I got a call from this grumpy bloke stating that I'd broken the data protection act blah blah blah by putting 2 pictures of his daughter the flower girl on my website, which by the way was locked by and user name and password that only the b n g had, so if they had access they must know the b n g lol ........

He demanded I took it down or he was going to the police, was very rude, made me feel like a pervert, I was quite new to this so I just listened and to save any hassle I agreed to take the image down, the bit that blew my mind was at the end of the call he ordered 4 copys of the photo and told me it was a corker .....this was kinda the point for putting the images on the website so people who were given access by the bride and groom could log in and hopefully purchase photos.

We live in a bizarre world where people get by on half true statements and little knowledge
 
I would explian nicely that it's quite legal to take photos of anyone in a public place, and that she's been misinformed about the law regarding taking pictures of a minor, however I would remove the offending picture as she's upset about it.
 
KIPAX said:
She is missinformed but seems like she may have just been trying to help you even if she is wrong.. tell her you have already checked beforehand and everyhting is above board.. However your always happy to remove any picture a parent isnt happy with out of good manners :)
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:plusone:
 
I would correct her, but still offer to take down her picture if she still wanted.

As already said above.
 
I think my first instinct would be to inform her of her ignorance on the subject and keep the picture up, but I'm in a mood today:|

So, after a few deep breaths I'd probably do what ye lot are generally saying but offer her a 6 x 8 at a special rate :nuts:
 
I know this thread is about public space photos, what if you done a family shoot in someones home, and you then display the pictures on your website. I.e. I am assuming as the copyright holder of the images I can display where I like?
 
Tell her that you look forward to receiving a letter from her lawyers. Pretty sure that the cost will stop her going that far but if it doesn't, you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that she's wasted a fair sum .
 
Nod said:
Tell her that you look forward to receiving a letter from her lawyers. Pretty sure that the cost will stop her going that far but if it doesn't, you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that she's wasted a fair sum .
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I think you missed the whole subject of this thread.. particularly the bit where the OP says it was a friendly message from the lady .. She wasnt complaining.. she wasnt demanding or even asking for picture removal.
 
So by whats been said on here, the op got permission to do the shoot by the bike club, is with the clubs photographer that does this all the time and in a public place, and we are telling him to tell the mother she is wrong but we will still take the pic down?? Does that not tell her that you are still wrong as you have taken it down.

I never know what to beleive on this site sometimes,

example A. tog on a street corner in a very public place and gets approached by member of public about having pic taken, or security guard says you cannot do that, and all I hear on here is "its your right blah blah blah and stand your ground you are doing nothing wrong etc etc, you get the picture.

example B The op question above, same senario in a public place with permission by the club etc etc and we are all saying tell her she is wrong but bow down and take the pic down etc etc :thinking:

Ok rant over :suspect:

spike
 
cameradaft said:
I know this thread is about public space photos, what if you done a family shoot in someones home, and you then display the pictures on your website. I.e. I am assuming as the copyright holder of the images I can display where I like?
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There is a strong expectance of privacy in ones home own.. although allowing pictures to be taken would seem to negate that.. however if you ahve been in someones home and it gets to a dispute as to where you can display the pictures then you the photogrpaher have already made the biggest mistake...
 
SpikeK6 said:
So by whats been said on here, the op got permission to do the shoot by the bike club, is with the clubs photographer that does this all the time and in a public place, and we are telling him to tell the mother she is wrong but we will still take the pic down?? Does that not tell her that you are still wrong as you have taken it down.
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for the last 8 yrs I ahve been running a website with simmilar subjects (not bikes but clubs with kids taking part) For all that time I have made it quite clear and have a note on site that i will take down any picture on request.

Sometimes its not about..I am right so I am doing it...
 
KIPAX said:
There is a strong expectance of privacy in ones home own.. although allowing pictures to be taken would seem to negate that.. however if you ahve been in someones home and it gets to a dispute as to where you can display the pictures then you the photogrpaher have already made the biggest mistake...
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whats the mistake?
 
cameradaft said:
whats the mistake?
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I can't tell if your serious or ...... But for clarity .. If your taking pictures in someones home then its quite a personal thing .. you really should sort out beforehand where you can display the pictures.. not after you took them.. Lots of reasons why but mostly what I would call common sense :)

ADDYONBIT Just seen Andys post and yeagh .. wot e said :)
 
KIPAX said:
I can't tell if your serious or ...... But for clarity .. If your taking pictures in someones home then its quite a personal thing .. you really should sort out beforehand where you can display the pictures.. not after you took them.. Lots of reasons why but mostly what I would call common sense :)

ADDYONBIT Just seen Andys post and yeagh .. wot e said :)
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Sorry yeah was serious, but was reading it on my phone, now I am at my pc what you said reads fine, couldnt get my reading head on while on the phone, I totally agree,

cheers
 
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cameradaft said:
I know this thread is about public space photos, what if you done a family shoot in someones home, and you then display the pictures on your website. I.e. I am assuming as the copyright holder of the images I can display where I like?
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NO, you can't.
That would fall under the private and domestic part of the copyright act (this bit http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/85 )
assuming you are actually talking about a commission and not just snapping your own family or the like.

Which is why all portrait and wedding snappers should have a clause in their terms which allows use by the photographer for portfolio/publicity purposes.
 
Thanks for all the comments. I have emailed the mother and set her straight on the legality of the photography but whilst saying that i would remove the photo's if that is her wish.

Waiting to hear back from her.

Funny thing is on checking the 3 photo's that her son is in, each one has an "awesome" or "cool" photo mate comment from him from his own Facebook site which has numerous photographs of him on his bike!! :bonk:
 
Whats a public space ?

Appreciate taking pics from the pavement is in a public space but what if you are in a park or a sports field i.e attached to a school that's used when the school is closed. A school field will generally be owned by the Council and a park may be owned, again, by a council or the NT etc or Forestry Commission in this case. I take it these are not classed as public spaces.
 
skiking said:
Whats a public space ?

Appreciate taking pics from the pavement is in a public space but what if you are in a park or a sports field i.e attached to a school that's used when the school is closed. A school field will generally be owned by the Council and a park may be owned, again, by a council or the NT etc or Forestry Commission in this case. I take it these are not classed as public spaces.
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If they are open to the public they are public spaces, Or public by the right of access which would give you the same rights.
 
The MTB's website is full of photo's from enthusiastic photographers like myself and the clubs "official" photographer so anyone attending know's there is a high likely hood of photos being taken and posted on their site. My photo from riding there is on the site!! In fact on their website i asked the question are there any restrictions and the answer was no. They have a race next weekend from age categories ranging from 8 to 80 year olds and they are asking for anyone who has good pics to attend an after race chill out at a local club!

The site being a Forestry commission site is a bit of a grey area as regards full public access but having spoken to the FC warden for the area they are happy for photographers to be there as long as it's not an obvious photoshoot like for a magazine for example.

I have spoken to the mother who assures me it is private property with no public right of way,even though it has a bridleway running through the middle, and that FC are happy for me to be there but she maintains that i shouldn't have photos of her son which i have removed from the album now.

All very amicable but just shows how something can escalate from something very innocent!
 
asphotographymk said:
If they are open to the public they are public spaces, Or public by the right of access which would give you the same rights.
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I'm not a lawyer, but I always thought this was incorrect? Shopping centres are the common example, they're open to the public, but are often private property, so they can ask you to stop taking photos, or leave if you don't. Someone correct me if I'm wrong there though?



nessiemac said:
I have spoken to the mother who assures me it is private property with no public right of way,even though it has a bridleway running through the middle, and that FC are happy for me to be there but she maintains that i shouldn't have photos of her son which i have removed from the album now.

All very amicable but just shows how something can escalate from something very innocent!
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Sounds like made a good call. In an ideal world you shouldn't have to take the photos down, and did nothing wrong. From the sounds of it the son is happy with the photos you took too. You could have refused, stuck by your rights, and escalated the situation further, probably got a bad name for yourself with some at the club etc etc, or just make life easier for yourself. Chances are the mother will realise at some point that she was wrong (although I wouldn't hold your breath for an apology!). Perhaps when her son complains to her that the cool photos of him aren't on facebook any more :D
 
chris321 said:
I'm not a lawyer, but I always thought this was incorrect? Shopping centres are the common example, they're open to the public, but are often private property, so they can ask you to stop taking photos, or leave if you don't. Someone correct me if I'm wrong there though?
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Correct, public right of way is not the same as public spaces. Public right of way extends to passing through the area, without distractions or loitering and under the terms set by the land owner. Similiar to green paths across farms etc. they are a public right of way, but if you settle down and start having a picnic do not be surprised if the owner of the land turns up asking what you are doing and possibly requesting that you move on.

Anything more than passing through and using the sites facilities that are open to the public (such as going into shops, using toilets etc.), you technically need to request permission from the owners or you risk upsetting them.
 
Going forward I think the club need to set some guidelines, such as stating on the website and signing-in forms that photography will be taken and may be published.

The nature of the sport is such that it would be very difficult not to take photos of certain riders, but if the riders post the event don't want their photos published on FB or the club's site then they should be allowed to request their removal.

You haven't got a picture without the riders and it is counter productive to create ill feeling in the club. What many photographers forget is that people take part in sport because they love it, not for a photo opportunity. Not everyone wants their photo taken.

Whether you have the 'right' to take photos is irrelevant it's surely just common courtesy to remove images if someone request it.

Going forward I'd try and work with certain riders and get shots of them. It's likely to be far more productive if you can collaborate with good riders than shooting everyone.
 
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