Studio shutter speeds when shooting little uns.

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My bog standard setup is 125th at F8.

The other day whilst taking shots of a nipper - crawling age, I started to wonder if I'd be better upping the shutter speed. The little monkey was everywhere :)

So, what shutter speed do you shoot at in similar situations?
 
I'm not a studio photographer, so sorry if I'm barking up the wrong tree, but if you're in a studio, isn't the exposure time more decided by the length of the time your lights are actually flashing for, rather than the shutter speed? Obviously if the shutter speed was ridiculously long it wouldn't hold up, but for most 'normal' speeds....?
 
The same, f/8 at 1/125. Patience is the key when it comes to the little ones.
 
I'm not a studio photographer, so sorry if I'm barking up the wrong tree, but if you're in a studio, isn't the exposure time more decided by the length of the time your lights are actually flashing for, rather than the shutter speed? Obviously if the shutter speed was ridiculously long it wouldn't hold up, but for most 'normal' speeds....?

Shutter speed is confined to the necessary sync speeds supported by the heads.

Generally speaking, you set the shutter speed and aperture to what you require and adjust the lights to compensate. Totally controlled.

F8 is usually selected as it's probably about the sharpest point of the lens.
 
The same, f/8 at 1/125. Patience is the key when it comes to the little ones.

Patience is fine. However this little chap was having none of it. We're talking massive motion blurs but you can definately tell that his hands were on the move (some of the time) :)
 
Patience is fine. However this little chap was having none of it. We're talking massive motion blurs but you can definately tell that his hands were on the move (some of the time) :)

I make the parents do most of the work, I tell them that as soon as the child moves, they move. The last one I did, the dad was sweating buckets, it was all good fun though and I got some really good shots. Best thing is to give them something to play with or get a parent to try and keep them amused by doing stupid stuff behind your back. I've not yet experimented with going any faster on the shutter speed.
 
I make the parents do most of the work, I tell them that as soon as the child moves, they move. The last one I did, the dad was sweating buckets, it was all good fun though and I got some really good shots. Best thing is to give them something to play with or get a parent to try and keep them amused by doing stupid stuff behind your back. I've not yet experimented with going any faster on the shutter speed.

Cheers bud. Thanks for the input.
 
Patience is fine. However this little chap was having none of it. We're talking massive motion blurs but you can definately tell that his hands were on the move (some of the time) :)

As mentioned, you gotta make sure there is something more interesting than your light stands going on behind you..:clap::bonk::wave:....:shrug:
 
I'm not a studio photographer, so sorry if I'm barking up the wrong tree, but if you're in a studio, isn't the exposure time more decided by the length of the time your lights are actually flashing for, rather than the shutter speed? Obviously if the shutter speed was ridiculously long it wouldn't hold up, but for most 'normal' speeds....?

:thumbs:
Most of the time the shutter speed doesn't matter - the exception being if you have a ridiculously long shutter speed and/or their is far too much ambient light.

It's easy enough to check, just set the exposure up for flash (say your 1/125th at f/8 and then turn off the flash, but leave the modelling lamps on (if you use them).
Take a pic and look at the screen- what have you got?
If it's black or nearly black then it's fine because the shutter speed is OK for the level of ambient light. If there's real detail there then you need to get rid of some of the ambient light, or increase the shutter speed - although it's very doubtful that you could increase it by enough to make a real difference.

And if you get an occasional bit of movement blur in the hands, so what? It makes the shot look more real
 
Agree with Garry - a bit of blur looks better.

What you need is sharp faces, and they tend not to move so fast. Trying to freeze moving extremeties like hands would require such a high shutter speed (assuming you're not using flash) that you'd be seriously compromised on either f/number or ISO.
 
And if you get an occasional bit of movement blur in the hands, so what? It makes the shot look more real

Fair enough. I think this point makes me feel happier. It was mainly his hands that were windmilling :)

Thanks guys.
 
As mentioned, you gotta make sure there is something more interesting than your light stands going on behind you..:clap::bonk::wave:....:shrug:

I'm seriously considering a hat with something in a wire bouncing above me.
 
1/125th and f8 are my usual settings but I can up it to 1/250th for jumping shots etc
 
A flurry of 1/250ths at F8.

At 250ths I'm guessing you'll get very little motion blur. I'm also assuming that you chaps are shooting some action shots?
 
A flurry of 1/250ths at F8.

At 250ths I'm guessing you'll get very little motion blur. I'm also assuming that you chaps are shooting some action shots?

As I said before, increasing the shutter speed will make no difference at all unless the level of ambient light is very high.

In most situations, all that using the highest possible shutter speed does is to increase the risk of the shutter not being fully open when the flash fires - a radio trigger fitted with a slightly low battery is all that that needs - why take the risk when there is no benefit?
 
As I said before, increasing the shutter speed will make no difference at all unless the level of ambient light is very high.

In most situations, all that using the highest possible shutter speed does is to increase the risk of the shutter not being fully open when the flash fires - a radio trigger fitted with a slightly low battery is all that that needs - why take the risk when there is no benefit?

I'm sure I'm being thick here. I understand that you can cut out the ambient light (if brightish) with a faster shutter speed.

I'm happy with your statement about risks.

However, if the shutter speed is sync'd (no flat batteries etc), why would this not help rule out subject blur?

Sorry for being thick.

Oooooo and Garry, what is the max sync speed of the Elite Pro 300?
 
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I'm sure I'm being thick here. I understand that you can cut out the ambient light (if brightish) with a faster shutter speed.

I'm happy with your statement about risks.

However, if the shutter speed is sync (no flat batteries etc), why would this not help rule out subject blur?

Sorry for being thick.

If you are using flash, the shutter speed doesn't make any difference because the effective shutter speed is the flash duration - and that is generally either fast, very fast, or extremely fast.

So unless your ambient light is high (which it might well be during the day - draw the curtains) the shutter speed won't make any odds. However, if the ambient is high, you can reduce any bluring/ghosting by raising the shutter speed as high as you can up to the max x-sync speed. To check how much ambient light you've got, set your expoosure for flash and then switch the flash off and take a pic. It should be dark, even black. If the image is quite prominent, that will contribute to ambient bluring.

Obviously if you're not using flash, then shutter speed is everything.

Edit: google how a focal plane shutter works, to see how x-sync fits into the shutter cycle.
 
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F8 is usually selected as it's probably about the sharpest point of the lens.

Not always. Given enough power, you can shoot at F16/F22, which is what I would recommend for children. Focussing is far less critical with a wider DoF, which is very important when the little rugrats are moving about the place.

I usually use the fastest I can, normally 1/250, but the 5dII prefers 1/160th.
 
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If you are using flash, the shutter speed doesn't make any difference because the effective shutter speed is the flash duration - and that is generally either fast, very fast, or extremely fast.

So unless your ambient light is high (which it might well be during the day - draw the curtains) the shutter speed won't make any odds. However, if the ambient is high, you can reduce any bluring/ghosting by raising the shutter speed as high as you can up to the max x-sync speed. To check how much ambient light you've got, set your expoosure for flash and then switch the flash off and take a pic. It should be dark, even black. If the image is quite prominent, that will contribute to ambient bluring.

Obviously if you're not using flash, then shutter speed is everything.

Edit: google how a focal plane shutter works, to see how x-sync fits into the shutter cycle.

Thanks for that - very helpful.

So, with regards to flash speed, how fast is "fast, very fast, or extremely fast"

My mind is also now thinking that if the ambient light is under control, flashses are working fine - is it possible to capture fast moving motion in a studio?

Sorry for the elementary questions, but this is so interesting. I will certainly test the ambient light when I get chance. Maybe it is the ambient light that caused the odd blur....
 
Thanks for that - very helpful.

So, with regards to flash speed, how fast is "fast, very fast, or extremely fast"

My mind is also now thinking that if the ambient light is under control, flashses are working fine - is it possible to capture fast moving motion in a studio?

Sorry for the elementary questions, but this is so interesting. I will certainly test the ambient light when I get chance. Maybe it is the ambient light that caused the odd blur....

You're welcome Dav :)

If you are shooting with relatively low powered flash in a bright room with daylight streaming in, you will definitely get ambient blur which is when you need to a) use the highest x-sync speed you can, or b) reduce the ambient light by drawing the curtains. Bear in mind that, as Garry says, with most radio triggers you cannot use the camera's theoretical max x-sync because they introduce a fractional delay and you'll get a dark band at the bottom of the frame as the second shutter curtain begins to close.

Flash durations are usually published. Very roughly studio flash is normally around 1/1000sec (say 1/800sec to 1/2000sec) and stays fairly constant with changing power output as they discharge their capacitors differently to hot-shoe guns, which helps to maintain constant colour temperature.

Hot shoes guns are usually around 1/1000sec at full power but the way they reduce power output is by shortening the flash duration and this is pretty linear except at very low power, so half power would be 1/2000sec, quarter power 1/4000sec and so on. They will often go down to 1/40,000 ar 1/128th power.

Colour temperature also varies a bit with flash duration on hot-shoe guns, getting more blue with shorter times. Some guns are better than others but I recently discovered the little know fact that Canon guns moderate the white balance automatically to adjust for this. *

* Which explains why when Garry says the colour temperature varies with hot-shoe flash, and I say it doesn't becuase I've tried it, that's the reason. Sorry Gaz :D Either way it's not usually a big deal really and if absolutely accurate colour is vital, you should always do a custom white balance or shoot Raw and correct in post. I digress... ;)
 
You're welcome Dav :)

Bear in mind that, as Garry says, with most radio triggers you cannot use the camera's theoretical max x-sync because they introduce a fractional delay and you'll get a dark band at the bottom of the frame as the second shutter curtain begins to close.

I've never had that problem with Pocket Wizards or Yongnuo RF602s at max sync. The 5dII occasionally causes this at 1/200th, but that's its' own problem with its' big curtain.

Edit - I do keep AA/AAA lithiums in my triggers though. I think weak batteries can have this effect.
 
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I've got Bowens gemini 500's which have a flash duration of 1/900th.

Generally I shoot in a darkened room with the modelling lights on, so does that mean I can shoot faster than 1/250th. Somewhere in my head I've got this as the max for using flash (shutter starts to become visible or is that from my film days).
 
Nope, no faster than the fastest sync speed of you camera. Otherwise you will catch the second curtain and get a black bar (if 100% flash) or an ambient lit bar (if mixing flash and ambient).

There are a few tricks for cheating it, based on running an on camera ttl gun triggering an optical slave attached to radio trigger transmitter.

Discussion here: http://www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/discuss/72157604724354633/
 
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Right, let's try to put this to bed once and for all...
However, if the shutter speed is sync'd (no flat batteries etc), why would this not help rule out subject blur?
Because whatever shutter speed you select, the flash is faster than the shutter, the only function of the shutter is to be open when the flash fires.
So, how fast is the flash? Well, that depends on the flash and the power it's set to, but you have the Lencarta ElitePro 300 so let's deal with that. The flash duration at full power is 1/2000th second, that's a t.5 time which means that half of the power is discharged in 1/2000th of a second, the other half takes longer and makes little difference to the exposure. So what you have is a very bright, very short flash. Then the shutter closes. While the shutter is still open it will accept some ambient light but normally it is nowhere near as bright as the flash and so makes no or very little difference to the exposure.
Oooooo and Garry, what is the max sync speed of the Elite Pro 300?
It will synch at any speed, and so will any other flash head. The limitation is your camera shutter, and any delay in the radio trigger, not the flash head.


F8 is usually selected as it's probably about the sharpest point of the lens.

Not always. Given enough power, you can shoot at F16/F22, which is what I would recommend for children. Focussing is far less critical with a wider DoF, which is very important when the little rugrats are moving about the place.
Shooting at f/16 (not F16) is just about acceptable with a full frame DSLR or 35mm film. If you use f/16 on a cropped frame DSLR then you'll get an overall loss of sharpeness caused by diffraction limitation, and the smaller the aperture, the worse the problem becomes. And f/22 is a very bad idea, unless you're shooting with something bigger, a medium format for example.

Why do manufacturers make these small apertures available when it's a bad idea to use them? Marketing I guess, because people think it's good to have lots of features. I have a car that will do 150Mph, that doesn't mean that I should drive at that speed.

My mind is also now thinking that if the ambient light is under control, flashses are working fine - is it possible to capture fast moving motion in a studio?
I'm not sure what you mean. As I've said before, a bit of movement blur in hands or hair is often a good thing because it makes the shot look more real. I remember, some years ago, when I bought a top model supercamera with 1/8000th sec shutter speed, I took some shots in the pouring rain. The high shutter speed froze the rain and made it look like icicles or bullets, it didn't look like rain at all because there was no movement blur.
If you want more blur then turn the flash power down, because lower power settings increase the duration of the flash.
If you want less blur then you're stuffed, unless you use hotshoe flashes instead, at low power, because hotshoe flashes always fire at full power but use IGBT controllers to cut the flash off early, which makes the flash duration very short. But you will have to use very high ISO, with the quality loss that this brings, if you want to use hotshoe flashes at low power.
At present you can't achieve very short flash durations with studio flash because the only one that uses IGBT controllers is the Alien Bees Einstein which isn't available in this country and which seems to have issues anyway, leaving you with a choice of hotshoe flash or hotshoe flash - or a small amount of subject blur with studio flash.

Hope this helps
Edit: Crossed with various other posts, notably Richard's
 
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1/250th here too and I have a shutter across the window so I can actually make the room dark enough to use as a dark room :) I then have several small lights sunk into the ceiling and can switch them on separately giving just enough light so you don't trip over. Oh and I have a tiny Ikea spot light on the ceiling which I can point anywhere and use as a focus assist light
 
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BTW, here's an (extreme) example of a shot where I think that movement blur helps.
snooker.jpg

This was taken on a RZ67 which made it easy to blur the background, but more to the point I got the guy to hit the white ball extremely hard and used an old Strobex flash generator for the flash because Strobex flashes had a very long flash duration
 
Shooting at f/16 (not F16) is just about acceptable with a full frame DSLR or 35mm film. If you use f/16 on a cropped frame DSLR then you'll get an overall loss of sharpeness caused by diffraction limitation, and the smaller the aperture, the worse the problem becomes. And f/22 is a very bad idea, unless you're shooting with something bigger, a medium format for example.

I have 40 inch canvases that are perfectly sharp off a Canon 50 1.4 at 'F16'.

Better to have two more stops DoF and have a higher likelihood of getting them in focus.
 
This thread has been of great interest to me. Thanks to all those that have shed 'light' on the subject.

So, in summary -

If I control ambient light - for arguments sake to zero, the exposure speed is based on the duration of the flash and therefore it is possible to take fast moving action in the studio (if that is what you want.

Correct?
 
Correct. Flash duration is your 'time' exposure.

btw, what's a 'Dafydd' doing in the Cotswolds? Come on home boyyo!

Wow - there's a story. Left when I was 18, then the Midlands, Thames Valley, Wirral, North Yorks, Bristol and then..... the Cotswolds :)

My 3yr old daughter is sitting next to me amazed at the 'smiles' (icons) :)

Anyway, back to lighting - I'm happy.
 
X-sync is easy to understand once you know how a focal plane shutter works, as fitted to all DSLRs.

There are two shutter curtains/blinds which run from top to bottom, and they only ever run at one fixed speed and the whole cycle takes much longer than the effective exposure time. The first curtain begins and uncovers the sensor, then after the required time, the second curtain starts and covers it over again. They move pretty damn fast but at higher shutter speeds the exposure is so short that it needs to end before the first curtain has fully uncovered the sensor. That is, speeds above the max x-sync.

So for 1/500sec or 1/1000sec etc, the second curtain begins to travel down before the first curtain has got to the bottom. In this case, at no time will the entire sensor be uncovered at any one moment, so if the flash is fired at these higher speeds only part of the sensor will be exposed. Basically for every stop that you go above the max x-sync speed, the gap between the first and second curtains is halved, so at 1/4000sec it's down to just 1mm or 2mm wide.

It's easy enough to try it your self by setting the shutter speed manually with flash, and raising it above the max x-sync speed. You will see a dark band at the bottom that gets progressively bigger as speed increases. That is the second curtain closing, and it appears at the bottom because the image coming through the lens is upsidedown.

The max x-sync is the fastest speed at which the whole sensor is uncovered at one time, which is when the flash must be fired. In practise, there is a tiny 'window of opportunity' here and there's just a little more time available than stated to squeeze in a short flash pulse. This is what the new TTL Pocket Wizard triggers are exploiting with their clever Hypersync feature, and by carefully fine tuning the exact firing moment, they can push most cameras up a bit, from say 1/250sec to maybe 1/400sec - not much, but certainly handy.

The reason for the longer x-sync time with most other radio triggers is the processing delay, because they need to translate the camera's original firing signal into a radio transmition, then translate it back to fire the flash. This takes a little time, especially with cheap triggers on low batteries. The delay could easily be eliminated by advancing the timing of everything on a custom basis, which is what the TTL Pocket Wizards to, but that costs money.

All this is not to be confused with High Speed Sync flash (called FP flash with Nikon) which is not really flash at all in the normal sense. It is continuous light, and behaves just like continuous ambient light for exposure. What happens is the gun stops being a flash and basically turns itself into a torch which lights up just long enough for the full shutter cycle to take place. It's more like flicking the room light on, just long enough to take the picture, and flicking it off again.

With HSS the gun's power (total capacitor dump) is spread over a very much longer time, so the brightness is greatly diluted, hence range is reduced even at full power, but it's incredibly useful for a dash of fill-in in bright sun when you can't use a longer shutter speed for normal x-sync.

There are lots of slow-mo videos on the web showing the mirror/shutter mechanism in action, this one is quite good http://www.danielpeckham.com/photography/the-high-speed-sync-flash-focal-plane-shutter-relationship/
 
1/125s thats way below my cameras max sync speed, and as the flash duration is in the order of 2000th second, it will pretty much stop any kids movement dead. I shot a bridal bouquet being thrown recently, and that was stopped dead with studio flashes, at 1/125s

the only other consideration is how much any ambient light is being included in the shot, whaich as Garry says, is easy to evaluate - just turn off the flashes
 
I'd say something appropriate but I don't want to get banned :)
It's probably the slight delay caused by the radio trigger rather than the battery - but why risk using the max possible synch speed when you don't need to?
 
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