Sycamore Gap Tree

Peter123 said:
I don’t think you can compare a tree, which can be re-grown, to Stonehenge.
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Stonehenge was just the first thing I thought of but use you imagination and think of the many thousands of other treasures in the UK which we would not want destroyed. As far as I am concerned the sentence taking account of the 40% is far too lenient. When they get to prison, they may have annoyed Harry Grout (Grouty) who, as we know listens to the Archers and likes the countryside.

There was a programme on ITV last night about the Sycamore Gap and it was reported all round the world and shows England in a very bad light.

Dave
 
It was not " Just a tree " it was in a film, Meant so much to so many , Happy times sad times, Almost a national monument .
I for one was appalled at what they did, for what ?
 
Mozziephotography said:
The taxpayer will have to foot the bill for these two for the next two years or so. Why don't they put them to work instead, community projects such as tree planting.
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Such community service system would indeed seem a better option for a large number of non-violent offences.
Unfortunately that would also cost money, both in simple administration, but also in terms of suitable supervision (both while the work was in progress, and also to ensure those on such a scheme didn't just wander off at the end of the day and fail to return). Once it was all up an running, it should be cheaper than custodial sentences, but there are some awkward questions that need addressing - if they are spending their working hours on community service, how are they paying bills, etc. - do they end up on benfits?
 
Faldrax said:
...if they are spending their working hours on community service, how are they paying bills, etc. - do they end up on benfits?
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The American "chain gang" system was an early modern attempt at something like this but I can't see such a system accepted in the current British political climate...

en.wikipedia.org

Chain gang - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Faldrax said:
Such community service system would indeed seem a better option for a large number of non-violent offences.
Unfortunately that would also cost money, both in simple administration, but also in terms of suitable supervision (both while the work was in progress, and also to ensure those on such a scheme didn't just wander off at the end of the day and fail to return). Once it was all up an running, it should be cheaper than custodial sentences, but there are some awkward questions that need addressing - if they are spending their working hours on community service, how are they paying bills, etc. - do they end up on benfits?
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They give up their weekends?...They have to work so many hours per month. If they fail then that is a breach of their "Parole" and they must toddle off to The Grey Bar Hotel!
 
jerry12953 said:
When you think of the number of ancient trees and the amount of ancient woodland destroyed in the name of "development" ( viz HS2)
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That's where they went wrong ! If they had greased the right palm [offensive language removed] They could have chopped it down and built a McDonald's on top of it with a thirty two lane drive through !
 
The problem with it being a tree rather than any other sort of national monument is that it can't be 'unfelled'.

That statue of Edward Colston, for example, could have been repaired and replaced. I have also seen builders being forced to pay to rebuild buildings they've torn down that had protected status.

Others have said for many people it is still 'just a tree'. Trees get cut down all the time - many without all the proper permits.

But the fact remains that it was special to many people, more so for people in the area admittedly. Some have had their ashes scattered there and I believe one local couple got engaged and married there.

The problem with today's society is that people are so desperate for any sort of fame, they'll happily take infamy over achieving fame through talent. I'm sure I read some of the evidence against them were the text messages showing how excited they were it was getting so much coverage.
 
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Kell said:
The problem with today's society is that people are so desperate for any sort of fame, they'll happily take infamy over achieving fame through talent.
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I think that "the problem with today's society" is that two idiots, who cut down a tree, received sentences of four years three months whereas a woman, who took part in causing serious harm to children, had her sentence "increased to four years and 10 months"...

www.gov.uk

Courts increase sentences for child sex offenders

Child sex offence cases saw the greatest number of prison sentence increases by the Court of Appeal last year the Attorney General’s Office (AGO) has announced.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 
This episode is, indeed, symptomatic of today's culture. The tree had become a celebrity, famous for being famous. Which is the reason there's been so much media uproar over its felling.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I think that "the problem with today's society" is that two idiots, who cut down a tree, received sentences of four years three months whereas a woman, who took part in causing serious harm to children, had her sentence "increased to four years and 10 months"...

www.gov.uk

Courts increase sentences for child sex offenders

Child sex offence cases saw the greatest number of prison sentence increases by the Court of Appeal last year the Attorney General’s Office (AGO) has announced.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
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Do see your point, the thing is that the woman who harmed children you mentioned ( I am not familiar with the case though) should have had a more serious punishment
The punishment for those two who cut down the tree was about correct as they destroyed out of spite something that meant a lot to many people
 
LCPete said:
The punishment for those two who cut down the tree was about correct as they destroyed out of spite something that meant a lot to many people
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I can see your point but the other side of that coin is: what is the purpose of imprisonment?

If it is to harm those who have harmed others, then you are probably correct but if the purpose is to change behaviour, then it seems too long, in this case. I've read various claims that prisons, as we currently run them, often re-inforce criminal tendencies, making them so-called "universities of crime". If that claim is true, the longer someone remains in prison, the more likely they are to re-offend because their anti-social tendencies are re-inforced by contact with other criminals.

I don't claim to know which view is closer to correct. What worries me, is that I don't feel any confidence that enough objective evidence has been gathered on the efficacy of prison or the best regime to put in place. If this is so, how can we make informed decisions at any level?
 
LCPete said:
The punishment for those two who cut down the tree was about correct as they destroyed out of spite something that meant a lot to many people
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They damaged an ancient monument.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I've read various claims that prisons, as we currently run them, often re-inforce criminal tendencies, making them so-called "universities of crime".
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Exam Question:

Define "currently", "often", "re-inforce", "criminal tendencies" without reference to The Daily Mail or similar.
 
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There is also an economic impact of the vandalism. People came to see that tree and the local pubs, b&bs and food places did better because of it. There is not much else in the area except the Roman wall itself and sheep.
 
Pound Coin said:
They damaged an ancient monument.
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Planted in the late 19th century, making it about 150 years old is hardly ancient. Doesn't make the felling right though.
 
True!

Not as much as generations of farmers, builders, dry stone wallers, walkers etc.. The tree itself probably caused heave damage to the wall too.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I can see your point but the other side of that coin is: what is the purpose of imprisonment?
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One purpose is that while the offender is locked up they cannot continue to offend which many of them would. Sadly, there is no economic way to do this while maintaining minimum human rights.

Dave
 
Nod said:
True!

Not as much as generations of farmers, builders, dry stone wallers, walkers etc.. The tree itself probably caused heave damage to the wall too.
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It's not always been an official Heritage Site

Heritage Category:World Heritage Site
List Entry Number:1000098
Date first listed:1987
 
I suspect the jial term is this case wasn't so much to protect the public, or re educate the offenders, as to send a message to others that damaging "historic" items wont be tolerated. This might help protect other heritage or import objects.
Beside which, we cant really have people going around doing as they please to other peoples property, it would be mayhem (just look at parts of London now) there has to be a line in the sand somewhere.
 
swanseamale47 said:
I suspect the jial term is this case wasn't so much to protect the public, or re educate the offenders, as to send a message to others that damaging "historic" items wont be tolerated. This might help protect other heritage or import objects.
Beside which, we cant really have people going around doing as they please to other peoples property, it would be mayhem (just look at parts of London now) there has to be a line in the sand somewhere.
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In my town, which would not be considered as a centre of crime, last weekend several youths attacked a temporary statue which is part of 12 throughout the town as part of a charity fund raising. Why did these youths think they had a right to do this (in a churchyard). There was a camera but the definition was not sufficiently detailed for the police to identify the culprits but I suspect that someone will. The local residents are very angry and I suspect they will get a much lighter sentence from a magistrate than the local lynch mob.

Dave
 
Dave Canon said:
In my town, which would not be considered as a centre of crime, last weekend several youths attacked a temporary statue which is part of 12 throughout the town as part of a charity fund raising. Why did these youths think they had a right to do this (in a churchyard). There was a camera but the definition was not sufficiently detailed for the police to identify the culprits but I suspect that someone will. The local residents are very angry and I suspect they will get a much lighter sentence from a magistrate than the local lynch mob.

Dave
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I've seen 3 CCTV images this week of wanted people. 2 were so bad I doubt the suspect would recognise himself, the other one was so bad I couldnt be sure it was even a person in the image. I couldnt buy a camera this bad.
Many of these CCTVcameras are so bad I wonder who looked at them originally and said "ohh, that'll be good for catching people" The quality it terrible.
Back in 2002 I fitted a CCTV camera in one of my brothers shops, the quality was miles better than the images we're seen now in 2025.
 
swanseamale47 said:
I've seen 3 CCTV images this week of wanted people. 2 were so bad I doubt the suspect would recognise himself, the other one was so bad I couldnt be sure it was even a person in the image. I couldnt buy a camera this bad.
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I've seen CCTV cameras so dirty, I'd be amazed if they could record anything, let alone well enough to use as evidence. Perhaps that's the case with the images you were looking at...

Security camera Barnfield Road West Swindon Panasonic TZ40 1010823.JPG
 
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jerry12953 said:
When you think of the number of ancient trees and the amount of ancient woodland destroyed in the name of "development" ( viz HS2) a sentence of four years for one single tree does seem ludicrous.
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Absolutely spot on(y)
 
droj said:
Maybe it's time that all 'lone trees' were preemptively felled to save deluded photographers from pursuing that cliché any longer ...
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Or maybe, all trees but one in a given copse should be felled, then more trees would be lone, and there would be more potential photos...and lone tree photos would be more varied...
 
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