Suspended sentence for gamekeeper poisoning BOP

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DorsetDude said:
To be fair he shouldnt have disturbed the nest at all if it was active. Not that your average Joe would know that. But when this BOP killer gets off scot free makes you angry.
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I agree on all counts Keith !
 
British justice is a joke, sentences passed out by people who live in another world.
He should certainly have been jailed at the very least to send some sort of message to the other brain dead w@nker$ who continue doing this sort of thing.
 
Laudrup said:
It's expensive to lock people up. £119,000 for a new prison place and about £35,000-£40,000 a year to keep them in jail. They could do it as long as you don't mind paying for it.
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I am paying for it already. So cost determines justice does it?
 
Gaz J said:
I am paying for it already. So cost determines justice does it?
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You want more people locked up pay more taxes. The system is at bursting right now so locking people up for years at great expense for poisoning birds doesn't seem to be a high priority right now.
 
You need to change the record dude. That's not an argument. Criminality is not decided by cost. If there's a custodial sentence available this guy should have served it. Not enough room in the prisons. Build some more. Take the money from the 1.7 billion we aren't going to pay the EU.
 
Bernie174 said:
Why?

If you're caught for speeding would you expect the maximum sentence, thats £2500 on a motorway, or £1000 anywhere else, disqualification can be included. I suspect there'd be howls of protest on here if someone copped for that.

Theft? How about that one? You nick a mars bar, have 10 years.

Sentences are handed out on a sliding scale, within guidelines issued by the Attorney General. Apart from Murder & treason where life is mandatory, you work your way up depending on offence circumstances and previous convictions. No one ever gets the maximum for a first offence.

Had this been a simple theft, he wouldn't even have been charged, had his offence been speeding he'd have got a ticket. The fact he was 1,. charged, not cautioned, and 2. given a suspended prison term shows how serious this was taken.
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Quite right.
 
Gaz J said:
You need to change the record dude. That's not an argument. Criminality is not decided by cost. If there's a custodial sentence available this guy should have served it. Not enough room in the prisons. Build some more. Take the money from the 1.7 billion we aren't going to pay the EU.
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The prisons are overcrowded and we don't have the money for more. Locking people up for years for poisoning birds is putting more pressure on an already volatile situation.
 
Laudrup said:
It's expensive to lock people up. £119,000 for a new prison place and about £35,000-£40,000 a year to keep them in jail. They could do it as long as you don't mind paying for it.
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Yes. I'm on the fence as to where get it was worth paying this to jail him.

What is the benefit in killing these birds? I know little of wildlife.
 
I didn't suggest locking him up for years. Its called making an example. Do it to a couple and it might help change the attitude of others who carry out these poisonings if they thought they might go down for it.

But then its only a few birds so what does it really matter. If it had been 11 pets then it would have been the crime of the century.
 
ST4 said:
What is the benefit in killing these birds? I know little of wildlife.
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Its often said that predator birds kill game birds that have cost in excess of £60 ea. to rear.
(that figure maybe out of date BTW)
In reality Buzzards are largely carrion eaters,
preferring their food dead, or dying.

But of course a penned game bird can be easy pickings too,
Sparrow hawks prefer to take their dinner on the wing as it were.
(although ambush techniques are not out of the question)
A Spar is unlikely to tackle something as large and powerful as a pheasant.
Preferring pigeons, doves and smaller.
 
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ST4 said:
Yes. I'm on the fence as to where get it was worth paying this to jail him.

What is the benefit in killing these birds? I know little of wildlife.
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They poison them to stop them predating the young pheasants. To me its a flawed argument even if it was legal. The percentage of pheasants shot is nowhere near the amount raised. I don't know if studies have ever been done to gauge the impact that for example a dozen buzzard would have on an estate.

The problem was/is that gamekeepers have historically persecuted BOP with the intention of removing them completely from land.

However, although it does still seem to go on more in certain parts of the country some land owners are now trying to restore wildlife to their land and for that they should be commended.

But sadly there are still scumbags like this guy around.
 
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Cobra said:
What did he use? Just curious as I am a pestie.
All I could find was
Lambert, 65, of Holt Road, Edgefield, was found guilty of deliberately killing 10 buzzards and a sparrowhawk,
and possession of pesticides and items used to prepare poison baits.
At an earlier hearing he pleaded guilty to five other charges including illegal use of pesticides and possession of an illegal firearm.

That doesn't mean that they were illegal, just using them on a none target species is.

If it was warfarin (Most likely) its not a banned substance
And the LD 50 for that is about 5Mg / kg
An adult female buzzard weighs around a Kg
So in reality a 10mg in one dose would be enough to kill one bird.
or even 2 mg accumulative over 5 days.
and adult female spar weights about 250-300g

Just musing and not condoning his actions in anyway.
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He used Mevinphos and Aldicarb. These two plus carbofuran are the common ones (esp. carb) used by the criminals. They are illegal to be in possession of. Sometimes strichnine is used.
 
arclight said:
He used Mevinphos and Aldicarb. These two plus carbofuran are the common ones (esp. carb) used by the criminals. They are illegal to be in possession of. Sometimes strichnine is used.
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I got that thanks, Paul posted a link :thumbs:
 
Gaz J said:
They poison them to stop them predating the young pheasants. To me its a flawed argument even if it was legal. The percentage of pheasants shot is nowhere near the amount raised. I don't know if studies have ever been done to gauge the impact that for example a dozen buzzard would have on an estate.

The problem was/is that gamekeepers have historically persecuted BOP with the intention of removing them completely from land.

However, although it does still seem to go on more in certain parts of the country some land owners are now trying to restore wildlife to their land and for that they should be commended.

But sadly there are still scumbags like this guy around.
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Correct, Gary. There is a small shoot where I live. 4000 poults are brought in every year. Total bag for the season is about 1000 birds spread over ten shoots. There a few buzzards (not nearly as many as there once were) and they do go for carrion and small rodents. Stoats and weasels also feature prominently on their menu. The local estate traps stoats and weasels because they are a threat to the poults. And, of course, foxes are snared. Not surprising that there are many foxes with all the surplus pheasants dodging about. Lots of the pheasants end up as road kills.
 
arclight said:
Correct, Gary. There is a small shoot where I live. 4000 poults are brought in every year. Total bag for the season is about 1000 birds spread over ten shoots. There a few buzzards (not nearly as many as there once were) and they do go for carrion and small rodents. Stoats and weasels also feature prominently on their menu. The local estate traps stoats and weasels because they are a threat to the poults. And, of course, foxes are snared. Not surprising that there are many foxes with all the surplus pheasants dodging about. Lots of the pheasants end up as road kills.
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anyone caught using a snare should also be jailed
 
steunited said:
anyone caught using a snare should also be jailed
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Anyone caught using a snare in the wrong way should be prosecuted. I never understood why locking snares were banned, the death was far quicker than the non locking ones are.

Personally, i`m not a lover of snares, but they are very effective for foxes.
 
something I posted elsewhere:

IMO Will, the biggest problem is the old fashioned view that anything that can kill game birds should be destroyed. I have seen game books for estates north and south of the scottish border,estates that have recently stopped shooting. The entries in those game books was truly horrific. ( For those that don`t know, gamekeepers used to keep books that listed all the "vermin" that the keepers killed).

Predators will gather where food is most plentiful, that means if an estate puts 30,000 pheasant down, then the predators will gather in that area. It is like us living next door to a chippy,easy food will be taken rather than hard earned meals. That is nature and it won`t change.

The estate I work on is a non shooting estate surrounded by shooting estates, we regulalry have heated exchanges with the nearby keepers and sometimes need to escort them off and remove things they have "misplaced".

I live in an area that has some of the very few English hen harriers, these birds have nests fail year upon year. Yes they are ground nesters so are in danger of certain predators, but every single year?....Doubtful that human intervention is not a cause, especially when they nest so close to the big grouse shooting moors. But hell, that is what they live on,amongst other things. Surely there is enough grouse for the shooters and for the harriers to exists together,it appears not.

Ospreys are making a big come back,it won`t be long before the salmon fishermen are saying there are too many, as they have with otters. They would kill anything that can take salmon, i`m surprised kingfishers are not persecuted for taking salmon parr yet.

Is the answer to ban shooting? Perhaps, but you are taking away a huge food source for predators, you will take away the woodland management and take money away from the countryside, an area that needs that money to manage the land properly. To ban shooting would take a decent amount of money from those estates as well, money that is vital for the estates to survive and manage themselves properly. The estate that I work on has diversified since Roger,the owner, banned shooting and hunting on it. The estate costs a fortune to run and has to pay for itself, as such, another form of revenue has been devised. The state is to be a wildlife haven and photographic hides have been built and many more will be this winter. Feed is placed to attract all wildlife, hell, I even scrape roadkill up for predators like some bloody hillbilly, but if it works,then so be it. We are seeing success now, but it has been a hard path and doesn`t look like it is getting smoother.

So what is the answer?

I have said it before and will say it until the day I die, until land owners are held accountable for the actions of their staff and what happens on their land, then nothing will change. Stupid out of date attitudes must change,example..." are those buzzards ok,will they not take the sheep?" "Of course they will, let us go and shoot them now hey."...farmer actually thought I was being serious.

Anyway, probably my longest ever post on here, so i`ll stfu now.
 
fracster said:
Anyone caught using a snare in the wrong way should be prosecuted. I never understood why locking snares were banned, the death was far quicker than the non locking ones are.
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That's more to the point :thumbs:
 
steunited said:
anyone caught using a snare should also be jailed
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Hideous devices which are unfortunately lawfull if used as proscribed. There are many unlawfull types about
 
Cobra said:
That's more to the point (y)
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Indeed Chris, we used to set snares for foxes at the correct height, the snare was fastened to an old fence post, fox gets caught in the wire, struggles against the weight of the fence post and strangles itself quickly, the non locking ones release and then retighten.

They should either ban snares completely or let the locking ones be used.
 
fracster said:
Anyone caught using a snare in the wrong way should be prosecuted. I never understood why locking snares were banned, the death was far quicker than the non locking ones are.

Personally, i`m not a lover of snares, but they are very effective for foxes.
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So its OK to snare and kill Foxes but its a crime to kill off the odd bird
 
Gary Coyle said:
So its OK to snare and kill Foxes but its a crime to kill off the odd bird
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Foxes are not protected creatures mate, buzzards and sparrowhawks are protected birds.

I`m no lover of foxes, but I admire their beauty,cleverness and, in my opinion, the vixen is the best parent of all our natural wildlife. They need to be controlled for the sake of lots of other wildlife. Saying that, most have moved into urban areas now.
 
fracster said:
Foxes are not protected creatures mate, buzzards and sparrowhawks are protected birds.

I`m no lover of foxes, but I admire their beauty,cleverness and, in my opinion, the vixen is the best parent of all our natural wildlife. They need to be controlled for the sake of lots of other wildlife. Saying that, most have moved into urban areas now.
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Theyre all gods creatures mate and as for the "Vermin" argument im pretty sure the 2 week old leveritt plucked up by the "protected" bird of prey thinks that said bird is Vermin also.

Seriously not having a pop at you or your stance on this mate but who are we to decide whats right and wrong, fox hunting was banned because it was barbaric, how is snaring a Fox and killing or leaving it to die any less barbaric

Just my 2 cents as i think we should be looking after all creatures equally and not kill any unless absolutley needed, ie plague, food.

Im a big softie and love animals
 
Its not OK in the moral sense Gary to kill anything just for the hell of it. But, over zealous defender of BOP, badgers, foxes I may be, there are times when animals have to be removed for some reason or another. Foxes are not protected, unless you count from the morons who used to hunt them, and can if opportunity arises cause havoc.

BOP are protected and it is a crime to kill them. The punishment for this should be made severe enough to make others think about the consequences if they get caught.

I was told a couple of years ago now about game keepers arriving in Yorkshire looking for work from Scotland after the law changed up there which meant that the land owner could also be prosecuted. They were letting the keepers go, which to me is obvious proof that they were aware of the methods being used.

Nature in general will manage itself extremely well. Its only when man start to manipulate the countryside for their own ends that issues arise and clashes become inevitable.
 
Gary Coyle said:
Theyre all gods creatures mate and as for the "Vermin" argument im pretty sure the 2 week old leveritt plucked up by the "protected" bird of prey thinks that said bird is Vermin also.

Seriously not having a pop at you or your stance on this mate but who are we to decide whats right and wrong, fox hunting was banned because it was barbaric, how is snaring a Fox and killing or leaving it to die any less barbaric

Just my 2 cents as i think we should be looking after all creatures equally and not kill any unless absolutley needed, ie plague, food.

Im a big softie and love animals
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So do I Gary, my favourites are the best hunters of the lot, stoats and weasels. If man had never interfered then you would be right and nature would balance itself. But that did not and does not happen mate.
 
Gaz J said:
Nature in general will manage itself extremely well. Its only when man start to manipulate the countryside for their own ends that issues arise and clashes become inevitable.
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Then why dont we let it do just that.
 
fracster said:
So do I Gary, my favourites are the best hunters of the lot, stoats and weasels. If man had never interfered then you would be right and nature would balance itself. But that did not and does not happen mate.
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Same reply as above Ade, how about we have a Cull of the human race, who was it that said we need a third world war to cleanse the human race.............................................Oh yeah, that was me.
 
Gary Coyle said:
Then why dont we let it do just that.
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Because it is too late pal, we have cut down swathes of woodland and forest to create crop growing fields to feed us. We have interfered for centuries and will not stop doing so. However, a more wildlife friendly way of managing woodland,estates, forests ect is beginning to happen more and more.

I`ll give you a free day out next spring,see for yourself what we are doing.

It is now beer time, but I will return to this thread,i`m more than happy to discuss the good and bad points of shooting, there are two sides to it bud.
 
ST4 said:
I have no issue with fox hunting, bull fighting etc. It doesn't effect me personally.
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I find both rather unpleasant to be honest.
 
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